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Stevie
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posted December 04, 2016 12:31 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 00:33, 04 Dec 2016.
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artu said:
There was a thread about this not so long ago and we have first-hand witnessed a conservative Romanian declaring -as a very very normal thing- "condemn the rape but also condemn the encouragement."
Let me guess, his name was not artu.
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artu
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posted December 04, 2016 12:39 AM |
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1- We have also discussed the situation in Sweden while members from Sweden was here, their statistics also have something to do with the legal definition of rape being much more broader and they were the ones who objected to your interpretations, if being local makes all the difference.
2- It's not about being pro-rape but being looser about the definition of rape. When it comes to more traditional societies, more people have a tendency to excuse things based on "mixed signals". That's not something exclusive to Muslims. (Although they would easily be the ones carrying the flag of such a mentality.) I know enough about the Balkans to know, they are not Denmark about such things, I don't have to be born there to understand the results of the poll indeed has a significance.
You talk about numbers and statistics, yet you object to the same language of numbers when they conflict with your opinion, because of your personal memories. Your social circles may not reflect the whole picture in your country.
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Salamandre
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posted December 04, 2016 12:54 AM |
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Why make it complicate when all this is easy. Look at poll questions then ask yourself:
Do Romanian women walk alone in the night? Do they get drunk? Do they get provocative? Yes, as everywhere else in Europe. Do they get rapped in Romania?
Yes, 11/100 000/year
Sweden is 800/100 000/year and Romania is not even in the top 100 list of rape statistics by country. Case closed, poll is BS and people trying to support/explain the poll are begged to get back to common sense.
And btw, I condemn women/men getting drunk. I condemn women wearing provocative clothes. (Condemn = not agreeing with the morality of such behavior)
Do I consider that in such cases, I should/could have non consentant sex with? Not even a second.
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tSar-Ivor
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posted December 04, 2016 01:23 AM |
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300,000 men were asked over multiple countries, yet the findings mean that 27% of Europenan young men are pro rape?! In what world does that conclusion stick?!
Also it fails to define what consent is, different countries have different laws and definitions for it, does it mean verbal consent? So would you have sex with a woman who didn't outrigth and directly declare that she wants to have sex, but is clearly implying it and enjoying it and does not appear to against it in the least?
How the question should've been worded is would you have sex with a woman if she said no and would you still do it in these situations etc. The difference between the two are huge.
And I'm sorry but no, I simply don't buy into the moronic discourse that women can get raped even when they failed to resist in any sense or form or can't utter the word 'no' when they don't want to (provided their conscious ofc, and excluding immobile mutes).
So for that question: Does not say no or physically fighting back. ISN'T THIS MOST SEXUAL ENCOUNTERS?! How many times have you asked your girlfriend: want to have sex - blatantly and outright? And then recieve a direct answer?! Are you out of your minds. You can get a straight answer mbe 10% of the time.
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artu
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posted December 04, 2016 01:40 AM |
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Edited by artu at 01:43, 04 Dec 2016.
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@Sal
The poll is not about how many people get raped but about how many people have a tendency to excuse it under certain situations, those are different things.
Rape statistics depend on many factors according to the country:
1- What exactly is defined as rape? An act, one country labels as minor sexual assault, the other can label as rape.
2- How many of the victims report it. Again, in more traditional societies, many rape victims stay silent because of the social stigma.
3- The overall efficiency of the legal system and number of convictions.
How people think about what constitutes or what leads to a rape is a different subject though, that's about how they expect people to behave, it's about what underlines their norms. In one country, smiling to a stranger on the street may be considered dangerously suggestive, in another, a mini-skirt, in another, going to someone's apartment alone. There is no universal norm to decide what is tempting when it shouldn't be.
Btw, my "Romanian quote" wasn't from you, it was from Stevie. And as I said, the poll is not about being pro-rape, read the circumstances given in the poll, some of those are the same things he defines as temptation. Now, do you think his opinions are overwhelmingly extreme in Romania? I'd say there are probably many more who have a similar stance. Even you or Zenofex weren't so far away in the spectrum: "Of course, it's wrong but women should be more careful." One step further from that is "Well, men are not robots, if you don't be careful (behave), there will always be predators." But, as I said before, men dont go berserk on a beach where all women are almost naked, do they? So, it's really about how they position a "suggestive behaviour," not about how much flesh they see or whatever. The poll is about that.
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Stevie
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posted December 04, 2016 02:27 AM |
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Zenofex
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posted December 04, 2016 07:41 AM |
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Quote:
When it comes to more traditional societies, more people have a tendency to excuse things based on "mixed signals". That's not something exclusive to Muslims. (Although they would easily be the ones carrying the flag of such a mentality.) I know enough about the Balkans to know, they are not Denmark about such things, I don't have to be born there to understand the results of the poll indeed has a significance.
45 years of socialist regime has changed the attitude toward women greatly in the "traditional" Balkan societies so what you say could be accurate only in very broad terms. Such polls are crap because you don't even know where and how they are made. Just like you'll get different results from such a poll if it is made in Istanbul or in the villages of the central vilayets, you'll also have significant differences if you ask someone in a big Bulgarian town or his peer in a small village (by the way, there are many Muslims in the southern and south-eastern part of Bulgaria, guess what they think on the matter). The sexual habits of the local Roma, who will be considered Bulgarians for the purposes of such a survey (they are Bulgarian citizens for sure) and who are around 8-9% of the population are also vastly different from those of the "other" Bulgarians, even the Pomaks (Islamised Bulgarians) and the local conservative Turks. Without proper context such surveys are badly manipulative at best and only enforce prejudices.
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Salamandre
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posted December 04, 2016 09:00 AM |
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I don't get how that Stevie's quote enforces the poll. I wouldn't use the "encouragement" term as I doubt any women, ever, encourages the rape but there are indeed irresponsible behaviors which can lead to such situations. It amazes me to see so many people today against a little ass whipping or an occasional slap, yet they will gift to their kids a Pad where anyone can contact, influence then meet them, or let them go almost naked to drink parties, because this is called being progressist today.
People should get it: women are physically weaker than men, and some men will take advantage from that. Protect yourself, pay attention to what you wear, what you say and who you trust. This is both valid for men and women, as in any society there are strength levels which can conflict and there is always someone out there who can harm you.
artu said:
Even you or Zenofex weren't so far away in the spectrum: "Of course, it's wrong but women should be more careful." One step further from that is "Well, men are not robots, if you don't be careful (behave), there will always be predators."
So what? When women are socially stronger, they will socially rape any men without regret. The predator concept is applicable to any gender. It's a matter of strength levels and it has nothing to do with a certain part of the world, but with universal human nature.
"A lady's verily is as potent as a lord's"
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Stevie
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posted December 04, 2016 09:11 AM |
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Salamandre said:
I don't get how that Stevie's quote enforces the poll.
It doesn't, but artu interprets it that way, probably because he wants to believe I'm excusing rape to point at me as an example accrediting that poll.
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artu
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posted December 04, 2016 10:29 AM |
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@Zenofex
In one-hand you say socialist regime changed things and then follow by nuances that confirms my reasons. (Not to mention that, NATO country Greece is lighter than you.) The poll doesn't say urbanized Bulgarians or ethnically pure Bulgarians or whatever, it just says Bulgaria. The very fact that there are still villages that stick with agri-cultural norms of the past WAS (part of) my point. And people with such perspective dont have to be directly living in villages either, sometimes it takes a few generations for the mentality to actually change.
Stevie & Sal
It's quite ironic that you two still dont see the link between your approach and the polls results while objecting to the poll. Yes, Stevie, like it or not, that sentence about "encouraging rape" would directly put you in the 55%, that's not my personal opinion, that's just how they would actually place you. "Justifiying" in the poll's context does not mean that the participants think, if a woman is "voluntarily going to home with someone after a party or a date" that the rapist is practicing "justice" with his actions. It means that the outcome is considered partly her fault because her actions were considered irresponsable or immoral or suggestive etc. While you are objecting to the poll's results, you are following a line of thought that is confirming the poll's results. In this very thread, I already discussed why such approach is problematic in detail, so, I wont recycle that again, it's all there after page 3.
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Salamandre
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posted December 04, 2016 10:41 AM |
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I am following the sane line of thinking that if you go out uncovered you will more likely get cold.
I know that a lot of "progressist" people in Europe stick to the nonsense that a victim is never guilty of anything, but by that logic of thinking, one can walk in the streets with closed eyes, and when it gets crushed by a car, is not his fault.
Now, if I really wanted to interpret the sense of the poll -however I stay by Zeno's side that is BS unless we know how exactly was done, the fact that Romanians think a women should not do this or that if she wants to stay safe, then Swedish -for example- consider that no matter what she does, she will be safe, proves one thing: Romanians have common sense and the sense of realities while Swedish are totally delusional, when we observe that their rape statistic is 80 times greater than in Romania.
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artu
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posted December 04, 2016 11:00 AM |
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Yes, you continueously ignore Sweden has a broader legal definition of rape and women feel more comfortable reporting it though.
Your analogy is completely flawed since getting a cold is caused by the weather and the circumstances wont change no matter what your mentality is, it's nature. On the other hand, a cultural norm which suggests it's perfectly okay for a woman to go to someone's house (just like a man could) at night and then decide to leave and a cultural norm that suggests "women shouldnt be visiting houses of people they are not close with" produces different expectations about how a woman is supposed to exist in a society. Let me give you an example, in a small Anatolian town, a woman wouldnt even imagine going out at night, meeting someone alone, becoming friends and heading to his house, to her that would be as distant as moon travel. So, her chances of getting raped in a stranger's house is zero. Now, when you know that, is your comment "what a precautious, wise environment, if I ever have a daughter, I wish she'd live there." No, it's not. You think it is primitive and it really is. So, how is the rest any different?
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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AlHazin
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النور
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posted December 04, 2016 11:24 AM |
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If I may put something on this garnished table I'd say that laws tend to be made in some countries without keeping in mind an important factor which is about who has to follow them : humans.
Humans follow rules and laws in order to maintain a certain behaviour that is best suted for all the society, yet humans ain't robots and will for sure at a point or another violate it (be it a small or a big violation). Rape is never to be excused, but when women act in a certain way in a certain society, consequences are ofcourse to be feared. If humans don't live naked in society (and that has nothing to do with temperatures, we dress for pudeur purposes) it's not for no reason.
The way you post in HC is the way members will see you, is what is written in the FAQ I recently read. In society, people will judge you the way you act, you speak, you dress, you walk, you behave. This human habit of judging by what we see is normal, denying what our senses sense is indeed nonsense. It's just that these scandinavians want sometimes to improve human nature which is impossible, as if they wanted to become elves. They sometimes even make boys pee like girls for sex equality, yay. Anyways, if you speak like Trump you'll be seen as what people think of him. If you speak like Mandela people will consider like Mandela. Then again if you behave like you want a realtionship, you'll of course get punks running after you thinking they can have it their way. Because love, sexuality, and all what is related to that is most of the time if not all, is dealt with subtly, you don't say you want this or that, you suggest it by your behaviour.
It's a problem of definition, which will, of course, remain as long as we are humans, hence forever.
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Zenofex
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posted December 04, 2016 11:26 AM |
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Quote:
In one-hand you say socialist regime changed things and then follow by nuances that confirms my reasons. (Not to mention that, NATO country Greece is lighter than you.) The poll doesn't say urbanized Bulgarians or ethnically pure Bulgarians or whatever, it just says Bulgaria. The very fact that there are still villages that stick with agri-cultural norms of the past WAS (part of) my point. And people with such perspective dont have to be directly living in villages either, sometimes it takes a few generations for the mentality to actually change.
If you stick to the "all or nothing" approach, you're right. Let's get a bit more granular though. Small and largely closed societies like those in the villages remain unaffected by changes, including those imposed by major ideologies, however the majority of the population was certainly affected. Among other things, during the socialist times many people moved from villages to towns and cities (for better or worse) which gradually changed the overall mindset. If you want to find a proof for something not-so-progressive, you'll find it in literally every country in the world. Make this poll in some puritan English village and let's see how bright the UK will turn to be. So, with no context who was asked these questions, this map is worth just as much as a kid's drawing. There is no "just Bulgaria" as there are no "pure Bulgarians". I guess you won't be happy with some poll results about Turkey if it turns out that the poll was done exclusively in Kurdistan or in some AKP-loving province and then labeled "just Turkey", no?
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Stevie
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posted December 04, 2016 11:27 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 11:53, 04 Dec 2016.
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artu said:
Yes, Stevie, like it or not, that sentence about "encouraging rape" would directly put you in the 55%, that's not my personal opinion, that's just how they would actually place you.
It can be baffling how utterly wrong you are sometimes. I'd waste my breath trying to explain it to you.
Fun fact for you though, when I saw that poll's question reading "having sexual intercourse without consent may be justified", in my mind I crossed out every option by default. Because no matter what you believe my opinion is (just the arrogance to claim that, mind-boggling), what I think with regards to rape is that there is no justification for it under the sun. But that's not to say that someone has to be oblivious to the context and factors leading to rape. I think Corribus hit the nail on the head when he said this:
Corribus said:
Yet, it's still a fair question to ask whether you would have still been robbed if you had left the door closed and locked. In criminology there is an interest in understanding why crimes happen, even with the universal acknowledgment that crimes are wrong. This does not mean victims are being blamed. Understanding the psychological motivation behind crimes can assist in better prevention strategies.
And yes, everything has been said before, and now like then you have to insist on your straw man to make it appear you have a point. You don't. You will still continue to believe that victims instigating or enabling rape is the same thing as blaming them for the perpetrator's act of raping, because that turkish turban renders your mind so impenetrable that one could only wish it got raped by logic or even just common sense.
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Salamandre
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posted December 04, 2016 11:35 AM |
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Sorry, but your only argument is this continuously "Sweden has a broaden rape view" -which is very disputable btw, without precise data to support it, what tells you that Romanians don't report based on same criteria? Then you ignore my comment about Romania being 59 on the whole list of rape statistics, far behind any country in Europe.
The problem is that the poll suggest Romanians are more likely to rape women who get in specific situations, as drunk, lightly clothed, provocative behavior. My argument is that there is none of that, as a) statistics show Romania is on the safe side, b) I know the culture of my country, and when a country is not exposed to massive immigration, its societal views and concepts do not change so easily. And sorry, one of my major downfalls after moving in France is how superficial, bad mannered and rude are men here towards women.
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artu
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posted December 04, 2016 11:36 AM |
- penalty applied by Corribus on 04 Dec 2016. |
Edited by artu at 12:02, 04 Dec 2016.
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AlHazin said:
Then again if you behave like you want a relationship, you'll of course get punks running after you thinking they can have it their way.
1- You may change your mind.
2- You may want a relationship or simple flirting but not sexual intercourse at that moment yet, they don't have to come as an all in one package.
3- You may indeed seek sexual intercourse and dress or behave accordingly but not specifically with "the punk thinking he's entitled to take it as a personal come on."
All of your reasoning can be applied to defend the burka as well. (And it has been.) Senses are senses, no need to agitate them... The truth is, it's all about conditioning, a leg in a mini-skirt is the same leg in a beach but it doesn't draw half the attention. Same with behavioral patterns, if you are not thought that they entitle you to something, you act accordingly.
stevie said:
And yes, everything has been said before, and now like then you have to insist on your straw man to make it appear you a point. You don't. You will still continue to believe that victims instigating or enabling rape is the same thing as blaming them for the perpetrator's act of raping, because that turkish turban renders your mind so impenetrable that one could only wish it got raped by logic or even just common sense.
Nice to see you returned to your old empty rhetoric, Stevie. I know you are under the illusion that it's impressive but it only demonstrates the tip of the actual small-minded bigot you are. You quote Corribus as if his position and yours are the same but he doesn't talk about "encouragement" or he doesn't call the victims "enablers" which makes all the difference that you are clueless about. A woman does not qualify as "an enabler" when she walks alone or when dresses like this or that, these are her RIGHTS as well as yours. When you have rights, it's not something that should just stay on paper, if you go, "oh, yes they have a legal right but any sane woman would predict they will be raped by doing so" than, de facto, it is not an actual right, it is just a fantasy. And social norms on this subject DO change, there is actual progress (comparatively relative) everywhere, a century ago things were worse and a lot more was labeled as "enabling." What you assume as common sense is, once again, not common sense but sticking to the past. It's the sense of "the commoners" from a left-behind/soon to be left behind dynamic for good.
@Zenofex
UK is already in the poll. Are you suggesting they deliberately picked not proportional samples from urban UK and rural Bulgaria cause that sounds very unlikely. Urbanized norms having an older history there hence becoming more common is much more likely.
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AlHazin
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posted December 04, 2016 11:58 AM |
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What you say is true Artu, but humans are not all "good", they don't all use their common sense, and some will always try to take advantage of you when they think they can.
Of course every woman who dresses like a prostitute is not going to get raped, of course every woman who dresses like an amish is not going to not get raped. But "Chance favorized the best prepared", you get it? No one here is willing to rape anyone, but we are all aware that favorizing some behaviours will lead women and sometimes men too, to unwanted situations.
Rape ain't to be justified, it is against nature. It has always been seen as a crime, even within religions. Those who justify it by religion are just using it for their puposes, this ain't religion, this is just tribal thniking.
For my part, arabs were already rude against women, and used to fully cover them before Islam.
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artu
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posted December 04, 2016 12:11 PM |
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Sal said:
Then you ignore my comment about Romania being 59 on the whole list of rape statistics, far behind any country in Europe.
They constantly change and Romania is not the lowest or anything like that: statistics by Country
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Salamandre
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posted December 04, 2016 12:27 PM |
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Ok, lets take 2009 then because 2010 result is empty for Romania.
Rape per 100 000 persons in Europe
Romania : 4,7
Denmark: 6,4
Switzerland: 8,7
Netherlands: 11,2
Germany: 8,9
France: 16,2
Austria: 9,3
Belgium: 27,7
Spain: 4,5
Portugal: 3,5
UK: 17,
Sweden: 63!
Iceland: 24
Norway: 20,6
Ireland: 8,5
Bulgaria: 3,3
Hungary: 2,3
The two countries in red in the poll, Romania and Hungary, show among the lowest rape statistics, far behind every of the "civilized" EU countries, except Spain and Portugal (Hungary still the lowest followed by Bulgaria, also in the red)
Is your link, enjoy.
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