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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted December 04, 2016 12:39 PM |
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Quote:
Are you suggesting they deliberately picked not proportional samples from urban UK and rural Bulgaria cause that sounds very unlikely.
I'm suggesting that you don't know what they picked and I highly doubt that they went to all possible communities, ethnicities, religious groups, etc. to ask them for their opinion. A proper survey will probably paint the European map with lighter and darker spots in every country. Right now you have one big flat bull**** pretending for authority.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 04, 2016 01:07 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:08, 04 Dec 2016.
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@Sal
I only shared that to show that your claim of "Romania is lowest" is inaccurate. Other than that, I already explained that the poll is not about rape rates but about the ratio of people who loosely excuse it under certain situations. A country can have less rape crimes, yet its average citizen can be more traditional about what constitutes a rape, that's not a contradiction. Turkey's rape rates are lower than any European country according to the same statistics but had it been included in the poll, it would most probably be among the red states because there are still many people who think that if a woman does this or that (check poll list), she had it coming, although they are not rapists themselves.
You also seem to be mixing apples and oranges about traditional societies respecting women and not being rude in general with the notion of a woman being considered a tramp. Yes, conservative people are respectful to women in a certain way but as long as they follow an unwritten code. If they are labeled as tramps though, rules change.
Zenofex said:
A proper survey will probably paint the European map with lighter and darker spots in every country.
Yes, that would be more accurate and meaningful in every way since such things usually have not much to do with nation but about rural norms versus urban norms. Still, in some countries urban norms are more sunk in and what we see can be the result of that.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 04, 2016 01:28 PM |
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artu said:
@SalYes, conservative people are respectful to women in a certain way but as long as they follow an unwritten code. If they are labeled as tramps though, rules change.
And this conclusion is based on what?
Respect is earned toward the women as gender, not toward a specific behavior of a woman. There are not unwritten codes in Romania specifying that women should be respected only if they do this or that. They are respected because women, and should be protected in any circumstance as they are physically weaker.
I remember you were finding excuses for the cowards leaving their women at home while running in Europe. And now you see why we disagree on this.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 04, 2016 01:41 PM |
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Quote:
Respect is earned toward the women as gender, not toward a specific behavior of a woman. There are not unwritten codes in Romania specifying that women should be respected only if they do this or that. They are respected because women, and should be protected in any circumstance as they are physically weaker.
That is your wishful thinking, not the sociological norm or the historical facts. You still don't understand all this talk about "enabling" is quite self-evident of what I'm talking about. Unless you have some conspiracy theory involving the European Commission trying to put dirt on Romania for some reason, 55 percent is not something to just skip by.
And people fleeing war and chaos is completely another issue with very different dynamics, the argument there was that the male refugees functioned as scouts or they were escaping conscription which is not the case for women (or the old), that's not an excuse, although it is quite irrelevant.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted December 04, 2016 01:49 PM |
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artu said:
@Sal
... traditional societies respecting women and not being rude in general with the notion of a woman being considered a tramp. Yes, conservative people are respectful to women in a certain way but as long as they follow an unwritten code. If they are labeled as tramps though, rules change.
Yes, they do. But I would argue there is a difference betwen a "burn the witch" mentality and a "it's ok to rape her" mentality. Not to deffend one over the other but I believe this is related to the role of women in the community and with social mobility.
We are quite conservative here in Portugal (specially in the rural areas) but the strong blood/community laces will not enable you to rape your second-coisin with help of other relatives. This doesn't mean she will not be severelly punished, means mostly that the other women have a word to say about you having sex with the "tramp". Ostracism and verbal violence will do most of the work cause it is as bad for a man to be labeled a sexual predator as it is for a woman to be labeled easy, if you want to "find love" in that community you will not do it.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 04, 2016 02:04 PM |
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Edited by artu at 14:05, 04 Dec 2016.
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Look, the key here is "without consent" and "enabling." Now, let's take a look at some of the examples; if you don't want your car to be stolen lock the door, if it's a cold weather, wear a sweater etc... Now, do I really have to spell out the difference between:
- Push the lock button.
and
- Don't walk alone at night, dress properly (according to us), don't smile to people you meet at parties, don't flirt unless you're willing to go all the way, etc...
One is a simple motion that takes seconds while the other is practically reorganizing your life according to an illegitimate threat. And if you categorize refusing that as "enabling" than I do not define that as "respect" in the true sense of the word.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted December 04, 2016 02:11 PM |
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Yet this :
artu said:
- Don't walk alone at night, dress properly (according to us), don't smile to people you meet at parties, don't flirt unless you're willing to go all the way, etc...
remains the only effective way of avoiding women to get raped. Even if it ain't the way it should be, these are the facts dear artu. That explains the scandinavian high scores compared to Romania or Bulgaria.
(Evil) men will be (evil) men.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted December 04, 2016 02:12 PM |
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I'm pretty sure even if you do those things it's no guarantee to avoid getting assaulted.
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted December 04, 2016 02:16 PM |
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Edited by AlHazin at 14:17, 04 Dec 2016.
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Just like I said in my previous posts, it only highly reduces the chances.
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Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted December 04, 2016 02:34 PM |
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artu said:
the key here is "without consent"...
That's also what I'm talking about. It looks to me that countries where women's are religiously segregated to a secondary submissive role (I admit I'm thinking of muslim countries) have a "sex without consent" punishment mentality you will not find here, we will for sure "burn the witch" but not gang rape her.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 04, 2016 02:43 PM |
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@AlHazin
No, it's not "fate" that if you do those things you'll probably get raped. The more people accept these things as regular behavior and not "enabling", the less likely they will become a pathway to rape and this is already something we can witness comparing different standards. Yes, rape ratio will never hit zero but that's not because the only alternative is that women should live like they are in bunkers.
I was reading a Henry James (1843 - 1916) story once and there was this young man who was interested in a girl, she is kind of an outcast and she is the center of town gossip. One day, he sees her going alone at night, meeting a man, simply taking a walk with him and smiling to a joke he made. His first reaction is to approve of all the gossip about what a "bad girl" she is and lose all "good intentions" of marrying her. Seems so distant now, doesn't it? Norms change, they are not fate.
It's better to be a woman in Scandinavia than to be a woman in Afghanistan, the fact that they report more about rape doesn't change that. Also, the difference you are talking about is like 100.000/5 to 100.000/40 etc. anyway, it's not significant enough to construct "precatious" norms upon.
@Bloodsucker
Well, rather than punishment as rape, we are talking about normalizing it in the sense of "if you leave your car unlocked" mentality, which is not much different in Western conservatives either. I have heard it spoken many times. Gangrape is usually about wolf pack declaring territory psychology and you also have it in the West, especially in countries where gangs are common.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 04, 2016 02:44 PM |
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artu said:
dress properly (according to us),
Sorry but the "us" here implies the society, composed of men and women, of fathers and mothers. And as we are not in Muslim countries, the standard not provocative clothing contains almost anything below THIS, which, as mother, no one should ever consider for her daughter, for both brain and body safety.
A short dress is NOT provocative in an European society and in general men have not any longer any word on how women should dress, if we skip the religious communities. We talk here about provocative only, and this is not an unknown variable.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 04, 2016 02:52 PM |
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The dress code part is much worse in Muslim countries, that's obvious. But a dress considered "provocative" is not always extreme as the one in your link in every part of Europe. Europe (or U.S.) is not one big metropolis. Still, it's much less of an issue, that's true.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted December 04, 2016 02:53 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 15:23, 04 Dec 2016.
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artu said:
Nice to see you returned to your old empty rhetoric, Stevie. I know you are under the illusion that it's impressive but it only demonstrates the tip of the actual small-minded bigot you are. You quote Corribus as if his position and yours are the same but he doesn't talk about "encouragement" or he doesn't call the victims "enablers" which makes all the difference that you are clueless about. A woman does not qualify as "an enabler" when she walks alone or when dresses like this or that, these are her RIGHTS as well as yours. When you have rights, it's not something that should just stay on paper, if you go, "oh, yes they have a legal right but any sane woman would predict they will be raped by doing so" than, de facto, it is not an actual right, it is just a fantasy. And social norms on this subject DO change, there is actual progress (comparatively relative) everywhere, a century ago things were worse and a lot more was labeled as "enabling." What you assume as common sense is, once again, not common sense but sticking to the past. It's the sense of "the commoners" from a left-behind/soon to be left behind dynamic for good.
Nice to see you too returning to blatant insults, artu. I know you're under the impression of a false sense of superiority and eloquence, but we both know better than that, especially on such occasions when you show your true colors. I quoted Corribus precisely because his analogy indicates a close similarity between his position and mine, even if he doesn't explicitly talk about "encouragement" or refer to rape victims as "enablers", choosing to be more careful with his words and using the phrase "psychological motivation", which makes the basis of his point no different than mine. A woman may qualify as "an enabler" when she walks alone or dresses like this or that depending on context DESPITE being within her rights, to return to Corribus' analogy it's within the owner's rights to leave his door open, yet that undoubtedly creates an opportunity for burglary. When you have rights, it's not something that grants you immunity to crime ever happening to you, if you go, "oh, yes, they have a legal right but any sane woman would understand that they're stacking the odds up against them by doing so" then, de facto, that is a pragmatic understanding of actual rights, not some utopic fantasy. It's true that social norms DO change, that there is actual progress (comparatively relative) everywhere, and that a century ago things were worse and a lot more was labeled as "enabling", so what of it? What you assume as common sense is, once again, not common sense but SJW rhetoric. It's the sense of "the keyboard warriors" from a left-behind/soon to be left behind dynamic for good, lol.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted December 04, 2016 02:59 PM |
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Sorry my bad, that kind of enablers exist here too and while we don't have a spread gang's mentality, in the city areas where there are gangs women fear for their safety too. But I understood you were generalizing the social punishment for percived inapropriate sexual behaviour in rural, closed communities all around the world, so I needed to make a destintion.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 04, 2016 03:10 PM |
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Edited by artu at 15:11, 04 Dec 2016.
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@Stevie
Well, I already covered the very obvious (not obvious to you, since you usually go by your "pepper is green, pepper is reality, reality is green" routine) differences between enabling car-theft and enabling rape. But it's really embarrassing watching you try to turn this around by complaining about insults when in fact, your previous post was a racial slur. My "true color" is calling you what you are based on your statements.
You were talking about condemning the "encouragement" not about understanding anything, so trying to now present such a thing as "understanding criminal behavior" is really hitting rock bottom. I don't have to be a SJW or whatever fancy term you bring from conservative mumbo jumbo to know that if a woman walks alone at night or dresses like this or that, it is nothing to condemn. Not especially when she is the victim of a brutal crime. This is not a fantasy, it's called being a civilized person, something you don't seem to manage so well.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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AlHazin
Promising
Supreme Hero
النور
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posted December 04, 2016 03:23 PM |
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artu said:
The more people accept these things as regular behavior and not "enabling", the less likely they will become a pathway to rape and this is already something we can witness comparing different standards.
That depends on cultures, mate, as I said arabs have always covered their women, while romans were more liberals on the case.
From my point of view, nothing has changed, western dudes still act like the romans, and we still act as the ancient arabs.
Rape is caused by immoral society habits, the first step is the loss of respect towards women which eventually ends in molesting them. In the first time, it has nothing to do with the way you dress. But todays society has changed. People judge you on your looks dude, even though they shouldn't, they just act like animals do.
artu said:
I was reading a Henry James (1843 - 1916) story once and there was this young man who was interested in a girl, she is kind of an outcast and she is the center of town gossip. One day, he sees her going alone at night, meeting a man, simply taking a walk with him and smiling to a joke he made. His first reaction is to approve of all the gossip about what a "bad girl" she is and lose all "good intentions" of marrying her. Seems so distant now, doesn't it? Norms change, they are not fate.
No mate ^^ it's not distant at all. Nowadays over here this is still the norm. You don't go outside for a nightwalk with a man.
Well you can, and you'll always find a man to marry with, even good ones, yet people will speak about as the ***** you are and the not-a-man your husband is. But this is a problem of cultures.
The only difference I see here in our "big" town, is that the religious factor has dissapeared. Yet, regardless of culture, if you want to make a happy wedding, you usually tend to look for the "good" girls, because life engagement is tougher than hanging out at leisure.
As a conclusion : The poll is to be taken lightly. Is there a way to reduce rape? Yeah. Punish the rapists and it will likely stop. But a good society shouldn't get to such extremes and rely on punishing. Men should just be mentally stronger than women just like they are physically, and keep masters of themselves.
Easier said than done.
Well I think I lost continuity of ideas, sorry.
____________
Nothing of value disappears from this world, it will reappear in some shape or form ^^ - Elvin
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 04, 2016 06:41 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 18:49, 04 Dec 2016.
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Artu:
artu said:
the tip of the actual small-minded bigot you are.
I think a(nother) reminder of the Code of Conduct is in order:
Quote:
1) NO insults, abuse, racism or sexism.
Insult is a remark that undermines another person. A simple way to avoid insulting people is to discuss their actions and opinions rather than their personality. For example: instead of saying who they are ("you suck" or "you are an idiot") say what you think about their opinions/actions and why ("Your post about me is wrong because I never said that heroes 4 is a bad game" or "I disagree with your opinion because centaurs have more hit points than gnolls"). This simple rephrasing strategy can resolve many conflicts and fights before they even happen, both online and in life.
Racism is any remark that associates negativity with a person or group of people based on their nationality, ethnicity, religion, race, place of origin, or skin color. Sexism is any remark that associates negativity with a person or group of people based on their gender or sexual orientation.
Since you've been warned once already, this time I have to penalize you.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted December 04, 2016 06:47 PM |
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That's a pity as artu often makes good posts -even if we disagree, maybe find one to reward as well? Should not be too difficult, imo.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted December 04, 2016 06:48 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 18:54, 04 Dec 2016.
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Whether or not he makes good posts is not at issue, and is unrelated to behavior that in this case broke Community Rules and needs to be dealt with accordingly. Hopefully Artu will take the lesson to heart and try to post in a more positive manner in the future. A good way to act when confronted by a post or member that makes you angry is to post nothing at all, or at the least put some time and space between the reading of the post and the drafting of a response. Increasing proximity lessens the chance that your words will be flavored by heated emotion rather than cold logic. This is simple thermodynamics at work.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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