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| Thread: Limbic is gone - what will happen now? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2016 12:48 PM |
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@ NimoStar
You don't want to defend something you haven't played, and you don't want to make any comparisons of bug amounts and reasons for them, before you compared patch notes AND played the games. A "complex combat" is something else than a "confusing combat"
I agree that Unreal 3 engine may not be the best-suited one for a TB game, but at least it's well documented and stable, aka tried and true.
@ verriker
3DO as a publisher was every inch as bad as 3DO - worse, considering their problem.
Still, NWC as a developer was responsible and did well, publisher or not.
Now, true, Ubisoft was responsible for hiring, but considering the problems Nival had during the development and considering their headstrongness and unwillingness to give ground (they defended the 8x10 battlefield with their life, for example, even though it was easy to see that this would more or less lead to traffic jams and limit deployment to 4 big creatures) plus the distance between Paris and Moscow, making visits adventurous, I think that the decision for Black Hole is excusable. These things also depend on availability. Keep in mind that Nival prematurely ended their own Etherlords 2 game (shipping it unfinished) in order to get the H5 deal, so availability tends to be a problem, which means, they may not have been able to get a decent one on short notice.
In short, I'm willing to accept everything in connection with H6 as an accident.
Which leaves the question whether Limbic was a sensible choice after the H6 thing, and while H6 had a copious budget, H7 hadn't, and it's not the M&M team that approves the budget (if it was for them, the sky would have been the limit, obviously), so the question was how to allocate it and which (quality) developer would have worked with it.
Keep in mind that Ubisoft isn't the only one who hires - Limbic obviously hired as well.
EDIT: I'd like to add that no developer started out great. Blizzard, for example, started modestly. On the other hand, hiring someone with a name is no guarantee either. Amplitude, for example, certainly got off to a good start with ES, DotE and EL - but, imo, starting Endless Space 2 now (got to Steam Early Access yesterday) is one hell of a mistake and may end desastrous: for one thing, there is a WEALTH of 4x space games out recently or will be out recently, for one thing, and for another, it looks like ES 2 will be a very careful evolution of ES; with everything in the bag so far it might have been a good idea to explore the TACTICAL side of battling (in general) - but of course that's just my own personal opinion here. In any case it doesn't look to me like ES 2 would be the game everone was waiting for.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 07, 2016 02:07 PM |
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Jolly Joker said:
@ verriker
3DO as a publisher was every inch as bad as 3DO - worse, considering their problem.
Still, NWC as a developer was responsible and did well, publisher or not.
well, that's really not the same difference IMHO lol
for one, 3DO never systematically meddled with the content of the games, giving NWC an almost completely free hand creatively, unlike Ubisoft which by proxy of Team Erwin sent their own ******** producers, directors, designers and dungeon masters to dictate what your balance and factions and features and skills and spells and story and lore will be (and apparently couldn't even do that on time) lol
in fact, didn't you tell me yourself, that Ubisoft's Loic Portnoe and Xavier Penin have a big blame in the bad design of Heroes 6 and 7 lol
the big crime of 3DO against Might and Magic was their get rich quick scheme to impose ruthless deadlines when push came to shove, which crippled potentially great games in lieu of lots of cheap, low quality cash grabs, which in the end NWC, although much more talented and well-oiled than all of Ubisoft's outsourcers combined, couldn't mitigate a lot better than they did (see Might and Magic 8, Might and Magic 9, Legends of Might and Magic, Chronicles, Crusaders, Warriors, Shifters, arguably even Heroes 4) lol
so, not to defend 3DO on any level, not in a million years, but Ubisoft is clearly the worse publisher in the bigger picture IMO, because 3DO at the very, very, very least did retain NWC and their prodigious talent, while Ubisoft will not only impose those same merciless deadlines, they will also interfere with the art upfront, on fundamental levels (whether creatively, or in DRM, in hiring replaceable studios)
3DO merely exploited NWC's vision and be done with it, while Ubisoft's minions seek out cronies to fashion their vision for them, and to appease fans of NWC's vision, and do it cheaply, and quickly, and without talent, which is patently stupid lol
Jolly Joker said:
Now, true, Ubisoft was responsible for hiring, but considering the problems Nival had during the development and considering their headstrongness and unwillingness to give ground (they defended the 8x10 battlefield with their life, for example, even though it was easy to see that this would more or less lead to traffic jams and limit deployment to 4 big creatures) plus the distance between Paris and Moscow, making visits adventurous, I think that the decision for Black Hole is excusable. These things also depend on availability. Keep in mind that Nival prematurely ended their own Etherlords 2 game (shipping it unfinished) in order to get the H5 deal, so availability tends to be a problem, which means, they may not have been able to get a decent one on short notice.
the blame is on Ubisoft and Nival, but first and foremost Ubisoft lol
do your due dilligence, Ubisoft, lol
identify and employ passionate top talents who might truly comprehend the series and the genre (i.e. a Jon Van Caneghem, a Sid Meier, a Bryan Reynolds or a Danny Belanger, not your conveniently placed random underlings Fabrice Cambounet, Erwin Le Breton, Romain du Waubert, Stephane Decroix, etc),
don't screw your series by repeatedly betting on the wrong horse, investigate the development partner and discover how amenable or petty they are, be able to agree on key points, then leave the job to them, if you don't trust them and can't find one to control then merely wait, or build or acquire a proprietary team that can develop games and not just garbage lore, as you were clearly able to do for Anno, Silent Hunter, The Settlers, World in Conflict and god only knows how many console franchises lol
these are endemic problems stemming from the very beginning at Ubisoft which require a decent commitment and investment, after a point it no longer matters which value a studio tweaked or not, they can't pin it on scapegoats, they simply lacked the long-term confidence, planning and sincerity to sustain the series as an organization, and all the utterly blinkered cluelessness and dopey decisions you've facepalmed at are a consequence of this lol
now, yeah, **** happens, no doubt about it, but their approach is either cynical on the one hand, or wherever it wasn't on the other, ignorant lol
we were lucky to get even one flawed but semi-decent game out of it, lol
Jolly Joker said:
Which leaves the question whether Limbic was a sensible choice after the H6 thing, and while H6 had a copious budget, H7 hadn't, and it's not the M&M team that approves the budget (if it was for them, the sky would have been the limit, obviously), so the question was how to allocate it and which (quality) developer would have worked with it.
it's not Team Erwin in charge of the budget lol,
but it's Ubisoft lol
it's still, as a whole, Ubisoft lol
notice again closely, I specifically, repeatedly blame Yves, not Erwin alone lol
btw did it really have a copious budget would you say though, I heard very different interpretations lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2016 02:59 PM |
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Verriker, for all the blame you CAN heap on Ubisoft and on the M&M team, there are two sides of the coin. The developer doesn't have to be slaves - nor don't they have to hire cheap, they have the same obligation to hire TALENT (and identify it), and they can always negotiate or simply say no. They are not forced to be out of their depth with their own or any other engine, and they are not forced to accept deadlines.
If you look closely to what happened with H7 - from Ubisoft's side, do you really think, after the initial H7 sales making even 1 addon was in any way profitable? In fact, their contract obviously included one addon no matter what, clearly something good for the developers, obviously, because someone will pay them for it, and that someone is Ubisoft.
I also think, that Ubisoft's input and preferences are
a) subject to negotiation; a good developer, knowing the games they are to build upon, would tell them in the initial talks that their ideas might be off, and give good reasons and alternatives and
b) would in spite of what "lore" dictates be able to find solutions.
That's what creative business is all about. If the producer of a serious drama tells the author and director he wants a lot of blood and boobs to attract a broad public, then it's up to the writer and director to either tell him that they won't do it, that it won't work or to find a way to make it in an artful way so that it fits.
What you cannot do is, nodding to everything, deliver crap and then say it's the producer's fault because he wanted all the crap.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 07, 2016 03:47 PM |
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Oh my, am I late to the party?
Does this mean that H7 is officially put to grave not much more than a month after 1st expansion? 
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 07, 2016 03:52 PM |
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Yes it means exactly this, they had to punish the people who supported them too, let's be serious.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 07, 2016 03:58 PM |
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alcibiades said:
Oh my, am I late to the party?
Does this mean that H7 is officially put to grave not much more than a month after 1st expansion?
2 months and 1 day to be correct. But yeah, this is how low the franchise has sunken.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 07, 2016 03:59 PM |
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Jolly Joker said:
Verriker, for all the blame you CAN heap on Ubisoft and on the M&M team, there are two sides of the coin. The developer doesn't have to be slaves - nor don't they have to hire cheap, they have the same obligation to hire TALENT (and identify it), and they can always negotiate or simply say no. They are not forced to be out of their depth with their own or any other engine, and they are not forced to accept deadlines.
check back past discussions mate, I have argued that very same position before to accuse Black Hole and Limbic many times lol
however, I will always caveat whenever I do, that to whatever degree we accuse those devs, or absolve them for the blackmail of the publishers (because realistically devs in the industry ARE typically forced/obliged to accept anticompetitive slave contracts for all intents and purposes), the overall fault still remains with Ubisoft lol
simply, shouldn't have chosen those developers lol
please acknowledge without muddying it, that the responsibility lies with Ubisoft by default, Ubisoft as the responsible entity is to blame for whatever the outcome lol
this is very clear and objective, there's no can blame or may blame or might blame, they ARE to blame, it's their creation lol
should Erwin meander down the bookies and bet $500 on a given horse, and it's the losing horse, even if it's his own horse, or if the horse lied to him, or deliberately turned around and ran the wrong way, he must not fob off responsibility for his bad bet on anyone else lol
he may whine and blame the horse, the horse may indeed very well share blame, but for the bad bet it's unambiguously on him first and foremost lol
even if Yves forced him at gunpoint to bet on a horse, then it's still Ubisoft to blame lol
Jolly Joker said:
If you look closely to what happened with H7 - from Ubisoft's side, do you really think, after the initial H7 sales making even 1 addon was in any way profitable? In fact, their contract obviously included one addon no matter what, clearly something good for the developers, obviously, because someone will pay them for it, and that someone is Ubisoft.
of course, not remotely surprising lol
however bear in mind that advanced addon contract is not inherently a good thing for the devs, it's ambiguous and neutral,
had Heroes 7 by some twist of fate proven a smashing breakout success, those terms may have wound up being relatively disadvantageous, screwing them out of a share and locking them in to a cheap deal lol
it ain't charity, Ubisoft had simply not predicted it would wind up such a complete and utter bomb, simple as that lol
even if Limbic actually did and deliberately swindled Ubisoft, Ubisoft must be blamed for being swindled and putting out a garbage product lol
Ubisoft is merely out to survive, profit and secure whatever it (often wrongly) thinks is the best deal, not to be benevolent lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2016 04:20 PM |
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Verriker, you TOTALLY miss the point. And that point is, that Ubisoft is the part that pays the bills and the developer is the part responsible for most of the game. They simply ARE.
Now, true: if you hire someone and that someone is inadequate - you are the one who did the hiring, that much is true. But what your little horse race bet analogy WRONGLY conveys is, that there IS a winner, that there IS a winning horse to bet on. That you just picked the wrong developer and that there would have been the winning developer available.
I'm not so sure about that, though. It's speculation. Maybe there is no winning developer.
In my book they share the blame, there is nothing to argue about that - if you take a job, you do because you think you can do it, because if you don't, you are more likely than not finished, and for good, and whether Limbic faring better than BH or not, they had their chance, and the game is still in public beta and abandoned in that state, and no one in their right minds will let them develop something big again.
They had the chance, they scrwed up, their loss, Ubisoft's loss and our loss as well.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 07, 2016 05:00 PM |
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Jolly Joker said:
Verriker, you TOTALLY miss the point. And that point is, that Ubisoft is the part that pays the bills and the developer is the part responsible for most of the game. They simply ARE.
Now, true: if you hire someone and that someone is inadequate - you are the one who did the hiring, that much is true. But what your little horse race bet analogy WRONGLY conveys is, that there IS a winner, that there IS a winning horse to bet on. That you just picked the wrong developer and that there would have been the winning developer available.
I'm not so sure about that, though. It's speculation. Maybe there is no winning developer.
no no, in fact, the winning horse here is the most successful decision lol
cancelling or never even greenlighting the project at all can very well be the winning horse, and they as professional publishers should be very well equipped to predict the ultimate outcome by vetting their options thoroughly and making a judgement lol
bear in mind there was no abject, unpredictable disaster on Black Hole or Limbic's end, nobody died, they are subpar or cheap ass studios and delivered accordingly subpar work, you get what you pay for lol
once again, all respect to you man, but please repeat after me, *Ubisoft* is to blame if they facilitated that disaster, not just *Team Erwin* is to blame or *Erwin* is to blame lol
as mentioned, put aside for a minute whatever *Erwin* was forced into with picking a dev, *Yves* and *Ubisoft* certainly were not forced to have their minion pick a dev, nor greenlight any Might and Magic games, nor ever even go anywhere near Might and Magic to begin with lol
as I also said, Ubisoft if sincere should have invested in their own winning horse, a dedicated Might and Magic studio lol
it was abundantly clear even to me, Verriker the random forum plonker, from day one, (and you can check my post history to confirm), that Limbic was never the winning horse of Heroes 7 lol
we as consumers must clearly hold Ubisoft accountable for that before anyone else, for it is their initiative and their bet that we will buy it lol
well certainly, when one spends money the point is to profit, break even, create art or improve one's reputation, and Heroes 7 (if not Heroes 6 too) is clearly a failure to apportion blame for in all those regards lol
for all I know they might call it a success behind closed doors where no one is to blame, they're so backwards I wouldn't be surprised lol
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2016 05:16 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 17:19, 07 Oct 2016.
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Jolly...
First of all, saying a game is too complicated because units have too many skills is just silly. It's a strategy game. The more complex, the better.
Second, I won't say you're wrong on blaming Blackhole and whatever, but I find your argument too focused on the legality of things. You fail to see the situation itself. Let me explain it to you. There's less and less rich people in the world, and more and more normal workers just waiting to be hired. Ubisoft knows that. In such a market, they will always be able to find students willing to work for a snowty pay and ridiculous, 70+ hours per week to produce their games. You see, Ubisoft will always produce poor quality game, and yet you will always point your fingers and the workers and blame them?
The definition of responsibility is to make a change when you have a power to do so. Ubisoft has the power, but refuses to put the correct amount of money on their project. The little guy, Limbic and etc, even if they have the power to refuse a project, Ubisoft will just find another sucker to create their game, and the result will be equally crappy. So you see, if we focus on the definition of responsibility rather than it's legal interpretation, it is Ubisoft that should be blamed.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted October 07, 2016 05:47 PM |
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By the might of Horus, I go away for a while and everything goes to snow  .
Looks like we're not only back to square one, we've been arrested and kicked out of the stadium. If that really is the end of support/updates for H7, then wow...praise to those who saw it coming from the very day it all began.
I must depart in shame, for I did not fight bravely enough.
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olorin
Adventuring Hero
tophatchild.blogspot.com
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posted October 07, 2016 05:48 PM |
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Edited by olorin at 17:49, 07 Oct 2016.
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Kayna said:
Jolly...
Ubisoft has the power, but refuses to put the correct amount of money on their project. The little guy, Limbic and etc, even if they have the power to refuse a project, Ubisoft will just find another sucker to create their game, and the result will be equally crappy. So you see, if we focus on the definition of responsibility rather than it's legal interpretation, it is Ubisoft that should be blamed.
Wise words. Modern economic intertia demands slavery. They treat clients like s*** and this is what they get: terrible sellings and hatred.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2016 06:05 PM |
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Ok, let ME explain it to YOU - I happen to work in the creativity business.
Ubisoft is the RESPONSIBLE part, because they picked the developer they gave the chance to shine. Because THAT'S how it is in the creative business. You get a chance to prove your talent - you work your arse off to get something great done. Why? Because if you get a critically acclaimed title out, your future prospects are very sunny indeed, and no matter Ubisoft.
Ubisoft isn't part of the equation at that point anymore. OF COURSE they want to earn money, that's why they do what they do, but they cannot earn money when they produce flops, so they do have an interest in delivering a good product.
What the developer SHOULD do is, for example, play the old games in your spare time as preparation. You will work overtime to make things work and get things right. If you get a forum up for discussion with supposed experts, you fracking DISCUSS with them and don't tell them they are clueless and random skilling involves no strategy, for example. And you do that in your SPARE TIME as well, because you should have a goddamn interest in what you do and why.
And you do all this because this is your fracking chance. And you accept the fact that you may not make the most in terms of money with this one. Think James Cameron and Terminator - this is what wiki says:
Quote:
Gale Anne Hurd, who had worked at New World Pictures as Roger Corman's assistant, showed interest in the film project. Cameron sold the rights for The Terminator to Hurd for one dollar with the promise that she would produce it only if Cameron was to direct it. As a producer, Hurd had suggested edits to the script and took a screen writing credit in the film. Cameron has stated that Hurd "did no actual writing at all". Cameron and Hurd had friends who worked with Roger Corman previously and who were now working at Orion Pictures, now part of MGM. Orion agreed to distribute the film if Cameron could get financial backing elsewhere. The script was picked up by John Daly at Hemdale Pictures.
Cameron wanted his pitch for Daly to finalize the deal and had his friend Lance Henriksen show up to the meeting early dressed and acting like the Terminator. Henriksen showed up at the office kicking open the door wearing a leather jacket, and had gold foil smothered on his teeth and fake cuts on his face and then sat in a chair. Cameron arrived shortly after which relieved the staff from Henriksen's act. Daly was impressed by the screenplay and Cameron's sketches and passion for the film. In late 1982, Daly agreed to back the film with help from HBO and Orion. The Terminator was originally budgeted at $4 million and later raised to $6.5 million.
And look where Cameron has been going from there. No matter the budget or the Dollar he got for the script or the writing credits Hurd got probably undeserved.
If you screw up and deliver a flop you are TO BLAME - you were not good enough or didn't put enough effort into it or both. Obviously this happens, but keep in mind that Blizzard (and everyone else) also began SMALL.
@ Kayna
There is a difference between complexity and confusion. There is no strategy involved whatsoever if the game is doing all the math for you, telling you simply what happens - and you have no idea why, which factors are going into it and what things mean, and then add complex formulas to compute things, and strategy becomes completely meaningless, and that's what H6 is. You look, oh, that much damage, hmm, is that right? You'd look into a table to check what so much attack/defense difference would gain. But the bigger downside is, you cannot easily check anymore whether the game does what it should do, and the more operations you have to do to compete the final damage and the effects of an action the bigger the margin for error is.
Complexity doesn't mean complicated, convoluted or confused.
@ Everyone
If you want to keep flogging the dead horse - go on. But keep in mind, as long as Ubisoft holds the right, the thing you can hope for is, that either Ubisoft (or Vivendi) eventually scrapes up a budget and finds a developer who will produce a gem on a low budget or an enterprising developer having an interesting concept will suggest something to Ubisoft and they will scrape up the low budget as well. Otherwise Seven wasn't the lucky number but the death call.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 07, 2016 06:21 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 18:23, 07 Oct 2016.
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Dies_Irae said:
If that really is the end of support/updates for H7, then wow...praise to those who saw it coming from the very day it all began.
cheers buddy lol
don't feel bad though mate, you shouldn't be ashamed over the failings of Ubilimb, there was much bravery in hoping for the best against the odds too, whether it was a predictable outcome or not lol
Jolly Joker said:
Ubisoft is the RESPONSIBLE part,
thank you lol
that's all I ask in this quibble mate lol
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Kayna
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2016 06:34 PM |
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Edited by Kayna at 18:35, 07 Oct 2016.
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Can't wait to play me some Vivendi Heroes of might and magic 8. I'm not preordering though. Wouldn't it be sad, to fall for yet another hype train, this time because it's Vivendi. One final head butt over a brick wall.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2016 06:53 PM |
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verriker said:
Dies_Irae said:
If that really is the end of support/updates for H7, then wow...praise to those who saw it coming from the very day it all began.
cheers buddy lol
don't feel bad though mate, you shouldn't be ashamed over the failings of Ubilimb, there was much bravery in hoping for the best against the odds too, whether it was a predictable outcome or not lol
Jolly Joker said:
Ubisoft is the RESPONSIBLE part,
thank you lol
that's all I ask in this quibble mate lol
You conveniently forgot that Limbic is the part TO BLAME.
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted October 07, 2016 06:56 PM |
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Another solution is things to go open source and done by the community at some point. As far as I see heroes games we need the basics world setup and the ability to create factions and creatures given to the players. I think this kind of approach would have been groundbreaking.
Imagine heroes game with just 4 factions and a good battle system.
Actually the updates for the game to be mini DLCs with textures which people can buy and create cities, units and all kind of adventure map settings!
I heard some rumors H7 editor offered a lot of those things but still had too many bugs, unfortunately all went down to the rabbit hole.
P.S.
JollyJoker said:
You conveniently forgot that Limbic is the part TO BLAME.
As a rule of the thumb, the one to blame is always the one in control a.k.a. the boss. The one in control can always says "I dont like this lets redo it because it will ruin our name". If they cant forsee this they are the one to blame. Also this means they are not suitable for the boss role anymore.
Workers have job, you want texture you get texture. You one script that do this... this is what you get.
Talking about geniuses and people who want to prove themselves - One needs to know that those kind of people are scouted by the boss/manager as well. What can a genius can do if he has his hands locked? Looking it from creative side - no freedom to do art.
Also the lower the budget the lower the chance you will get the next Leonardo Davinci of game design. Basically if you are paid that low where you start considering that you will be paid that much in Mcadonalds for less working hours... why bother to prove yourself?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2016 07:31 PM |
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dredknight said:
Basically if you are paid that low where you start considering that you will be paid that much in Mcadonalds for less working hours... why bother to prove yourself?
If you DO think that, you'll get the results we have and you are indeed better off at McDonalds because that's the right job for you. For the rest - are you working, if so, what?
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dredknight
Honorable
Supreme Hero
disrupting the moding industry
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posted October 07, 2016 08:11 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
dredknight said:
Basically if you are paid that low where you start considering that you will be paid that much in Mcadonalds for less working hours... why bother to prove yourself?
If you DO think that, you'll get the results we have and you are indeed better off at McDonalds because that's the right job for you. For the rest - are you working, if so, what?
I get by as an IT engineer.
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matt1818
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 07, 2016 08:22 PM |
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Bit late to the party here, but cheers to this not getting dragged out any longer!
No matter who deserves more of the blame, the fact of the matter is Heroes 6 and Heroes 7 have been trash, completely unworthy of the HoMM title, or of the TBS genre, or even the strategy game genre.
Personally I'm a purist and I'd rather have no more new Heroes games than a bunch of cheap insulting knockoffs tarnishing the series' reputation. I hope eventually for a Heroes 8 (Heroes OF Might and Magic 8) made by a competent strategic game developer and a decent creative team that doesn't insult our intelligence with every creative and artistic decision made. But if that never happens, hey, I'm pretty content playing Heroes 2 and Heroes 5 and Age of Wonders 3 indefinitely. Better no game than the roller coaster of hope and high expectations followed by crushing disappointment and frustration and wasted time and money on a game doomed from the start.
Cheers all, you guys are great, keep Heroes alive, keep holding the devs & Ubisoft accountable!
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