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| Thread: Line-ups suggestion for Heroes 8 |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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lantranar
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 05, 2018 11:09 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
The problem is, the developers you spoke with probably didn't understand the game they were talking about. In this case the problem is, that the game is GEARED to maximize production. Everything you need resources and gold for is put into increasing creature production in some way - be it vertically or horizontally -, and it would be completely and utterly silly to PUNISH players for doing that well, by introducing COUNTER-balancing elements.
One example to make that very clear is creature XP (you can have with WoG). Creature XP is a COUNTER-balancing element, because you WEAKEN your high-XP-level elite creatures when you merge them with new recruits. Now, you MIGHT say that means you can equip more heroes and so on, but that doesn't work because XP IS LIMITED in the game...
Things that work well with other games just do not work with HoMM - and, as I hope I have shown - it's even easy to see why that is so.
So did you agree with me or did you not? firstly you were against the idea to put more condition on unit stack, then you showed how the condition (creature XP) makes it works better (questionably). Btw, the guys I talked with , or those of made GDC talks I attended to, are from devs who are famous with 4x titles like Paradox and Triumph so I'd take their ideas more seriously.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 05, 2018 11:51 PM |
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I did not agree with you.
You know, the problem with HoMM isn't that devs can do what they want (the fanbase being too vocal) - the problem is they haven't got a clue how to "re-invent" the game without sacrificing what makes the game in the first place.
You can clearly see that when you look at the last titles; they all thought they made a great game. They didn't, though.
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lantranar
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 06, 2018 09:27 AM |
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and from the view point of developer, it is the fan's preference that is dragging this series back. No matter who will be in charge of the next Hmm, they will always be stuck in the a bunch of dilemmas.
They clearly know what is appealing about the old Hmm, but those things will conflict with Ubisoft's goals (acquire new players, multiplaying, competitive scene, and so on). They don't want to build a Hmm that is more like a cult classic, they want an Assassin Creed of Might and Magic that gives them a stable formula to milk for years to come, which the old formula was already deemed as fail to do so.
H3, despite being the favorite child of the bunch, is the epitome of messy gameplay design that even NWC don't want to come back. It is even mentioned here and there as to how not to design a strategy game in some game design courses. Why bother?
It s not that im telling you to not cling to the old values. Realistically, it should be expected from someone else, some devs that have much smaller scale and ambition in mind, not from Ubisoft.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 06, 2018 04:27 PM |
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I have no idea why you reiterate that HoMM 3 is the worst game ever created when I say that the game is simply a dead end when it comes to the development of a new title.
The facts are that Ubisoft tried with H6 and HO sufficiently "different" stuff - with HO even with two DIFFERENT developers, after the first set botched things completely -, only to fail and generate a complete desaster with H7. I've met all of them (not all devs but some of all teams), and I've talked to them, and the simple truth is that they all had what I would call "no clue what certain design goals will do to the rest of the game and eact accordingly".
An example for this is the following:
H6 reduced the resources "to make things more contested". However - 3 resources less mean 3 important map locations have just gone out the window, but instead taking a look at the Heroes game with the most map locations and copy a few (H4), they did - nothing. So what you find on the maps are endless boring "clumps" of resource piles you have to fight a couple of idiots for.
That isn't what I would call good game design, and that crap about "fans wanting H3" is a load of nonsense. It's not the fans who design the game, it's still the producer/developer combo.
Everyone would be happy if they managed to make a GOOD game that would be "Heroes", but NOT H3.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 06, 2018 05:13 PM |
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lantranar said:
I never doubt that old fan still love the old formula, I do too. What I doubt is how appealing it is to new players, which is obviously what ubisoft is more concerned about.
When acquiring this franchise Ubisoft inherited of an already existing fandom. This is what a franchise is, you need to do both things -keep original fandom interest yet attract new players at the same time- this how you make your fanbase grow. I don’t understand why Ubisoft is so stubborn about getting rid of old fans, and getting rid of what makes Heroes Heroes. This is lose-lose situation, facts are here. H7 did not fail because it was supposedly a H3 remake, it failed because it is just horrible. To me is an usurper, branding the Heroes flag and actually being an insult to the JVC designs. They should want to keep existing fandom while appealing to new players. Otherwise, why not make another game with a different licence? Yeah, you talk about Assassin’s Creed in your next post, that just won’t work with Might and Magic. Also the "H3 is worst game design ever" argument just doesn’t make sense to me, it’s the all-time favorite, even according to Ubisoft themselves. Btw, how could a botched H3HD containing only vanilla selling seven times more than H7 not raise a few signals?
Quote:
It s not that im telling you to not cling to the old values. Realistically, it should be expected from someone else, some devs that have much smaller scale and ambition in mind, not from Ubisoft.
I would highly suggest Ubisoft to redefine their strategy about that. Maybe consider they might be wrong and try to REALLY understand what that IP actually really is about would be an honest and strong advice from me. I know what they will do with my advice though... I spoke to people there, in Ubisoft Paris HQ, they are just living in another reality.
Quote:
Btw, the guys I talked with , or those of made GDC talks I attended to, are from devs who are famous with 4x titles like Paradox and Triumph so I'd take their ideas more seriously.
That’s great, but HoMM is no 4x game.
JJ said:
Everyone would be happy if they managed to make a GOOD game that would be "Heroes", but NOT H3.
I think this is true, I mean I personally would love a proper H3 remake at this point but a good new game that would actually be Heroes without being H3 would ALSO make me happy.
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 06, 2018 07:06 PM |
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Galaad said:
H3 remake
No.
All I've ever heard from you is
JVC JVC JVC
h3 h3 h3
Move on.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 06, 2018 07:22 PM |
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hang on in there guys. With the amazing awesomeness of my amazing brain I will make the absolute BEST heroes-like game that will make heroes 3 forgotten.
Just give me 10-12 years to come up with millions of dollars and I promise you will all be stunned of how amazing MY game is. And I intend to make it free if I can afford it, otherwise it will be a measly $10-20 (and I'm not bothered if it gets cracked, either) cause I'm not a money-hungry pig of a CEO whose life is measured in numbers.
Just y'all pray to God that I get the millions I need to hire people that will bring MY amazing ideas to life
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 06, 2018 07:38 PM |
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bitmaid said:
No.
All I've ever heard from you is
JVC JVC JVC
h3 h3 h3
Move on.
With all due respect, it is because they choose to move on from H3 and the lessons to learn from - gorgeous art, perspective, simplicity, speed, lore, that we got the repetitive crap starting with H4.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 06, 2018 10:39 PM |
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Calling H4 "repetitive crap" is - with all due respect - nonsense.
It also shows that you have no idea what the real problem is. The REAL problem is that a game like HoMM 3 on today's market is just a mobile game - like Creature Quest.
So the conclusion is, if you want to make a PC game, you have to make the game "heavier" without sacrificing the ease of play, the one-more-turn feeling and the simplicity when it comes to decisions in the game (plus, you have to have good graphics without those being to expensive, both in making and in machine performance) - plus, ideally it has to be recognizable as a Heroes game.
That means, for example, that most battles must not last too long or be overly complicated - although they must not be trivial either.
Very difficult to design because very difficult to hit the right blance with everything.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 07, 2018 12:42 AM |
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bitmaid said:
No.
All I've ever heard from you is
JVC JVC JVC
h3 h3 h3
Move on.
for sure a big dirty disgrace, he must move on to Erwin Erwin Erwin h7 h7 h7 in future, else we will force him to another reconditioning session free of charge lol
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 01:20 PM |
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I know, right? These guys are obviously either trolls or ubisuck employees. 
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 02:43 PM |
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Yikes, so not wanting a h3 remake means liking h7? Who says one thing must lead to the other? Try contribute something to the discussion instead.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 07, 2018 03:22 PM |
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This became like politics, everyone's argument is pushed to the extreme corner in order to dismiss the whole reasoning. I never saw anyone asking for a H3 remake, instead what I often read is the desire for perfecting and completing H3 flaws and incoherencies - there are tons of them diagnosed then identified, while keeping the solid backbone which made the pinnacle of the series and the last one standing live.
From that perspective, H4 and further games are crap, because they do not consider H3 as starting point, technically and aesthetically speaking, but instead they arrogantly assume there is need to change what it perfectly worked, interface, battlefield, perspective, fluidity and graphics. H3 had a big flaw - AI, in perspective to its other outstanding qualities. The first goal, logically, would have been to fix and transcend that for H4 - AI first, or instead we got an AI even worse, the worse ever. If you isolate H4 from the series, you may find qualities and it even got its enthusiastic fanbase, but if you consider it as proud H3 successor then is garbage. H4 is the first metastasis on HMM body, with H6/7 gangrene wiping it out for ever.
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Era II mods and utilities
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 03:28 PM |
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Every Heroes game after 3 fits into the Heroes lineup, like "Halloween 3" did for the "Halloween" series of movies. Completely unlike the originals. To me, they're nowhere near the same product; let alone, in the same universe. The only thing "Halloween 3" had in common with the series, was the holiday. And the only thing that made the Heroes games after 3 Heroes games, was that the word "Heroes" was used.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted October 07, 2018 04:34 PM |
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bitmaid said:
Yikes, so not wanting a h3 remake means liking h7? Who says one thing must lead to the other?
bitmaid said:
Try contribute something to the discussion instead.
randomly get triggered to pigeonhole opponent into cartoon character who only talks about JVC or H3 is not contribution,
anyway sorry to break it out but there is not much discussion really worth having except to pass the time,
there has been no canon Heroes game since 2003, a fan fiction Heroes 8 will not happen by Tencent unless it is Heroes Chinese Edition (no worries to that but we cannot influence it), and anyone else who wants to make their own Bootleg Heroes will hopefully have an own brain and own vision to not have to listen to a post mortem on an armchair forum, thus so clean or pure post mortem thread everyone will forget in a month and soon rehash is not vital lol
I like that guy who will make the best Bootleg Heroes game in ten years even if he has no money, credentials or staff, I will not be Rex Banner to blow him down but rather Barney and buy him a new Boot for his bootleg (postage and packing not included terms and conditions apply) cheers lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 05:11 PM |
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Salamandre said:
From that perspective, H4 and further games are crap, because they do not consider H3 as starting point
H3 isn't a starting point, but an end point. That's the thing a lot of people don't see.
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 05:18 PM |
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h3 was a great game for its time almost 20 years ago, and it's popular compared to later installments but NOT compared to what h8 could be. It's absurd to cling on to that after 20 years seeing how much game industry has changed in this time. Almost every single aspect of the game can be revamped (and still remain true to itself).
I think it's important for the developer to listen to its fans, but it's not like we're crunching the numbers here or coming up with exact ways to alter certain nuanced details. I think at this point the greatest thing this community can offer is to show the willingness to accept change.
h7 was the disastrous product of nostalgia, even admitted by Erwan himself in that interview. They took bits of what they think worked in the past and patched them together but it still lacked a vision. Let's grant it that you get the h3 remake you want eventually (@Salamandre, I literally quoted someone who asked for that), or the "perfect h3", whatever that means, what's next? Because h3 remake works we're going to remake h3 remake? The cycle can't continue forever.
At some point you will have to accept change. The next game should have as much creative freedom as it should to salvage the franchise. Change is good, embrace it.
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fred79
Disgraceful
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 05:31 PM |
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Bad changes = suck.
Why am i even responding to someone who is clearly either an ubisoft employee or shill(i've ruled out troll)?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 07, 2018 05:47 PM |
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bitmaid said:
It's absurd to cling on to that after 20 years seeing how much game industry has changed in this time. Almost every single aspect of the game can be revamped (and still remain true to itself).
That much is obvious. But a modern game failing to become as good as an 20yo game is even more ridiculous. Whatever H3 remake mentions/requests we get is the direct result of recent ubiheroes not being good enough. One could go back to H3 for a quick fix of nostalgia but it is too outdated to keep you playing for long. I am currently replaying heroes chronicles and enjoying it but after I'm done, I won't be going back to H3.
And change cannot be good or bad by default, H6 changes certainly weren't the holy grail anyone could have expected. H4 were too mixed as well. But either way, I'm sure that everyone's ideal heroes is a mix of features throughout the series and every one of them can be improved or have another dimension added.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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verynice
Hired Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 06:50 PM |
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Professional game designers all have their own perspectives and taste. I don't see any reason why they would have a particularly good idea on what the franchise needs at this point. Mentioning stuff like unlimited unit stacking being a huge problem just shows they don't understand why the game got popular in the first place.
I honestly think they would be better off making something close to H3 on a small budget and seeing where it goes. The success of H3HD despite it sucking and the way HotA + HD has kept a sizable competitive community alive (despite the game not being in any way balanced for competitive play) shows there's still an audience for the game.
Giving the game a large development team, detailed 3D graphics, expansive campaign and streamlining it for modern audiences is never going to work. It is never going be a big franchise again. Ubisoft needs to sell the license to someone with realistic expectations who isn't afraid to cater to the old fanbase.
H3HD was actually a good idea if they hadn't half-assed it so hard. I'm sure it made good money, but it could have been so much more than some snowty nostalgia bait.
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