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| Thread: Line-ups suggestion for Heroes 8 |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 07:02 PM |
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Edited by monere at 19:53, 07 Oct 2018.
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I like that guy who will make the best Bootleg Heroes game in ten years even if he has no money, credentials or staff
I am that guy, and I like myself, too. And yes, I will make the most amazing heroes-like game that's EVER been created... if I get the money, that is... oh, and if I don't die in the meantime, as well 
EDIT: and to give you all a teaser here's a few things I'm having in mind for my amazingly awesome heroes-like game:
- 9 factions from the get-go;
- 6 hero classes for each faction (3 pure classes like warrior, explorer, or mage, plus 3 dual classes - combination of 2 pure classes) + one "no class" class that is not focuses on anything but can develop VERY specifically, according to the advanced skill the player will choose;
- 30 basic skills + 2-3 faction-specific skills;
- one of the priorities in my game is for mages to really really REALLY shine (as I have always preferred mages over fighters in every video game I've played), and I will take care of the mages to really have chances of owning in early, mid, and late game, too without breaking the game obviously. And believe me when I say that the mages in my game are truly BADASS. You should see the necro or inferno spells;
- new and way too cool spells like gemini effect, evil spirits (and no, it's NOT about the boring summoning of whatever creature, but has its own cool mechanism), amnesia, tranquility aura, all for one, retroactive armor, apathy, poltergeist, arcane cage, parched ground, chilling scream, ancient curse, or haunted... and these are ON TOP of the usual spells you can find in the heroes 3-5 games, which I will also improve and/or rename;
- mythical artifacts (which are better than relics and which only the pure explorer classes have access to;
- each pure hero class can branch out into 3 paths, the dual class into 2, each branch dealing EXCLUSIVELY with their own skill and benefits;
- each faction with their own 2-3 specifics (the humans are the usual religious type, but they are also influenced - and when I say "influenced" I really MEAN influenced every day of the game and every action they take on the adventure map will influence their karma in one way or the other, and depending on the hero's karma when the battle starts various things will happen with the creatures' abilities (for example, the monk will, by default, have 8 shots, but these shots will vary from 4 to 14 according to the hero's karma at the start of the battle);
- each hero has its own specialization which is influenced by the hero's leveling up, as well as their class, AND branch of the class;
- every faction (as intended at the moment, but I might change this in the spirit of a good game), will have 7 tiers of creatures, tier 1 consisting of only 1 creature, but tiers 2-7 consisting of 2 alternative creatures (like in Heroes 4). Also, tier 2-4 creatures will consist of 2 creatures to choose from, while tier 5 and 6 will consist of 3 creatures to choose from... and ALL these 13 creatures that each faction offers will each have 2 alternate upgrades (which in my game are hard to decide on which to choose no matter who you're up against);
There's literally TONNE more things that I have already put on paper, but I'm not gonna post them all now cause I wanna keep you all salivating. Just rest assured that if God will help me find the necessary funds I will give you all a game that you will play drooling for at least 30-40 years and which will probably be a benchmark in the TBS industry from there on. Like I've said many times on this forum, I may sound retarded, but I'm not. I'm no middle man, and for me things are either white or black. And when it comes to creating the game I have always dreamed of creating things are always white
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Ubisoft needs to sell the license to someone
They need to give it to me for free 
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lantranar
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 07:53 PM |
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Galaad said:
I would highly suggest Ubisoft to redefine their strategy about that. Maybe consider they might be wrong and try to REALLY understand what that IP actually really is about would be an honest and strong advice from me. I know what they will do with my advice though... I spoke to people there, in Ubisoft Paris HQ, they are just living in another reality.
I dont know if it is actually the best advice we/you can give them. They have never let any of their in-house teams to get involved with this franchise. The next H8 ever existed would just be from another developer they pick, with nothing similar to Hmm in their porfolio (again). Ofc, they will also have limited budget and time to do so as Ubi would want to avoid risk and loss (in their own way). They 'll want to see 4 or 5 factions first and only when the game sell well, they ll fund to pump out more DLCs.
Knowing that new devs will have as much (if not more) difficulties to make H8, what is the realistic direction for them to do? follow H7 example to fail again? or just freely reimagine this game and by some small chances, they might just discover what makes it stick.
Im a game designer in training so Im more biased in this matter. Even H4 at its worst still managed to introduce a few features and hints that help to improve this series, so im all for a big reboot with a bunch of new silly ideas.
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Btw, how could a botched H3HD containing only vanilla selling seven times more than H7 not raise a few signals?
did you include sales on mobile or not? No matter how much the sales H3HD made, I quite sure some M&M mobile spinoff with tons of microtransactions released in CHina would easily top that.
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To me is an usurper, branding the Heroes flag and actually being an insult to the JVC designs.
They are, and Im quite sure that is intentional. Unless JVC's ideas brings them money like they did with the recent Hmm mobile game in China, naturally they would want people to forget that Hmm used to belong to him. Why did they rewrite the lore if they don't want to make this franchise their own (successful or not)? They want new generations to think about this game as their creation, just like Fallout as Bethesda's.
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Also the "H3 is worst game design ever" argument just doesn’t make sense to me, it’s the all-time favorite, even according to Ubisoft themselves.
Again, I never denie that H3 is the most favorite of all, I even said so myself. But what it does best is the RPG (not strategy) and single player aspect. The old formulas dont provide a good shell to make good multiplayer -slash- competitive game, which also in turn reduce the potential for more DLCs and microtransactions and card game spin off. Of course we would love it if they just make a SLIGHTLY better H5 with better performance, for an "acceptable" amount of profit, but it is doubtly what they would aim for.
As for the gameplay flaws, I would love to talk about it more as this game was one of my study subjects back in my courses, but I think it would go to far now.
verynice said:
Professional game designers all have their own perspectives and taste. I don't see any reason why they would have a particularly good idea on what the franchise needs at this point. Mentioning stuff like unlimited unit stacking being a huge problem just shows they don't understand why the game got popular in the first place.
"game designers has to protect players from their own habits and preferences, even if they genuinely enjoy them." This might sound ridiculously arrogant to you and most people, but it is what professionals do.
It is also why, even if developers who lack experience are not very successful with this franchise, it would be even more so if you hand this game to another developer with famous TBS titles. They wouldnt mind butchering this game further until it fits their mathematically-proven-good game standards, which are quite far from what Hmm originally was.
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 08:33 PM |
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ah monere, I thought you'd never spill.
That's actually an interesting concept. I certainly share your passion for spells, and necro and INFERNO!!!!! are my two favorite factions so I can't wait to hear more about them. But you know, magic is overpowered in Heroes as it is...
Don't you think it'd be interesting to have faction-specific spells, or at least faction-related spells so it's not mostly the same spells being offered in every magic guild? Like fire ball should be an inferno magic and not a fire magic. That way we get more schools of magic and you can only learn them in certain towns.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 09:06 PM |
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bitmaid said:
ah monere, I thought you'd never spill.
That's actually an interesting concept. I certainly share your passion for spells, and necro and INFERNO!!!!! are my two favorite factions so I can't wait to hear more about them. But you know, magic is overpowered in Heroes as it is...
Don't you think it'd be interesting to have faction-specific spells, or at least faction-related spells so it's not mostly the same spells being offered in every magic guild? Like fire ball should be an inferno magic and not a fire magic. That way we get more schools of magic and you can only learn them in certain towns.
I'm glad you like it mate. What I've mentioned in this post only scratches the surfaces of what I have in store for all you heroes freaks, and I've thought about many MANY things that are cool and which will be implemented, the faction-specific spells, too.
Each faction - well, each magic-oriented faction anyway (Demigods, Undead, Inferno, Warlocks, and possible the Ancients, too) - in my game will have 8-10 faction-specific spells. The Demigods for example will be masters of controlling and manipulating time, while the Inferno will use mostly fire magic (duh), but will also be masters of corrupting the poor souls of living creatures.
One of the necromancer's level 5 spell will turn the entire army under the necromancer spellcasting hero into... ghosts for 2-4 turns. All ghost'd creatures will become incorporeal for 2-4 turns, will be able to fly, and will have their defense raised by 50% during the ghost form. Trust me that when you see a powerful necromancer mage roaming around your area you will want to run and hide... and I don't even like necromancers, but even so I am impressed by the badassness of my game LOL.
Inferno - the boring Inferno spell from heroes 3 - will NOT be a boring, larger fireball, but it will, instead, rise up to its name of INFERNO. When the pure Inferno mage class will cast Inferno you will feel this level 5 spell fully. Only mechanical and elemental creatures will be able to resist it to some extent, but all others.... well, let's keep it at this for now.
And again, these are only some of the things that you will see in MY game, I haven't even mentioned the creature's badass abilities (the Titan's phasing ability for example, or the Aqrabuamelu's abilities - which I haven't found names for yet but trust me that are cool, or the Sinister's buffs, or... well, you will see... if I'll ever be able to create this game) 
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verynice
Hired Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 09:26 PM |
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lantranar said:
"game designers has to protect players from their own habits and preferences, even if they genuinely enjoy them." This might sound ridiculously arrogant to you and most people, but it is what professionals do.
It is what some professional do for some products.
What is wrong and what is right in terms of design is always a matter of perception and context no matter how you choose to word it. The academically correct way of designing games is not always the right way to shape a product and is rarely what makes a game succeed.
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 09:29 PM |
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haha that's the spirit. Oddly, it sounds refreshing and hopeful. If you're not worried about anyone stealing your ideas now that you've spelled some of it out, maybe tell us all about it in a new thread?
BTW I don't think you can actually wait a decade for that idea to come to fruition. Who knows what'll happen in another 10 years- new standards will come along for sure and maybe what's fresh now will become outdated. If you're serious about it, better start as soon as possible. Anyway, I'm glad your plan is finally unraveling.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 09:40 PM |
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bitmaid said:
haha that's the spirit. Oddly, it sounds refreshing and hopeful. If you're not worried about anyone stealing your ideas now that you've spelled some of it out, maybe tell us all about it in a new thread?
BTW I don't think you can actually wait a decade for that idea to come to fruition. Who knows what'll happen in another 10 years- new standards will come along for sure and maybe what's fresh now will become outdated. If you're serious about it, better start as soon as possible. Anyway, I'm glad your plan is finally unraveling.
It sounds refreshing and hopeful because it IS refreshing (as you can see my game doesn't look anything like the usual HoMM franchise). Well, it's actually 50-50 heroes and RPG, it's a perfect blend of both.
I am worried that my ideas will be stolen, and obviously I don't like it, but if they steal them... what the f*ck can I, a simple mortal, do about it? I'll just let it go and try to come up with other ideas. I was careful not to give out any secret recipe of how all these things can be mixed perfectly, though, in order to create the most BADASS TBS game, which is equally replayable to infinity, strategically deep, highly customizable, and beautifully designed at the same time. Actually, mixing these 4 elements to create the perfect harmony between them is what takes most of my time, not the ideas themselves, cause I already have 3-4 .txt files of ideas that I don't know which to use and which to drop. THAT many ideas I have
Being serious about it.... I think that the details I have made public already prove that I'm serious about it. The only thing that's stopping me are the damn money, which I have none of at the moment. If I had millions of dollars I would start the game tomorrow.
And no, I'm not gonna start a thread about it because I don't want to lay out my entire success recipe for every rich developer out there to just grab and claim as their own.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 09:47 PM |
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The game would fail. Sorry. Crappy ideas.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 09:48 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
The game would fail. Sorry. Crappy ideas.
So what? I'm gonna create it anyway and I'll play it with my imaginary friends
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lantranar
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 09:53 PM |
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verynice said:
The academically correct way of designing games is not always the right way to shape a product and is rarely what makes a game succeed.
If you remove the bolded part, this statement would be true (not just game, but to almost anything else). Academical methodologies are usually the most successful way to conduct any kind of business, in terms of statistics and average performance.
I dont even need to mention that most (of not all) experienced game designers are what they are today because they learn through actual development including intensive processes of data analytics, in order to deliver actually successful products.
I dont go as far as to say that you must require those knowledge to make a good game, but it is like waiting for some random artist to draw a painting exactly like your taste and demand. It can happen, just not very reliably.
and If you want to talk about the old age when every game developers were equally inexperienced, they were just a few hitters among a sea of missers too. And most ideas back then no longer works now for a reason.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 07, 2018 10:35 PM |
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lantranar said:
As for the gameplay flaws, I would love to talk about it more as this game was one of my study subjects back in my courses, but I think it would go to far now.
A topic dedicated to that would be interesting though.
monere said:
JollyJoker said:
The game would fail. Sorry. Crappy ideas.
So what? I'm gonna create it anyway and I'll play it with my imaginary friends
I love this guy
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 10:38 PM |
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monere said:
JollyJoker said:
The game would fail. Sorry. Crappy ideas.
So what? I'm gonna create it anyway and I'll play it with my imaginary friends
I was prepared to concede the point - but the thing is, if games are good nowadays, everyone plays their own creations with their friends, imaginary or not, trying mods.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 10:44 PM |
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Elvin said:
I love this guy
*blushes*
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I was prepared to concede the point - but the thing is, if games are good nowadays, everyone plays their own creations with their friends, imaginary or not, trying mods.
And I was (honestly) prepared to listen to anything from the (expected) "wow, dude, you are AMAZING" (which is true), to your type of comment. And to both types of comments I would reply with "yes, I know that I am amazing and I don't give a crap about anyone's opinion because this is MY game".
Anyway, I am bored now, so don't take me seriously cause I usually troll when I'm bored 
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bitmaid
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 10:47 PM |
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Alrighty monere, guard it with your life. I'm prepared to pay up to 100 USD (inflation adjusted) whenever it comes out.
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monere
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 10:54 PM |
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bitmaid said:
Alrighty monere, guard it with your life. I'm prepared to pay up to 100 USD (inflation adjusted) whenever it comes out.
Um, thanks... I guess, but I'm not guarding it with my life. I'll just guard it with not divulging any more secrets and that's about as far as I'm willing to go
Also, the way I see it the game will easily be worth $100, but it's only going to cost money if I have to borrow or fundraise or something and have to pay the devs. Otherwise (if I pay from my own pockets) it's gonna be free (or very cheap anyway, up to $20 or so) like I've promised, and I will also be glad if poor people hack the game cause - unlike the rich scumbags - I am NOT against unfortunate souls not having access to great things.
Anyway, thanks for your boost of confidence, and I hope that one day we will all lose our jobs and families over my game
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 07, 2018 10:55 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 22:56, 07 Oct 2018.
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lantranar said:
I dont know if it is actually the best advice we/you can give them. They have never let any of their in-house teams to get involved with this franchise. The next H8 ever existed would just be from another developer they pick, with nothing similar to Hmm in their porfolio (again). Ofc, they will also have limited budget and time to do so as Ubi would want to avoid risk and loss (in their own way). They 'll want to see 4 or 5 factions first and only when the game sell well, they ll fund to pump out more DLCs.
Knowing that new devs will have as much (if not more) difficulties to make H8, what is the realistic direction for them to do? follow H7 example to fail again? or just freely reimagine this game and by some small chances, they might just discover what makes it stick.
Sorry but if they have neither the will to get really involved nor any decent budget I don’t see how they can make it work. I don’t know if my advice is the best, but the two aformentioned points should be a strict minimum IMO
Are you actually serious about that last part, freely reimagine this game and by some small chances, they might just discover what makes it stick? I cannot see how any of this is "Academical".
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Im a game designer in training so Im more biased in this matter. Even H4 at its worst still managed to introduce a few features and hints that help to improve this series, so im all for a big reboot with a bunch of new silly ideas.
Fair enough I’m just a fan and am also biased as a player. I am certainly not for some "random reboot with a bunch of new silly ideas", is this Ubisoft’s big ambition? I hate to reiterate, but how would it not be logical to simply try to make a game that actually feels like a Might and Magic game if it carries the Might and Magic flag. ...
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I quite sure some M&M mobile spinoff with tons of microtransactions released in CHina would easily top that.
You are comparing two very different markets here.
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They are, and Im quite sure that is intentional. Unless JVC's ideas brings them money like they did with the recent Hmm mobile game in China, naturally they would want people to forget that Hmm used to belong to him. Why did they rewrite the lore if they don't want to make this franchise their own (successful or not)? They want new generations to think about this game as their creation, just like Fallout as Bethesda's.
Well there we have it. We all have our convictions and I believe in honesty, scams are not durable and I would bet the franchise would be much healthy today if Ubisoft didn’t try to change everything. If this last decade didn’t show you that constantly showing the middle-finger to a 20 yo fandom is an absurdity as much artistically than financially we might just agree to disagree.
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verynice
Hired Hero
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posted October 07, 2018 10:56 PM |
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lantranar said:
If you remove the bolded part, this statement would be true (not just game, but to almost anything else). Academical methodologies are usually the most successful way to conduct any kind of business, in terms of statistics and average performance.
I dont even need to mention that most (of not all) experienced game designers are what they are today because they learn through actual development including intensive processes of data analytics, in order to deliver actually successful products.
I think you are taking what I meant by academic design out of context. I was referring to the earlier comment on how unlimited stacks were unbalanced and it being an example of bad player habits.
It doesn't matter whether it is "unbalanced" since it is what people like and the thriving competitive community clearly shows that some kind of balance must be present or else so many people wouldn't be competing 20 years on in a game where a proper match can easily take up a whole day.
In this case "bad player habits" is interchangeable with "player tastes" and going in with the idea that the game needs to be more "balanced" and the already complex game mechanics burdened with complicated limitations is a terrible approach. No one is asking for these changes. A lot of players in these types of games like to have the degree of freedom that makes it possible to completely break the game. There's a reason so many people remember the old Necromancy so fondly despite it being utterly broken.
lantranar said:
and If you want to talk about the old age when every game developers were equally inexperienced, they were just a few hitters among a sea of missers too. And most ideas back then no longer works now for a reason.
Depends entirely on how you define "old age", nearly all of the current popular game genres are evolutions of concepts that have been around since the early 90s. Games are very much still a few hitters among a sea of missers. That hasn't changed one bit.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted October 08, 2018 12:01 AM |
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bitmaid said:
Alrighty monere, guard it with your life. I'm prepared to pay up to 100 USD (inflation adjusted) whenever it comes out.
10 years from now, he said? 100 dinars would be more appropriate.
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lantranar
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 08, 2018 08:24 PM |
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Are you actually serious about that last part, freely reimagine this game and by some small chances, they might just discover what makes it stick? I cannot see how any of this is "Academical".
well, in the sense that the game will be designed based on data, experience and expertise. Fandom's preference is a factor, but not the deciding one is. Each developer has their own working models and standards for what a game would look like and that is supposed to be their starting point.
Galaad said:
Fair enough I’m just a fan and am also biased as a player. I am certainly not for some "random reboot with a bunch of new silly ideas", is this Ubisoft’s big ambition? I hate to reiterate, but how would it not be logical to simply try to make a game that actually feels like a Might and Magic game if it carries the Might and Magic flag. ...
fan's opinions have less weight than you must have thought. Nowadays it is already a rule of thumb to avoid recruiting fans as game designers, especially the most passionate ones among the bunch as their preference are quite further detached from the rest.
Furthermore, Ubisoft is on the high ground here. They can jail this IP as long as they can and it wouldnt hurt them. As long as them feel it is way too risky to please fans who are not willing to compromise and lower their expectation for new trials, why would they be more generous to give the next team more time and fund?
Galaad said:
You are comparing two very different markets here.
Not quite, what they own is the IP, not the particular PC TBS game. They are investing in the Chinese and mobile market because its less risky. You think if they happen to pass by this forum and see a lot of people here yelling "we demand this or that" "the game must have this and that", they ll sit down and listen or just simply turn their back a way and try to sell their game somewhere else ?
verynice said:
There's a reason so many people remember the old Necromancy so fondly despite it being utterly broken.
If there is something completely broken and every one knows it, then it is not meant for competitive mindset. People playing an old,broken game with one another is not a competitive community, its a cult. And I never said its impossible to have a competitive community with H3 formulas, its just hard to have an expanded one with it. Im quite sure none of the AAA publishers desire a community of that scale.
BTW, I can't say have I have a good view as exactly how big or popular H3 'competitive' scene is, so if you happen to have some data/infos about it, I'd like to see.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted October 08, 2018 09:20 PM |
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lantranar said:
well, in the sense that the game will be designed based on data, experience and expertise.
Which Ubisoft has showed time and again to be absolutely flawless about. Come on...
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fans who are not willing to compromise and lower their expectation for new trials
Ubisoft succeeded here, expectations were already low for h7, they are now non-existent.
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Not quite, what they own is the IP, not the particular PC TBS game
Yes quite, the mobile market is a giant compared to the PC TBS one, and that is what it is, no IP can make up for that.
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