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| Thread: HEROES IV rocks/sux ? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted May 05, 2002 10:58 AM |
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they should have said : its gonna be a new game when it will be finished. The first Patch 16 MB lol where is that gonna end ....
Motorschaaf
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bestanden
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 05, 2002 11:26 AM |
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dumbing down
Comparing the strategies apparent in a one month old game to strategies developed over several years of Homm3 is just plain silly, so here goes some silliness:
Why should you know what hero the opponent is developing until you develop an intelligence strategy to find out? Why should there be an instant crystal ball at the beginning of each game? Which strategy is deeper and more challenging, clicking on a thieves guild button (or worse, right clicking on your towns to view your oppornent's towns... boy that's real strategy) or carefully sending out actual recon units knowing you can only have eight stacks?
Do you clear a mine or clear the way for recon on the other side of your initial area? Do you set sentries in your crucial blind areas and use up one of your alloted stacks, or keep them moving and uncovering the map? How close can you get to the opponents flagged structure without being seen? Do you flag his gold mine and reveal yourself or maintain surprise?
Have you even thought about all the strategic and tactical implications of the shroud? Can you conceive of a strategy where you lure the opponents army out and then sneak into his castle with your thief or army hidden in the shroud? How about luring the opponent into the attack radius of a strong wandering stack that he can't see yet but you can, LOL. I would piss my pants if I could pull that off in a game, and something like that would be nearly impossible in Homm3. How about trailing the opponent's army with your thief and waiting for his hero/heroes to split out of the army and go to a tree, giving the opportunity to play assasin? Do you split your tactics/combat hero off from your army, take more creature losses because of it, but take two towns that day instead of one? Does your opponent have a thief trailing you when you do this? Granted that some of these were strategic issues in homm3 also, but homm4 really amplifies them.
Why should armies regenerate only on the magic seventh day? Is this the basis for a strategy or just an unrealistic limitation in the game? You have three towns, one is about to be under seige and you think there may be a thief near one of the other towns, you are trying to stage an army in the third town. How do you allocate your limited resources to hurt the opponent the most when he attacks, find the thief and stage an attack army? On what day do you get your dragon? You better know exactly how many and what kind of troops you will get in each of your towns tomorrow. Is that "dumbed down?" The fact that armies regenerate every day adds depth to these types of issues...it's not something they "took out".
One thing Homm4 does is make it absolutely crucial how levels are spent, i.e., do you stop developing the thief/lord/knight, etc. at expert level and begin another hero or keep pushing the first one higher. This was a nonissue in Homm3 because you could only have one hero on an army in any given battle. Those extra levels are expensive on the same hero, but may be worth it. Do you try to develop a mage to hypnotize or develop a bunch of mages to shoot ice bolts? In Homm3 there was one "main" and a bunch of hunter-gatherer-chainers. In Homm4 this will not be the case. It will be quite possible for 2-3 relatively low level heroes to defeat a high level hero. This was rarely the case in Homm3. What about a MP map where each player starts with a high level hero in prison in a hard to defend outlying opponent's town? An interesting idea? Do you spend resources on keeping the opponent from his high level hero in your prison or forfeit the town and build at home?
It is refreshing, IMO, that the economic development centers around heroes as much as it does around flagging mines in homm4, i.e. thieves (spend money/levels on stealth and steal the resources, or on creatures to clear the mines?) and lords. Did you really enjoy flagging mines and keeping circuit running heroes going from windmill to fairy circle to dwelling? I have always hated that aspect of Homm.
There is just as much build strategy in Homm4 as in 3. Do you build the much more resource intensive titan for range or settle for the cheaper golem? Do you build the efreet for brute strength and speed or the horse for "fear bombs?" the brute phoenix or the fairy spellcaster/confusion bomb? Saying there were 14 units available in a town in Homm3 is disingenuous. Upgrades were a real deep strategy... do you have the resources to do it or not? Honestly, how many times did you buy unupgraded creatures once upgrades were available? It was pretty obvious which upgrades were worth it and which weren't.
Homm4 handles movement much more intelligently. Did you really enjoy carrying a "squire" around with your main and shifting the whole army except for the fastest unit off the main every day? How much of your army should you allocate to home defense and how much to attack? This is one of the core elements of strategy that chaining/TP and DD obviated in Homm3. I forsee an army with a thief out front doing recon and then the slower elements trailing behind the faster with the spearhead deciding how much force it needs to bring to the next battle and what the costs of waiting for supply. This sounds like strategic depth to me, not dumbing down.
IMO, Homm4 removes alot of the luck elements of Homm3 and replaces them with skill elements and the focus has been shifted from gathering resources to how to spend them, i.e., do you go for broke and buy your combat hero a bunch of potions and hit the opponent early or try to field a creature army? This game is EXACTLY like its predecessor except with many of the broken elements removed and with more options for depth. A mapmaker can easily create a map that is exactly like Homm3 even name a hero tazar and start him with expert defense and name the opponent Hack and start him with expert offense. Hell those two are already in the game.
Turning to the "personality" of the units, I remember being pissed at the look of the titan in homm3. To me a titan will always be a homm2 titan. I got used to it, though, and loved playing homm3 despite the fact I didn't like what they did with the titan. Generally, IMO, the units in HOMM4 have tons more personality than Homm3. Compare the lowly but cool mohawked centaur in homm4 to the wimpy homm3 centaur. Efreet, medusas, elementals, elves, skeletons, devils, angels, cyclops, fairy dragons, genies, magi all appeal to me more in homm4 than homm3. Unicorns, behemoth and dragon golems suck, IMO, but I'll bet that there are plenty of homm players out there who like the way unicorns look and I'll get used to it.
Enough I guess for one night but this game truly advances the homm series and absolutely does not "dumb it down."
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My daddy drives a UFO
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 05, 2002 02:18 PM |
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Bestanden, I couldnt disagree more. But thats only my opinion.
This game to me does not seem to be a sequel to heroes3, it is a totally different game. Why package it and call it heroes 4? because it will sell. They removed a ridiculous amount of strategy, they changed so much it is no longer heroes to me, they should have called it something else. All the things you mentioned were related directly to heroes...when creatures appear to be recruited, hero battles, etc etc, I dont want to go on, I've said it before, but it is so unlike previous heroes to me, I just cant get into it and I so badly want to.
I'll give it another crack when I get some more RAM and the multi patch comes out. I want to like it, why cant I?
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ScareCrow
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 05, 2002 04:08 PM |
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Dumbed Down?
I liked upgrading creatures, but I don't feel losing that option took away any strategic value. Heroes IV you have to decide which creature upgrade to build, and your answer will most likely depend on what your opposition is playing.
So getting this information will be vital to your future sucess throughout the game. Plus once your decision is made there is no going back. Choose wisely!
I do think that getting creatures on day 1 added some tension to the game, but getting creatures daily, and being able to have creature stacks without heroes adds more depth to the game. Yes, say good bye to chaining! Chaining was'nt a strategy in Heroes III it was a necessity. By removing chaining they did not IMO remove any strategy.
In Heroes IV I feel gold becomes even more important. You may want to consider guarding your vital mines. Plus by placing guards at your mines it adds to your viewing area which in Heroes IV is going to be vital. The shroud to me adds some tension to the game, but I guess we're really test that out when the MP patch comes out.
Heroes personality. I feel that they should definitely give each heroe a special ability just like in heroes III, and allow you to decide who you will start with. I believe if they did, that would plese a lot of Heroes III players, and bring back some of the personality of the game. I do like developing my Heroe in Heroes IV. I think this adds to your strategy. You decide what bonus your heroe will receive by the skills you choose. Do you go for that all powerful Mage and let your combat skills suffer, or do you concentrate on the combat skills and lose out on the magic. Of course you could add more than one heroe to your army, and develop both.
We could all type forever, but I think the real point to this whole thing is that this is a different game! I believe this version of Heroes is more balanced, and will add some more fun to MP games. I do think that some elements that they left out from Heroes III should be put back, but only those elements that won't destroy the balance of the game.
Mocara, thanks for the response. I'm not sure we will ever sway each other one way or the other, but I hope that when the MP patch comes out you'll give the game an honest shot. Look me up when the patch comes out and we're battle it out in the game.
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Dismay
Known Hero
Dark Knight
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posted May 05, 2002 04:24 PM |
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Scarecow , i tottaly agree with you
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Midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 06, 2002 01:10 AM |
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Quote:
Yes, say good bye to chaining! Chaining was'nt a strategy in Heroes III it was a necessity. By removing chaining they did not IMO remove any strategy.
removing chaining removes heaps of tactical moves and therefore strategy. it also slows the game dramatically (which is what is bugging me)
here is one scenario, u want to explore but think ur town might be vulnerable, np, just leave a chain of scouts between main and town. if u see a threat, chain army back and retreat the hero off a neutral stack, and ur home with army and main hero. So that strategy for expansion is now gone. Now if u think town is threatened u cant expand unless u get tp. Tell me the strategy u would use to replace the one that was taken away...
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted May 06, 2002 02:32 AM |
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Quote:
I'll give it another crack when I get some more RAM and the multi patch comes out. I want to like it, why cant I?
thats what I keep sayin...cept i got the RAM lol
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I will not lose.
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Kuma
Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
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posted May 06, 2002 08:01 AM |
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Quote:
Rychen I too am waiting for a veteran to tell me what I've missed.
-Mocara
Hey Moc u've missed something: H4 is great.
I am lying now, but that is ur only chance of a vet saying these words to u.
Man.... H4 sucks. Anyone wanne buy mine? half price.
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted May 06, 2002 08:12 AM |
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I liked h4 initially...but I dislike 3do so much now that I slowly started disliking h4.
However...when multiplayer comes out (or if it does) I will give h4 its last shot. I wont judge whether it will be bad in multi or not until I see it in action. and as impatient as I was to have it released, I do realize if it was released early and crappy that itd kill h4 for sure. so maybe h4 will be saved...only time will tell. so maybe wait to sell it kuma 
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I will not lose.
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted May 06, 2002 09:26 AM |
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Where is Khayman when we need him?
Remember in H3 when they threatened to make the forge town and Khayman threatened to kill Gus and send him that pic of him holding the machine gun?
Maybe that's the answer.
Khayman storm the 3do compound and put a gun to that bitc*'s head and see if we can get the staff hired back.
Time to fix this game.
-Mocara
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted May 06, 2002 11:08 PM |
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HOMM4`s AI is the worse in computer game history. Both AI's player controled and AI's neutral monsters in fights.
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Kehnon
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 07, 2002 12:25 AM |
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I guess what u can say about this game is that if u havent been "taken" by the world of homm 1-2-3 u might be able to like homm4 but thats ONLY because u dont know what the game really is / was  !!!!!
i agree with the fact that calling this game heroes 4 almost could be considered as false advertising !!!!!
Gotta remember to take those snows to court 
My game is for sale to thats for sure and i underbid half price anyday !!!
THIS GAME SUCKS !!!
and another thing how many people will be able to play an online game without being killed bu there wife/ husband i am sure it will be SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO long games that it will die quickly so some other company should take up the original heroes idea since i guess 3do dont want it anymore !!
so my opinion must go to the sux 
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Grythandril
Famous Hero
who is a Chaotic Wizard
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posted May 07, 2002 11:36 AM |
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On the contary the game rocks.
Let me make one point clear.
Heroes IV is not Heroes III.
This is a new game with the basic elements of the past heroes game. There are newer ideas and a lot more strategical possibilities invovled.
Different magic against different magic.
Different creatures again different creatures.
Different tactics against different tactics.
In Heroes III battles, it was possible for both players to use the same spell against each other ie Chain Lightning. Now that will be slighty difficult to use. Death against Life, Order against Chaos etc.
True the Ai is slighty low on teh adventure map but a patch can probaly fix that. On the Battlefield it is very good and deserves respect for this.
Human again human will be very interesting to see. I am not a veteran nor am i a newbie. I am a player of the Heroes Series. With every new Heroes game that comes out there will be more dramatic changes that will enchance the game.
Heroes IV is here to stay whether we like it or not. (At least until heroes V comes out which will be a very long time)
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Might is Power
Magic is Power
Honor is Power
Power Rules Above All
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted May 07, 2002 02:22 PM |
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so far - it sucks ass ass !!
- the graphics are confusing and ugly
- the bugs are horrible
- multiplayer is missing ( well i tried hotseat a few times but was just boring )
- heroes are all the same
- the game got no soul
- system reqirements are way too high
i pray that the following patches gonna change my opinion...but i really doubt it ....
HOMMschaaf
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted May 07, 2002 06:38 PM |
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On the battlefield AI is worse than ever. You may never discover why cause you will die of boredom before reaching that point. Defeating 10 black dragons in H3 with a lvl 15 hero and 3 imps was a joke. In H4 it is reality.
- Frank
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted May 07, 2002 11:04 PM |
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Well basically mayhaps the patch can fix the AI problem so you can beat a campaign where they wont have 50 Thunder Birds in week 2 but also who cares we are going to be playing each other when multi comes out not the com.
I not played the com in heroes 3 in yrs & when the patch comes out I probally wont play AI there either except campaings when they decide to make the game a little fair.
Patience everyone lets see at least what it's like playing onling then judging since day 1 yes.
WIth Love
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Dismay
Known Hero
Dark Knight
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posted May 09, 2002 12:34 PM |
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People are playing Single too.. not only MULTIPLAYER
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Sir_Elric
Responsible
Famous Hero
Having a bad hair day.
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posted May 09, 2002 12:37 PM |
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I like it!
Bring on multiplayer!
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Neverwinter Nights - "City of Melnibone"
Direct connect - ausnwn2.dyndns.org:5121
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Dismay
Known Hero
Dark Knight
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posted May 09, 2002 12:39 PM |
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Quote:
I like it!
Bring on multiplayer!
FINNALY!!!!!!! some one like it! but vote poll ..still ROCKS lead
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Tc_Fear
Famous Hero
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posted May 09, 2002 04:47 PM |
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hi
hi dismay I vote for ROCK !!!
It rock realy
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'the only thing necessery for the triumph of evel is for good men to do nothing'
Edmund Burke
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