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| Thread: HEROES IV rocks/sux ? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV |
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Midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 12, 2002 05:34 PM |
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more on the dying art of chaining
well ya mustnt play randoms badangel cuz chaining army is essential when u hit dead ends and u need to flick the army back to the other end of chain to expand in a different direction. I mentioned the chain back to town as defensive technique (in an earlier post). Launching an assault on a town is now very difficult as frank said in one of earlier posts, cuz defender will have many extra days growth advantage, rather than chaining army out. So there r 3 different uses of chaining that have been lost.
When ppl say chaining is not strategic i dunno what they mean? All the chaining tricks facilitate faster games (tho individual turns might be long when a battle chain is set up). Pace of play is very strategic.
There r serious pace problems in H4. The designers know it too. Got those little horse troughs all over the campaign maps and often gloves and boots too. H4 is gonna work on small cluttered maps where u can do stuff without moving too much. And will all the summoning and illusions and other tricky spells r gonna have long turns no matter what.
In H3 i had to visualise where my heroes would end up in 2 or 3 turns or so, so that my important chains r set up. Now i can just use a ruler on the screen and see where i'll be in 3 days *yawns*
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted May 12, 2002 06:35 PM |
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regarding chaining in h3 and h4
1 thing ya gotta remember... heroes 3 and heroes 4 are 2 different games, and from the little ive played heroes 4, I find you use multiple heroes/armies more often than in heroes 3 to make up for no chainin, and of course if heroes 4 ever becomes popular peeps will find new ways to make up against dead ends, etc..
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I will not lose.
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Grythandril
Famous Hero
who is a Chaotic Wizard
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posted May 12, 2002 06:50 PM |
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Gee
If you guys hate Heroes IV, god knows how you will react when they bring out Heroes V.
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Might is Power
Magic is Power
Honor is Power
Power Rules Above All
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted May 12, 2002 07:01 PM |
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if we critisize HOMM 4 over and over again maybe 3DO(H)
will go back to the roots with HOMM 5 
i still hope the fired programmers start to make their own game..
Motorschaaf
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bestanden
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 12, 2002 07:27 PM |
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>chaining army is essential when u hit dead ends and u need >to flick the army back to the other end of chain to expand >in a different direction.
If you are talking about recon, then single units do nicely in Homm4. If you are talking about clearing mines, then thieves can hasten the process. Also, heroes like archers/barbarians can defeat weak stacks by themselves very early on. If you are talking about needing to expand in two directions simultaneously, that isn't really a factor in most games, but point taken. Moreover, because retreating a lone hero to a town doesn't cost any rehire money, you can whittle some stacks down bit by bit. Granted there are some time wasters in Homm4... fairy dragon/confusion, genie/song of peace, fast archer/slow walkers, etc. These eat up time, but I recall many homm3 games where my opponent had ten and twenty minute turns one after the other, and I'm thinking "what in the hell is he/she doing?"
>When ppl say chaining is not strategic i dunno what they >mean? All the chaining tricks facilitate faster games (tho >individual turns might be long when a battle chain is set >up). Pace of play is very strategic.
I tried an experiment yesterday. Played the XL map, Zanfa's challenge, on intermediate difficulty. I played all six player slots, no computer players and really tried to concentrate on how long the turns were taking. Found that cheesy things like sprite battles can take a long time in the game, but so what, the same was true in Homm3! Just like Homm3, the first week of turns seems to take awhile, but my average time per turn, exclusive of combats was 2-4 minutes, not materially different from Homm3. Also, this is a new game and takes some time for everyone to get used to. I don't see any reason why this game can't eventually be played with 4 minute turns, which is what most people play anyway when playing seriously. The first two weeks of turns, granted, take more time because of splitting units out for recon from the start, but this means that the overall game should take less time. After all, the quicker the strategic objectives are revealed, the faster the game goes.
>There r serious pace problems in H4. The designers know it >too. Got those little horse troughs all over the campaign >maps and often gloves and boots too.
1)You are talking about map design elements, not game design elements. Also, name me just one great Homm campaign that came with the game. They are all mediocre from Roland to SOD. It's what mapmakers do later that makes this a great game (god bless them).
2)Think about this... Logistics is almost always available to every player very early on. Such was not the case in Homm3. Have you seen how far a GM pathfinding hero moves? You can usually get to Master or GM pathfinding in the second or third week.
3)One more thing to think about... is it possible that the homm4 team, proud of all the new map structures, may have oversaturated the maps included in the game? The games seem longer because there is an overabundance of places to visit, and because the game is new, players haven't prioritized their moves as much as after several years of homm3 play.
>H4 is gonna work on small cluttered maps where u can do >stuff without moving too much. And will all the summoning >and illusions and other tricky spells r gonna have long >turns no matter what.
What is is about summoning/illusions that will make longer turns?? If anything, in my experience of playing too many hours of this game, those spells SPEED UP the game. The "tricky" spells, with extremely few exceptions (and I can think of only Sanctuary) speed up the battles and absolutely don't slow them down. In fact, just like utopias/fly/dd/tp were the game hasteners in homm3, high level spells like hypno (the loser dies faster), disintegrate (the loser dies faster), hand of death (the loser dies faster), dragon strength (the loser dies faster), will be the game enders in homm4. The thing is that there are strategic counters to all these, unlike utopias/fly/dd/tp. In homm3 if your opponent has dd and you don't, all other things equal, you're done. In homm4, the game enders are at least determinable in battle based on the strategic foresight of the players.
>Now i can just use a ruler on the screen and see where >i'll be in 3 days *yawns*
I am truly sorry that the great excitement that chaining added to the game has been taken away LOL. I get more excited about doing laundry than setting up a chain of heroes. Are you thinking about the fact that armies no longer require a hero to move? and that armies replenish daily?? and caravans??? There is tons of strategic depth in Homm4 that comes from realistic strategic factors and doesn't rely on the highly artificial chaining technique.
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My daddy drives a UFO
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted May 12, 2002 07:51 PM |
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hmmmm...nah, ill just wait for that book to hit the movies 
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"Youre zeroes and ones, youre wrong where im right"
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Dismay
Known Hero
Dark Knight
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posted May 13, 2002 11:26 AM |
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i dont know about you all ... but every time when i play homm4(everyday about 2-5hours) i really ENJOY playing it ... so it have bugs! so what is 1.0 what u want ..
3do could relase the game at summer with not bugs and multiplayer in but they wanted to bring to homm4 early than summer.. i played all heroes games.. i enjoyed playing them all but homm4 is something more special... i really thought the game will be suck when i heard about ONLY 6 castles but when i first played the game ... i couldnt stop ..
so i dont know all about but i'm sure after few months u'll stop playing homm3 and say why i didnt played homm4 ..
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Midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 13, 2002 05:58 PM |
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wow big reply there bestanden, guess i'll do the same here...
I still stand by my assertion that chaining techniques of H3 are strategic and much more than just a way of doing multiple battles. On maps where u break into the middle, a 1 day advantage can win u the game, so any pace speeding technique is strategic.
On turn length (the real-time pace if u like), i think turns will be shorter on H4 but not by as much as ppl think. Here are 2 techiques to try out.
Firstly for Order magic. Make a row of 5 single genies, a stack of the rest of genies (dont need many) and a hero with illusion spell (not hard to get). Use the singles to cast slow round 1 on the enemy. Round 2 move singles to back of map so out of reach. Build an illusion stack with remaining genies and hero(s). Rounds 3... use single stacks to cast song of peace on any enemy that gets close. Use illusioned stack to hit the enemy creatures. This is very effective but makes for a long turn. Teleport helps too, when a slowed stack gets close, use teleport to move it to back of battlefield.
No losses with life magic using "tricky" spells. Put martyr spell on life magic hero, to protect a tough but small stack (since dont have big army yet). Take that small stack out to meet enemy. Keep using all types of life enhancing spells on hero that u can. Each round the small stack will do a small amount of damage. I did a battle like this on one of the campaigns that took well over 10 mins to get a gold mine. I had 2 life heroes, and when the first ran out of mana, did martyr to the 2nd hero.
Both these techiques allow big battles with small armies and moderately developed heroes (not unrealistic).
>>There r serious pace problems in H4. The designers know >>it too. Got those little horse troughs all over the >>campaign maps and often gloves and boots too.
>1)You are talking about map design elements, not game >design elements. Also, name me just one great Homm >campaign that came with the game. They are all mediocre >from Roland to SOD. It's what mapmakers do later that >makes this a great game (god bless them).
Nope. The point i was making was that the designers had to overcome game design problems of pace when doing maps. They chose to use map design elements to achieve that. TOH map designers will face the same issues.
>2)Think about this... Logistics is almost always available >to every player very early on. Such was not the case in >Homm3. Have you seen how far a GM pathfinding hero >moves? You can usually get to Master or GM pathfinding in >the second or third week.
ok, that is worth investigating. Has anyone tried this as a strategy to improve pace of clearing a map? If u take a magic hero with u as well, is the pace affected?
>players haven't prioritized their moves as much as after >several years of homm3 play.
sure, but still is a LOT slower, not just a bit slower.
>>Now i can just use a ruler on the screen and see where >>i'll be in 3 days *yawns*
>I am truly sorry that the great excitement that chaining >added to the game has been taken away LOL. I get more >excited about doing laundry than setting up a chain of >heroes. Are you thinking about the fact that armies no >longer require a hero to move? and that armies replenish >daily?? and caravans??? There is tons of strategic depth >in Homm4 that comes from realistic strategic factors and >doesn't rely on the highly artificial chaining technique.
H4 troop/hero logistics may well be realistic and more exciting than laundry but it is slow and boring when u dont compare it with a laundry task Of ur suggested questions, only caravans adds any real pace, and is still a lot slower than a hero chain. Daily troops are a marginal help cuz u need to collect many days to do anything, so only as fast as the last troops to arrive. So dont see the "tons" of logistical strategy that u suggest to replace chaining. Yes there is some interesting strategy in other parts of H4 gameplay but the adventure map pace is much slower and much more predictable than in H3.
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bestanden
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 13, 2002 06:35 PM |
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speed issues
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
1) I agree that chaining is a highly strategic part of homm3, just artificial (and there's nothing really wrong with that in a game filled with dragons and unicorns ). I prefer the realism of homm4 though.
2) The point of all my blather about troops every day and no heroes necessary to move them is that rather than chain them, you can "trickle" them out to the front lines, or stage them at strategic locations that are convenient to multiple objectives without using heroes.
3) Pathfinding applies to the whole army, gloves are cumulative, one on each hand, and put this with boots and you have a very fast army. I had an army with a movement over 60 last night. It is a little tough to advance pathfinding in order and life, but ridiculously easy for the other alignments who can hire a thief day one. And my most confident prediction about homm4 is that everyone who can in MP will be hiring a thief on day one. It is that much of a no-brainer.
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My daddy drives a UFO
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Dismay
Known Hero
Dark Knight
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posted May 18, 2002 07:25 PM |
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for now i'm playing less heroes is started to build maps it's really fun!
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Midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 19, 2002 03:47 AM |
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Quote:
Pathfinding applies to the whole army, gloves are cumulative, one on each hand, and put this with boots and you have a very fast army. I had an army with a movement over 60 last night. It is a little tough to advance pathfinding in order and life, but ridiculously easy for the other alignments who can hire a thief day one. And my most confident prediction about homm4 is that everyone who can in MP will be hiring a thief on day one. It is that much of a no-brainer.
sounds good, will have to try a thief to get army pace up
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted May 19, 2002 04:09 AM |
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one thing i hate a lot about homm 4 hotseat: that u can only hire 1 extra hero per week.
flaggin dwelling and mines in the first weeks of a game takes forever - and that makes the game boring as hell. i hope mapmakers will find a way to solve that - slowstart problem.
ineed8heroesschaaf
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Midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 19, 2002 04:24 AM |
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maybe a few easy to get heroes and arties like gloves will be near starting town. i think most players will not bother with mines (even wood/ore) in week 1 except for the one of their alignment, dont need resources like u do in H3 to build guild.
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splexx
Known Hero
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posted May 19, 2002 07:52 AM |
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Edited By: splexx on 20 May 2002
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I agree
This is fu**d up...1000gold and 1 gem for level 5 mage guild????
Less emphasis on building castle, cause collecting resources is much more profitable...
No Capitol,,,no upgrades,,,phuking fog that covers already uncovered terrirory,,,and need magnifying glass to see stats,,,msgs,,,no timer,,,
Gonna be real hard to get used to...
But this is just my first impression..to be honest I hated H3 at first,,,cause it was so different from H2!!
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Azif..
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Pure_Chaos
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Destroyer of Morons
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posted May 20, 2002 10:23 PM |
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Quote:
This is fu**d up...1000gold and 1 gem for level 5 mage guild????
Thats because getting a magic school to GM level is already hard. In HoMM III magic schools were easily mastered, but Mage Guilds cost was high. Now costs have been lowered, but heroes have harder time mastering magic schools.
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