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| Thread: Pros and Cons of H1, H2 and H3 |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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ArdentWyrm
Famous Hero
King of the Elder Dragons
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posted January 07, 2023 09:11 PM |
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Yeah, fog of war is horrible for HoMM IMO.
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Torment is blinding. It lies. Its pollution steals my sense. It promises: destroy everything and the pain will cease.
- Kralkatorrik
https://dragcave.net/user/ArdentWyrm
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DarkAtom
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 07, 2023 09:35 PM |
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Salamandre said:
introduction of combat wait function
That is very debatable. I have to disagree.
IMO, the wait function makes the gameplay boring. In 90% of H3 battles, you spam wait on the first turn. Is it really fun to try to do nothing for as long as you can? Using the wait button is a no-brainer, and that's a bad thing. And when this "waiting phase" is over, you just use your fast units to hit the enemy on the wait turn, and then chicken out on the next turn if needed.
Sure, it creates a lot of possibilities for abusing the AI, for abusing the game's mechanics (1 sprite can kill 1000 behemoths) and probably for abusing every combat feature that the game has to offer. But do we really want that? Indeed, a normal player who just wants a good evening will probably use the Wait function how it was intended to be used. But let's face it: most people on this forum abuse the wait button - just ask the MP folks who break on 115, or the challenge map (e.g. Wayfarer) players.
I don't deny that the Wait button creates a lot of possibilities, but in its current state most of those possibilities end up getting abused.
Also, H2 didn't need a wait button. Smaller battlefields, no range penalty and flyers which can go anywhere are a few of those reasons. Its absence also raises the incentive to use slow creatures as well - they have turns after the enemy comes into your reach. If a wait button is present, fast creatures can also go last if you desire, which makes slow creatures useless (this is why hydras, golems and ogres are good units in H2 but quite mediocre in H3).
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"If you get scared of doing what's right you might as well lay down and die" - Wulfstan, Heroes of Might and Magic V: Hammers of Fate
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 07, 2023 10:20 PM |
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Fully agreed. Wait function is counterproductive. It was a shiny new toy but got old and dull fast.
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baronus
Legendary Hero
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posted January 07, 2023 11:27 PM |
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In fact its progress line. I think that AI in HI is the best worst in HII and at the end HIII. Its first and main pro HI. But all other content is better in higher title. But I think that gameplay HIII is too long. Hard to finish X map! XL maps is for a lot of days. HI and HII are very dynamic if we compare.
All game is good and we should play all!
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martingalindo
Hired Hero
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posted January 07, 2023 11:49 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Fully agreed. Wait function is counterproductive. It was a shiny new toy but got old and dull fast.
maybe but it gives you options, make the battle longer for sure, not always is the best to wait. If the enemy got range adventage you should probably not wait
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DarkAtom
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 07, 2023 11:55 PM |
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Edited by DarkAtom at 00:00, 08 Jan 2023.
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martingalindo said:
If the enemy got range adventage you should probably not wait
So that you just enter his side and get shot with no range penalty? The point of waiting is so that your (fast) units get shot once with half damage and then they directly go in melee, since they can travel the entire battleground in 2 moves (wait turn + next turn). And even if they couldn't, you move just a little bit so that they can cross in 2 turns, but still benefit from the range penalty, and next turn you wait. You can see the AI using these tactics too.
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martingalindo
Hired Hero
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posted January 08, 2023 12:32 AM |
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DarkAtom said:
So that you just enter his side and get shot with no range penalty? The point of waiting is so that your (fast) units get shot once with half damage and then they directly go in melee, since they can travel the entire battleground in 2 moves (wait turn + next turn). And even if they couldn't, you move just a little bit so that they can cross in 2 turns, but still benefit from the range penalty, and next turn you wait. You can see the AI using these tactics too.
I agree with the first part you wait and then attack but even then when your fast creatures push if they do alone you are exposing them alone.
Wait is super usefull vs neutrals and when you are defending or having the range advantage even if you remove the wait mechanic people will defend or (if u disable defend too) make a fake movement, to the closest tile if they got range advantage
OhforfSake said:
Waiting too much can also be a bad decision.
Completely agree
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted January 08, 2023 01:27 AM |
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Just imagine H3 had no wait button:
I think fast factions will have an overwhelming advantage.
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted January 08, 2023 03:42 AM |
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Salamandre said:
I like non permanent fog of war, as in Heroes. Just tried recently last Master of Magic game, it has permanent fog of war, once you step out from the area, it closes again. A turn off for me.
Same. I just dislike the permanent fog of war used in Heroes 4.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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zydar
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 08, 2023 05:54 AM |
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Why not include H4, H5, H6, H7 ?
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted January 08, 2023 06:01 AM |
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zydar said:
Why not include H4, H5, H6, H7 ?
Because I like H1-H3 best. And I like H4 too... but this is the H1-H3 subforum. 
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted January 08, 2023 06:50 AM |
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DarkAtom said:
But let's face it: most people on this forum abuse the wait button - just ask the MP folks who break on 115, or the challenge map (e.g. Wayfarer) players.
Can't be called abuse in any circumstance, since is one of the main features in battle. The game is designed with that in mind, why would anyone feel guilty for playing the game the way it asks for.
Breaking on 115 in MP is possible due to tons of parameters, skills and choices, the wait feature is a precious tool you have to master. In MP, automatically clicking on wait without thinking a lot before will surely make you lose the game.
The biggest abuse in any game is reload, anyway.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 08, 2023 06:53 AM |
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DarkAtom said:
Sure, it creates a lot of possibilities for abusing the AI, for abusing the game's mechanics (1 sprite can kill 1000 behemoths) and probably for abusing every combat feature that the game has to offer.
A natural thing in chess. Wait and your move and wait and your move, and then destroy your life. You haven't other and saving move, because of your opponent found waiting move.
What is a waiting move in chess?
waiting move (plural waiting moves) (chess) A move that is not tactical except in that it puts the burden to move on the opposing player.
https://www.chess.com/article/view/greatest-chess-waiting-moves-by-grandmasters
Ok my Remote Mountain II (WoG/ERA), you meet AIs destroy Dark Champions are 40 att, 55 def, 500hp, 12 speed, etc on the cursed land. When you should to destroy Dark Champions, but your time isn't enough. AIs used HUMAN ABUSE. Remote Mountain II for champion players..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted January 08, 2023 10:41 AM |
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Salamandre said:
The biggest abuse in any game is reload, anyway.
I don't realod. Except for, when thing's didn't go my way 
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Drakon-Deus
Undefeatable Hero
Nixonite
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posted January 08, 2023 11:10 AM |
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OhforfSake said:
Hey it's not my fault I am a bad player..
Do you blame the developers then?
just kidding.
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Horses don't die on a dog's wish.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 08, 2023 11:51 AM |
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baronus said:
In fact its progress line. I think that AI in HI is the best worst in HII and at the end HIII. Its first and main pro HI. But all other content is better in higher title. But I think that gameplay HIII is too long. Hard to finish X map! XL maps is for a lot of days. HI and HII are very dynamic if we compare.
All game is good and we should play all!
Yes. The reason is that the game is the most simple, on both maps. In battle, units can have just one spell on them, so every new spell DISpels the old one. No wait sommand, no silly hero secobdary development and maps are small(er).
heymlich said:
Just imagine H3 had no wait button:
I think fast factions will have an overwhelming advantage.
They don't. Because if you want to hit anything you must move. The correct way to do it is shown in Songs of conquest, but H4 was better in that regard as well.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted January 08, 2023 01:36 PM |
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Drakon-Deus said:
Salamandre said:
I like non permanent fog of war, as in Heroes. Just tried recently last Master of Magic game, it has permanent fog of war, once you step out from the area, it closes again. A turn off for me.
Same. I just dislike the permanent fog of war used in Heroes 4.
I love.. But in the Gathering Storm AIs know where are you.. Then mad 3DO removed AI bonuses.. The game became still the worst.. I've found that you press and you find enemies under fog of war in the Gathering Storm.. Winds of War you can't press to find enemies.. For me an easy to play fog of war, when real fight.. H3 you walk out from enemies or meet them without fight, because of you see their troops, etc
MWM2 aka Magician, Warrior and Master II.. You try to kill all Avenger's armies and heroes before time event tells Armageddon, and the game over.. So their (AI) strategy used stealth Bandits without move in hidden places, they waited for time event.. No enough mines, etc So Scouting plus artifacts 
When you find all them, and you can play normally against Human or AI players, thus MP..
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Fight MWMs - stand teach
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martingalindo
Hired Hero
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posted January 08, 2023 05:12 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
The correct way to do it is shown in Songs of conquest, but H4 was better in that regard as well.
When i played Song of Conquest it has a wait on specific creatures like an skill.
To be honest i found it a lazy approach to the lack of skill imagination.
Besides the game has serious balance problems in units, and lack identity
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heymlich
Famous Hero
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posted January 08, 2023 05:20 PM |
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martingalindo said:
Besides the game has serious balance problems in units, and lack identity
Which game hasn't.
Show me a game without balancing issues and I will show you a boring game
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martingalindo
Hired Hero
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posted January 08, 2023 05:29 PM |
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heymlich said:
Which game hasn't.
Show me a game without balancing issues and I will show you a boring game
I would argue the opposite or not the opposite but when the serius word is behind balance issues the game becomes woring
Or maybe i just dont like the game, feels like a weird hybrid between HoMM and Battle Brothers
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