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woj
Hired Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 02:29 PM |
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Edited by woj at 14:31, 29 Jun 2015.
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swinm said:
bloodsucker said:
No, there is a 7 skills absolute winner: logistics, earth, offense armorer, tactics, wisdom and air. The 8th is circunstancial.
This 7 skills set is far not winner on maps with lot of islands. (I know you play on only land in human vs human)
Well used Archery > Armorer imo
The 8th is circumstantial - means the 8th would be navigation in this case
You say this 7skills is not a clear winner... well if you don't have tactics with shooters army and your opponent has you're dead meat.
Unless you have 3 decent shooters(like tower) archery isn't worth taking. When you're shooters are dead your archery skill is wasted, armorer works on all of your stacks. Also defense specialist like tazar can easily 2 full series of shots from your shooters with acceptable loses.
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted June 29, 2015 02:33 PM |
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Edited by Kicferk at 14:34, 29 Jun 2015.
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Swinn,
If you mean multiplayer, then
You are entitled to your opinion but you are wrong.
Armorer will be useful in any sort of battle with forces having similar capabilities to yours, because it will affect any powerstacks you have all the time. While archery will only affect your shooting stacks(and in SoD it is quite rare to get an opportunity to get a powerstack of those) and only if they can shoot. Which means it will be effective less often.
Now, there are situtions when you can benefit from archery. For once, you play with tower and got several dwellings or built titans. Or you got pandora box with a lot of shooters. Or you get triple dungeon build with external dwelling of evil eyes. But they happen too rarely to say archery > armorer.
This situation changes a lot with HotA, which makes shooter powerstacs practically guaranteed(cyclops from banks, giants potentially upgradable to titans from banks).
If you mean singleplayer then
Sure, it is possible to design scenarios with fights winnable only through shooters, so that archery gets boost. It is also possible to design scenario winnable only through eagle eye. But it does not make eagle eye any better.
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bloodsucker
Legendary Hero
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posted July 01, 2015 12:25 AM |
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Kicferk said:
It is also possible to design scenario winnable only through eagle eye. But it does not make eagle eye any better.
In fact, if we agree that in an islands map Navigation is circunstancially better then we have to agree that in a map without mage guilds Eagle Eye circunstancially better.
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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 10:06 AM |
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And Earth Magic is far not clear winner.
Castle should have Water
Stronghold should have Air
Tower should have Air
etc
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 10:11 AM |
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You do realise that heroes can have more than one magic school, right?
Air + earth is a clear winner on random maps, sized L or larger, with no water.
DD/Fly and TP is all that is really needed to win. If you play without them haste, slow, shield and stone skin are very very effective spells vs both opponent and the map, and they are all on level 1.
Now, you could try providing some arguments next time, instead of unjustified conjectures. I know it's difficult, but it will make you look way less trolly.
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ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 03, 2015 11:38 AM |
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swinm said:
And Earth Magic is far not clear winner.
Castle should have Water
Stronghold should have Air
Tower should have Air
etc
I can understand your reasoning but perhaps you limit it just a bit too much? Stronghold and Tower does benefit from Air Magic but there is no "should", it comes down to what kind of player you are, the map, the tactic you intend to emply vs your foe and so on.
Castle is good with water but I cannot see there "should" here aswell.
Kicferk does have a point when he says you are allowed to have any opinion you desire but when heading out on the multiplayer arena it might turn invalid for a lot of reasons.
While Kicferk is a bit streamlined basing MGs by default use stats, it's his way of describing the usual picks and roads in the online games in an attempt to guide you and others. It does not have to make other magic schools useless, less worth or wrong (for example water magic with castle or Tower).
All magic schools got potential and the uses from other schools can either be extremely lethal to your enemy or as harmless as butterfly depending on the troops, tactics, artifacts etc. The charm of this game is that YOU decide the use of the skills. If you want a steady magic school - go for earth. If you want to gamble, go fire/water and if you want to blitz then go for air. There are many options and only you and your opponent.
But I wish to recall that this thread was designed for brilliant tactic share from the start so I suppose it needs to be cleaned up a bit (including this post).
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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 04:49 PM |
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I know you love Earth magic, but without TownPortal (one of the most disgusting things in homm3 so usually disabled) a well used Water Magic can be better. (If you don't rush in battles)
expert clone > expert resurrection
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 05:12 PM |
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Edited by Kicferk at 17:15, 03 Jul 2015.
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'Usually' is a a vague term.
I know WCL rules allow for TP, I know that HW rules allow for TP, I know many mapmakers include TP in their single player maps. If you ban it for yourself that doesn't mean it becomes 'usual'.
Now to the battle part. Earth magic is only partially so good because of what you can do with it in final battle. Its real strength is what you can do with it before final battle, against the map. Expert slow is level 1, costs 5 mana and allows you to take conservatories and most guards on the map without any significant loses. What does water magic have that in accessible early on, cheap and allows to take the same fights? Cure is too circumstantial, and bless gives too small boost to make the difference. And then there is shield and stone skin, both with small cost and from level 1. Easily accessible, cheap and very effective.
Clone will not help you early on, because
1) you will not get it quickly,
2) it costs a lot of mana, which your hero does not have early
3) it lasts around 1 turn, because AI prioritizes killing it
So against map earth is way way better. And that makes effectiveness of water magic in final battle irrelevant, because hero with earth will likely have
1) more army
2) more xp
3) better artifacts
Clone could be an effective spell, but quite often implosion will deal more damage at this point in game. Which is week 6 the latest. And then there is the problem of recanters cloak. Which makes water arguably worse in final battle than earth.
And of course what I wrote applies to L or larger random maps played competetively(and quite likely to a lot of fixed maps that are more or less balanced sized L or larger). So, Swinn, tell us under what conditions of gameplay is water as good as you describe it to be.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 03, 2015 06:34 PM |
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swinm said:
but without TownPortal (one of the most disgusting things in homm3 so usually disabled)
Town portal should be felt like a extra mobility and supply route for areas you already own (the fact that you conquer a town gives you control on area around it). I know a few mapmakers who keep town portal until late in their game, and usually those maps are the most boring ones.
My thumb rule for good map is: every turn you must advance, conquer something, at least one battle, so next turn is teasing you from the unknown. If you spend several turns to walk back to gather army, better use the common shortcut to this worthless walk: town portal, then the game keeps its internal rhythm. This rhythm can be straight, aggressive or limp. I like it aggressive 
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Era II mods and utilities
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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 07:43 PM |
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Edited by swinm at 19:58, 03 Jul 2015.
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Firstly, my games aren't only 1-2 months long.
Capitol first > rush
I rarely play online
My battle tactic: passive
Wait with everything, they cast something and come nearer, then cast some beautiful thing and kill them all. For this, water it better.
When playing levels, the only good thing I enjoy in expert earth is blinding the last enemy and resurrecting everything.
However, expert prayer is very good, and dispel revokes everything that isn't attacking spell. (or D.Ray)
Teleport is nice, water walk is good (but mostly unallowed as DD or Fly etc)
So water magic is very good for a peaceful player, maybe with the most peaceful Rampart town. Awesome!
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 03, 2015 08:12 PM |
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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 08:16 PM |
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Salamandre said:
Well, ok, your choice. But this strategy limits you to very easy maps only.
?
I'm playing XL + U 8 players maps in 180% these are not 'very easy' maps
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 08:17 PM |
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XL+U random maps vs 7 AI on 160%(there is no 180%) is easy.
The only maps vs AI that are challenging are custom maps where AI has enormus starting boost.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 03, 2015 08:19 PM |
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Ebonheart
Famous Hero
Rush the rush
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posted July 03, 2015 08:23 PM |
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Kicferk said:
XL+U random maps vs 7 AI on 160%(there is no 180%) is easy.
The only maps vs AI that are challenging are custom maps where AI has enormus starting boost.
Point taken Kic but I reckon there is little use of stating it. He is a young hero so perhaps sending him a PM with some advices for maps might be better?
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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted July 03, 2015 11:46 PM |
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Yeah I downloaded over 100 maps and deleted a lot. Now I have about 35 big XL maps. I had Lord of the Rings too.
However, I won't play it because I don't like maps with story and I hate LotR films, never seen any of them. 
180% would have been then 'Queen' difficulty.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 04, 2015 12:25 AM |
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Well, it happens that this LOTR map has zero story and is no related to lotr. Is just a title.
So I see you have zero curiosity about "other" ways of playing Heroes. That's fine, but then why discussing strategy if you use only 10% from game resources? Playing vs AI on random templates is very simplistic and limited game.
swinm said:
I hate LotR films, never seen any of them.
No wonder you do same to Heroes maps, you dislike them before trying. That's the spirit 
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swinm
Hired Hero
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posted July 04, 2015 10:10 AM |
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Edited by swinm at 10:20, 04 Jul 2015.
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Dear Salamandre
I checked LotR in mapeditor, and it was FULLY with events. After that don't say pls that 'it has no story'
I discuss strategies, because stopped at that 7 'winner' secondary skills, rush tactics etc
And everybody who reads this topic will think, this is heroes3
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Kicferk
Known Hero
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posted July 04, 2015 10:37 AM |
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Edited by Kicferk at 10:38, 04 Jul 2015.
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Are you trolling or what?
Are you saying that if map has events and therefore a story, that this is a reason for you to not play it?
Besides, a map can have events that don't have text.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted July 04, 2015 12:21 PM |
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The Lord of the Rings map I linked has 7 events, and beside all, it is a chinese map, the 7 (short) events are chinese. So is as much related to LOTR as I am Heroes VI expert.
There are surely 1000 LOTR maps out, you have one of them, I linked another one. Stop checking the one you have in maps folder when arguing here pls.
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This thread is pages long: 
