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| Thread: American-Roman Connection |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · NEXT» |
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Wolfman
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posted October 22, 2003 10:59 PM |
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American-Roman Connection
For Americans, something to think about.
*The Roman Connection
- Fall of the Roman Empire, how it relates to the U.S. now and what we need to do to deter our country from the fate of the less fortunate Romans. Let’s just crack open the old History book now, shall we. Hmmm, what lead up to the fall of the Romans? According to many history books today, historians believe it was a mixture of many things combined at once to produce the fall of the greatest empire the world has ever known.
1) “Hard work and virtue were replaced with greed and corruption.”
That’s a bad thing, back in the “day” people were a lot stronger and built this country to be strong too. A lot of people now don’t care about work so much anymore. People are always looking to get more by doing less. Of course you never really want to make things harder for yourself, but those who go out of their way to get out of work are the true lazy people. Not liking work doesn’t make you a lazy person, I don’t even like doing a lot of work sometimes, but things need to be done and someone needs to do them. Greed and corruption, a prime example of that is Enron. They set up false companies to take over and acquired all of the company’s wealth, even if it wasn’t really there. I’ve heard this called ballooning a company. It made the investor happy and more people invested making their company bigger. But then without much warning the great balloon went down like the Hindenburg. See where greed and corruption get you?
2) “Very high taxes led to social unrest.”
No one likes paying taxes. Oh boy there goes that mass generalization again, I have to stop doing that. Maybe some people do like paying taxes, but I digress. The United States revolted from Britain for that very same reason. But you do need to fund your government somehow, which is a good thing. But too much of a good thing is bad.
We do have an ever-growing national debt, and face it, it will not be getting any smaller. But hey, maybe if some of the millionaires like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet were to donate some of their billions of dollars to lessen the national debt, that would be great! But I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
3) “People within the empire become too self-centered”
It’s true, people are too self-centered here too. Decadence is a bad thing. Just look at the obesity problem in this country, 1 in 50 people is severely obese. That would be decadence in action. Way too much food, that’s all I have to say about that.
4) “Weakened military made up mostly of mercenaries.”
We don’t have mercenaries, but we have a large number of reserve forces in Iraq and such places. Even some National Guard units were sent to Iraq. That’s bad. I can see the draft being reinstated in several years because of our fragile military now. Clinton really screwed up when he cut the military in half, we still have the most powerful military in the world but all things considered we are weaker than we should be. Here’s a funny thing, Paul Begala, a co-host on Crossfire, said Clinton helped the military a lot during his presidency! What is this guy on? Clinton completely screwed up the military and there is nothing anyone can say to change that.
5)“Loss of public support” The people didn’t care anymore about the glory of Rome. The people were not proud to be Roman anymore. That is happening in this country too. The last thing that brought our country together was the September eleventh attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. People hung their American flags outside and congress sung “God Bless America”. (uh oh, there’s that word “God” again, but that’s another chapter) It was a sad time and Americans were very proud to be American. But just in the past two years the flags were coming down in the neighborhood, one by one. They still went out on special occasions like federal holidays but few even do that. American flag sales soared in the months after September eleventh, and the Boy Scouts and other organizations were bombarded with old tattered flags to be retired with dignity. Armed forces recruitment went up too, but now “patriotism” is dwindling in this country.
Kinda scary and sad all at the same time, huh?
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delfontes
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posted October 22, 2003 11:52 PM |
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Rome did last quite a while though didn't it? 
This topic brought up something that I saw yesterday that FLOORED me. I don't get upset all that easy, and I admit that the extent of my flag waving after 9/11 was a window sticker given free at BofA when I applied for a loan. I have another car now, the sticker didn't transfer (forgotten).
Yesterday, the guy in front of me in rush hour had a "flag" sticking out of their window hanging proudly.
The problem was, it was cloth, and not quickly even recognizable as an actual flag. It was so worn that only half of the stars were left, with the remainder of the flag completely missing. To picture it, maybe 1/4th was left, 3/4ths was just gone, with only a very jagged frayed jeans look at the end.
I wanted to honk my horn, roll down my window and Yell at him to get rid of it, or replace it. It's one thing to not have a flag, it's quite another to completely disregard it's significance and disrespect it to such an extent.
Sorry for the derail there, mods feel free to delete if requested.
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Wolfman
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posted October 23, 2003 12:12 AM |
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No, keep it here. It's on topic.
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privatehudson
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posted October 23, 2003 12:33 AM |
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Quote:
According to many history books today, historians believe it was a mixture of many things combined at once to produce the fall of the greatest empire the world has ever known.
Errrr no, the British empire was many many times larger than the Roman one, and if you take the start of our empire as Elizabeth I then this is 400+ years of our empire, the Roman empire in reality, under the Emperors existed as a unified state for about the same rough legnth of time. I'd say we beat them hands down
Anyways, to be frank this all reminds me of biblical sounds of doom and despair, the old "when there's war, famine and plauge the world will end" WELL HELLO! There's been those since the dawn of time! It's the same with this doom-mongering piece to be frank. If you can show me a time when those things weren't true then you win, but they have always been true. People are always self centered, always wanted to pay less tax than is needed, and so on. Take greed for example... Do you think it was a civilising zeal that caused your country to expand from 13 to 50 states? Or the greed for land, gold, resources and so on? Do you think Andrew Jackson was thinking of how benevolent he was when he threw out the Supreme court ruling and allowed settlers onto Cherokee land? Or was it greed?
The comparison of the armies is not even close. The "mercenaries" the romans used were to a man Barbarian tribes who the romans had fought earlier and bought off when they got too powerful, even their generals were barbarian, and naturally when the generals twigged that rome needed them more than they needed rome, they sacked it. I hardly think we're likely to see the Iraqui republican gaurd defending the white house under General Hussain somehow do you? Weak or not, National Gaurd or not, the army is still American, and can be improved again. Clinton hasn't destroyed it yet I would bet....
I find it quite disturbing that you equate patriotism solely with flag waving and joing the army though, that's nationalism. People don't have to wave flags to love their country. We hardly ever do that here (indeed there's an insane law stating buildings wishing to do so must apply for permission from the council of the area...) but that doesn't mean we're a bunch of unpatriotic backsliders... People have found new outlets for their patriotism, sport for example.
One other thing you forget to mention. The roman empire also fell because a fair few thousand barbarians rampaged into their lands or rebelled against their rule, overthrowing the emporer in the west. Somehow I can't see Mexico getting the courage to invade the states, and Canada has probably got a smaller army than there are troops in one US state methinks... Without such invasions the army and empire may have held together.
And finally if I may, much of the problem lay in the hands of the system of ruling by dictator, something that does not exist in the states either. Roman influence fluctuated for a few centuries, a good emporer (constantine, justinian and so on) would reinforce the empire, the worse ones would allow it to fall apart. Under democracy the theory would be that this will not be as much of a problem as the better candidate is usually elected. Or he fiddles the vote
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Celfious
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From earth
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posted October 23, 2003 12:34 AM |
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Rome could've been better! (as it could have been worse)
That goes without saying with ANY land, empire, polis, city state whatever!
I'm so sick of flags without a better 1 on top, the world flag. (yea thats right the one no one has made i think)
Rome, Athens, all those who used war, were selfish in their takings. They Actualy killed other ppl who were independantly civilized. Assyrains, babylonians, are bad in the same nature accept they were more brutal.
These ppl HAD SLAVEs!
The roman generals got rich, on captive ppl they didnt kill. Thats Sick.. But in their time, they had their "justifications" and "beliefs"
I consider this fact that they had slaves as animalistic in the sense that they didnt know better but at the same time, I'm sure there were ppl who took empathy to the slaves, and realize they were human.. And the way humans were treated was wrong, but NOPE didnt stop the empires and what not..
So in form, they had their doubts, like we humans today have our doubts in the way we utilize "lifestock"
So for anyone of them who thought "what we do to men, making them slaves is likely wrong in nature" ((cicero and his natrual law)) they were not animalistic they were sick individuals who lived shameful lives.
But for those who used them, and literaly didnt question what they do, they are animalistic. I would think most everyone questioned personaly, but didnt listen to themselves.
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Wolfman
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posted October 23, 2003 01:22 AM |
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PH, don't you sound a little arrogant today.
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Dingo
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posted October 23, 2003 01:29 AM |
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When America falls, it won't be because of a War. It will be about the people. Not the American people but the other people. Those Illegal Immigrants from Mexico really mess up things here. They go around killing people, stealing cars and basically messing everything up. We need to act now!
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privatehudson
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posted October 23, 2003 01:47 AM |
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I happen to take the opinion that you (or perhaps whoever wrote that) are incorrect in some major ways, and overall the comments have not been sufficiently thought out, especially in relation to the military. I also don't think things and people in America (or the world for that matter) are any worse now than in revolutionary times. That doesn't equate to me with arrogance, it's called an opinion.
Acting like it's a sign of lack of will in your country simply because you don't hang out flags and join the army, now that I consider arrogant and more than a little dangerous.
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Wolfman
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posted October 23, 2003 02:30 AM |
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You are arrogant in your comparison of Rome and Britain.
Are you saying the US was "more than a little dangerous" in the 40's-50's? I didn't say that you have to wave flags and join the army to be patriotic.
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Celfious
Promising
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From earth
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posted October 23, 2003 02:45 AM |
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You have the left, and right in most situations.
The left side, and right side..
When do ppl start realizing this?
You wont disprove PHs side by being arrogant in your ideas.. (arrogant means "know it all, in your face" right??
PH i read and i dont know what wolfmans talking about, accept he feels like you bashed his idea in some way, I think pride is a contributing factor. Dont worry I'm prideful at times too
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Wolfman
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posted October 23, 2003 02:47 AM |
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And he won't disprove me by being arrogant himself. An endless cycle...
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bort
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posted October 23, 2003 02:53 AM |
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1) “Hard work and virtue were replaced with greed and corruption.”
True, true, we need to get back to a time without greed and corruption when the Rockefellers and the Carnegies ruled the country. Or go further back to when people worked hard to virtuously buy their slaves. What makes you think that greed and corruption are new phenomena?
2) “Very high taxes led to social unrest.”
The US has one of the lowest tax rates (if not the lowest) in the developed world. Before you complain about taxes, ask yourself how many police officers your share of the taxes can pay for? How many miles of highway? How many billion dollar bombers.
3) “People within the empire become too self-centered”
Self-centrality is also not a new concept. People are selfish bastards. I know I am.
4) “Weakened military made up mostly of mercenaries.”
Well, pay more taxes and we can hire more soldiers. And buy more bombs.
5)“Loss of public support”
Armed forces recruitment went up too, but now “patriotism” is dwindling in this country.
I was going to be a smart-ass and carefully put "patriotism" in the little quotes, but I see you already did. Then you agree that waving a flag doesn't proove a damn thing about how you feel about your country.
How about this for a reason why the Roman Empire fell? It was just too damn big to be ruled by people from one city. When the occupied population and land area is >> the occupying population, the occupation can only last so long. That doesn't really apply to the US yet, does it, now?
Hudson --
Nobody beats the Mongols when it comes to empire building. Not the Romans, not the British, nobody.
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barb
Hired Hero
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posted October 23, 2003 02:54 AM |
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roman amercian shouldnt it be amercian and italy?
thoes are contries not states
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privatehudson
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posted October 23, 2003 03:41 AM |
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Bort: If you look, I made no claim that ours was the biggest or best, simply that the British empire was larger and lasted similar legnth of time to the roman one. I don't agree that the Mongols beat us for empire building though. Empire building is about more than just grabbing land to me...
Wolf
Quote:
But just in the past two years the flags were coming down in the neighborhood, one by one. They still went out on special occasions like federal holidays but few even do that. American flag sales soared in the months after September eleventh, and the Boy Scouts and other organizations were bombarded with old tattered flags to be retired with dignity. Armed forces recruitment went up too, but now “patriotism” is dwindling in this country.
That suggests strongly that you DO link patriotism to flag displaying and joining the military. Specifically it's placing of "patriotism is dwindling" next to the suggestion that armed forces are loosing recruitment shows this.
Quote:
You are arrogant in your comparison of Rome and Britain.
I was stating a fact. I don't consider you saying america has the largest economy arrogant, it's a fact. Why don't you try debating said facts I raised rather than complaining about the way they are raised hmmm? I don't claim to know all, I was firstly stating that the british empire was larger (which you might like to note it was) and secondly disagreeing with your argument and saying why.
Take an example from bort and try to discuss the topic and people's comments on it, not the people themselves 
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Khaelo
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posted October 23, 2003 04:24 AM |
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True, true, we need to get back to a time without greed and corruption when the Rockefellers and the Carnegies ruled the country. Or go further back to when people worked hard to virtuously buy their slaves. What makes you think that greed and corruption are new phenomena?
Oh, but it was so very Roman to complain about the new. They were constantly berating their own times and longing for a return to Tradition and the way things used to be...even when "used to be" was a time of civil war.
So, in bemoaning the current state of the nation and holding up predecessors as models of hard work and honesty (despite all evidence to the contrary), Wolfman is actually following a long and laudable(?) Roman tradition! 
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Saruman
Famous Hero
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posted October 23, 2003 03:07 PM |
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I don't believe that Rome ever truly fell. What it did was change continents.
Pacus Roma has been replaced by Pacus Americana, meening that America is the Rome of our day.
Many roman traditions and attitudes are still common in our society. Ever heard of the coliseum? Well, spectator sports continue to uphold that kind of ideal.
If we don't do something soon to change our society, we will be defeated as the Romans were.
Fortunetly for me, Canada will once again be one of the Great Bystanders. ( )
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Lord_Woock
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posted October 23, 2003 04:39 PM |
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Quote:
Pacus Roma
Wasn't it called Pax Romana?
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Wolfman
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posted October 29, 2003 02:31 AM |
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Yes, it was Pax Romana.
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Peacemaker
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posted November 07, 2003 10:18 PM |
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LOL!!! Wolfman, my young friend, how did all this slip by me!! I applaud your Dennis-Miller rant (though might not agree with all of it)
-- and PH -- Whoa! The both of you were in rare form there at the start --
Too bad you both digressed away from the original idea!!!!
Saruman, You posted my thoughts already, so I will merely second that post in repeating a phrase that I, as a member of the vanquished, have repeated thousands of times to those around me.
The Roman Empire is alive and well, and we are living in it. It has merely migrated to the northwest (into Great Britain) then across the ocean (to the U.S.).
Fact is that any Empire is doomed to eventually shrink back down to size. Just look at the trail of empires throughout history. They are by their very land- and resource-grabbing nubbies nature corrupt, aggressive, oversized, and ultimately, doomed to die away because of their fouled juggernaught roots, shriveling to a normal sized nation that's no longer too big for its britches. Empires tend to try and assimilate far too many resistive populations, and usually end up with a dwindling nationalism because of the self-destructive nature of colonialization to the Empire....
In fact, it sounded to me at first like Wolfie and PH were saying basically the same thing... Kudos to you both.
Saruman, what can I say, except that I think I need a new gown, my sweet...
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Wolfman
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posted November 08, 2003 01:14 AM |
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'Bout time you said something, Peacemaker! Lol Yes, we are Rome and it is scary to think that my wonderful country is beginning to collapse around me. I guess I just have to stick my head out into politics and try to prop it back up. What a task! Gotta start somewhere though...
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