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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted April 11, 2008 05:56 PM |
- penalty applied by pandora on 11 Apr 2008. |
Edited by Wolfman at 17:57, 11 Apr 2008.
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Wow, we haven't had this much bs about a penalty on the Other Side for a long time...
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A penalty was applied to Binabik for the follwing post in the "Muslims are not terrorists" thread on page 11 in the OSM forum.
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ALL of the Americans were innocent. Japan attacked the US, so every single American life lost was Japans fault. If dropping the bomb killed 100,000 Japanese and saved one American life, then it was worth it.
Any opinions?
While reading through this, it just amazes me how many people ignore history and substitute their own facts. All knowledge of the feelings of the time are lost and ignored. Read a book sometime about WWII Japan, scary stuff.
The Iraq analogies are completely ridiculous, totally different situation.
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Did the 100 000 people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki bomb pearl harbour? Were they involved in that by any way? NO. There goes your justification of bombing innocent civilians.
It can be argued that they did have involvement. This is an old debate, I believe from the “Attack Iraq” thread. Nagasaki was a naval base/drydock area. Civilians worked there building weapons and equipment to kill Americans, looks like they had a direct impact on the war, and were fair game.
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If someone molested my daughter or something to that effect, at that very moment their life is now mine and I no longer look at them as a human, only as an enemy. I will kill them without thinking twice and feel no remorse
How very true! But the case we are talking about is: 2 french (nation was chosen randomly!) guys molest your daughter. Now u drop a bomb on Paris. Is that ok? "If this bomb on Paris saved 1 baby from being molested by a french, this bomb was ok!" Is this statement justified?
Oh wonderful, now we’ve simplified an entire war down to two French guys molesting your daughter…how low (and out of context) can we go?
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Penalty was obviously not given coz of personal insult, but for a racistic statement.
That was a racist statement? Please, give me a penalty too, since I think my country is better than all other countries. If we are enforcing penalties on thoughts and beliefs I think a lot more people deserve to get penalties and banned from the forums maybe.
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The japanese civilists were innocent too.
We already had a similar discussion....You can not blame a whole nation for the fault of their leaders / government.
Wow, obviously someone needs to do a little research on how the mindset of Japan was at that time in history. It wasn’t the government that was at war with the US, it was the whole country. All jobs were to support the war effort in some way. You can say that warfare today is more between governments, but back then it wasn’t that simple. I think you should get a penalty for that actually, it offends me.
On a side note, reading through all this foolish garbage almost everyone is posting, I can’t believe I completely agree with the Gootch…on anything really. 
“I see a bit of hypersensitivity going on here.”
I almost think Angelito needs to have his sword removed for trying to be a PC (that's politically correct) Nazi.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 11, 2008 06:13 PM |
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You really should watch out how far u go here Wolfman. If u want, I can go that way aswell.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted April 11, 2008 08:21 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 20:22, 11 Apr 2008.
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@Binabik
If you'd have taken the time to read the argument your discussion started to the end you'd prehaps have seen this in the Muslims are not terrorist thread:
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Is it? The reason for saying "If dropping the bomb killed 100,000 Japanese and saved one American life, then it was worth it." was not that they were Japanese. The reason was that Japan was the agressor; it has nothing to do with race.
Ok racist is the wrong word as he is being discreminating against the population of the agressor. Don't know how you call that. The thing is that it doesn't freakin matter if we are talking about japanese,chinese,russians,indians,germans,jews,muslims,americans, WHATEVER the thing is that he says:
The lifes of 100 000 humans (no matter the race)are worth saving one American (if they belong to the nation that attacked pearl harbour).
He'd said the same thing about french people if they'd been the one attacking pearl harbour for heavens sake! Why are we discussing this? The fact that what he is saying is extremly racist (or humanist whatever you want to call it) is indisputable.
First quote is from Ecoris the other is my response. So I think that what you did want to say has already been understood and your penalty is in my opinion justified. I'd had to get one because if it wouldn't have gotten one the CoC would have been nothing than a major joke (considering the point about no agrevation /racism). As explained in my quote above "Racism" doesn't need to be about race in this case but about any "lifeform" thus life itself.
@VF
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* MIN: It is whether or not the comment was racist and nothing more. By definition of racism it was not.
Did the quote above make you see how you can argue that Binabik should get a -QP? Feel free to still have your opinion (thus I wasn't claiming that the post should make you understand...) but can you now follow me train of thought?
Please people do not forget what Minion said:
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It is a whole different matter whether the bomb saved lives on both sides or not, or if that the casualties would have risen above those who had been killed in the bombs. It is totally different to say that to save 1 life of certain nationality you can bomb 100.000 people of another. They are not less human there, no matter how you want your revenge.
@Wolfman
<<Metaphor of the two french guys>>
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Oh wonderful, now we’ve simplified an entire war down to two French guys molesting your daughter…how low (and out of context) can we go?
Either you are very ignorant or you just want to pick on the person making the comparision. It was ment to add a new angle to the discussion, that not everybody saw yet. Many people were thinking in "Japan vs. America" terms considering Binabiks statement but it wasn't. Binabiks statement is so bad because its in terms of "Value of human life of people x >>>>>> Value of human life of people y". It was for the purpose of enlightning the people taking part in the discussion and belive it or not it was effective. So your comment is absolutely childish (incase it wasn't made out of complete ignorance in which case it of course is excused as one wouldn't know any better)
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Nagasaki was a naval base/drydock area. Civilians worked there building weapons and equipment to kill Americans, looks like they had a direct impact on the war, and were fair game.
You realize that you are not talking about the nukes right? You are talking about the people eradicated in Nagaski. Eliminating them "had a direct impact on the war" are you being serious? If you already are the one claiming people should read about Japan in WW2 you prehaps should inform yourself on the situation of Japan at the time of the nukes. You will come to find that what you claim to be an fair target of war didn't play any even remotly significant role anymore.
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On a side note, reading through all this foolish garbage almost everyone is posting
Sorry but you are in no position that anyone is posting garbage. The one posting foolish garbage is you. Everyone in here sofar has added something constructive or has presented his opinion is the proper way. I will not boarder to point out to you how you haven't.
Very interesting how senior members seem to get away with stuff...
Coc: No direct/personal insults ---> calling anyone a political correct Nazi is... ehm... still within the boarders of the possible? I must say I'm quite astounded...
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 11, 2008 08:51 PM |
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Coc: No direct/personal insults ---> calling anyone a political correct Nazi is... ehm... still within the boarders of the possible? I must say I'm quite astounded...
Of course it is not. I'm just thinking about how long I will silence him...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted April 11, 2008 09:03 PM |
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Heehe right... no seriously just to clarify I wasn't asking for a punishment I was just expressing my honest disbelief.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted April 11, 2008 09:29 PM |
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Edited by Wolfman at 21:31, 11 Apr 2008.
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Coc: No direct/personal insults ---> calling anyone a political correct Nazi is... ehm... still within the boarders of the possible? I must say I'm quite astounded...
Of course it is not. I'm just thinking about how long I will silence him...
Coc: No direct/personal insults
As I used the words, "almost", meaning I wasn't to that point yet, and "trying" meaning he isn't a politically correct Nazi. I clearly avoided any breach in the CoC.
The Gootch has been insulting people in this fashion for years and very few if any penalties were ever applied that I ever saw. I'm just pointing out a Mod abusing his power for political reasons. If this board was based in the U.S., it would by breaching the first amendment be stifling his right to say how he feels. But it isn't important I guess.
I'm not even sure what this argument is about anymore. The dropping of the Atomic bomb, which was justified in my opinion because it saved countless lives, on both sides, or whether a penalty should be applied to Binabik, and now myself I guess.
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Either you are very ignorant or you just want to pick on the person making the comparision. It was ment to add a new angle to the discussion, that not everybody saw yet. Many people were thinking in "Japan vs. America" terms considering Binabiks statement but it wasn't. Binabiks statement is so bad because its in terms of "Value of human life of people x >>>>>> Value of human life of people y". It was for the purpose of enlightning the people taking part in the discussion and belive it or not it was effective. So your comment is absolutely childish (incase it wasn't made out of complete ignorance in which case it of course is excused as one wouldn't know any better)
I'm not ignorant nor was I picking on the person making the comparison, I was simply expressing frustration at such a horrible comparison was even made. It isn't even comparable, plus if I entertain this analogy...my daughter's life would definitely come before her molesters and I would want them to get the death penalty. Uh oh...I didn't try to bring another hot button topic into this already confusing debate.
I like how I am excluded from taking part in the discussion because I was not "enlightened" by this comparison.
Oh well, interesting to see where this all goes. Good thing I can acknowledge that there are other beliefs out there and am not reduced to making threats to stifle debate. I believe in free speech.
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Anakrom
Known Hero
(Scroll) Out of the blue
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posted April 11, 2008 09:37 PM |
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Sorry for offtopic, but after reading this topic, one question came to my mind - Why are for Gods sake people on this forum (forum for community of people playing turn-base strategy) constantly arguing about such things? Are Muslims terrorists, Independance of Kosovo, Attack Iraq etc. - all these controversal topic are forcing people to get get emotional and lose temper, breaking CoC, getting -QP and creates enemies in "own community". There are forums about such topic elsewhere, where are people you are not familiar with and most of them are mature, because kids are usually not attending to such pages. But this is forum of game, which is played mostly by children or teenagers. I get why is half of the forum absolute spam - it is mostly fun, and although it has zero informational value, it is interesting way how to kill time and start discussion with mates - sort of getting people together. But these "Political" topics are working as absolute opposite - are only creating argues and fuss. Isn´t there possibility of delete such topics and block any new? I guess that will be quoted in second, with words like "Democracy, I can post what I want" - you are right, but what for? And why here, on forum of peaceful game created for fun? Seriously, I don´t think that any of us can judge any of that topics - we weren´t A-bombing anyone, most of posters never been in Kosovo and Iraq and such. We just have opinion and we CAN´T find true, because its moral question, and as such, it hasn´t simple answer. You CAN´T solve such a problem by posting on forum (moreover, on game forum), you just can cause some other by getting emotional, forcing moderator to give you -QP, and starting new crusade. Can´t we have on this forum just some relax-time, tactics-chatting, mods and spam? If you want to talk about some serious international problem, try to find some anonymous forum, and not making otherwisely friendly persons overreact. I know that noone is forcing me to read such topics, but they are sometimes creating unpleasant atmosphere even out of topic. Thank you for attention
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Result matters
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Wolfman
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Insomniac
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posted April 11, 2008 09:50 PM |
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The Other Side of the Monitor was created to keep such topics out the the Tavern. And it has worked for the most part. However, some people that post on the Other Side, don't post in the other forums and some (myself included) don't even play Heroes anymore. Peacemaker last I checked had never played it and only found HC by googling something and she found a debate here between Private Hudson and I.
You are right though, all I can think of is, you don't have to read it. The Other Side is the one refuge for things like this. The rest of the forums is devoted to Heroes.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 11, 2008 10:15 PM |
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...I'm just pointing out a Mod abusing his power for political reasons...
Only because YOU (and a handfull of other american citizens) have a different point of view refering to a statement of another american citizen than someone who is NON american, you call it "abuse" and for "political reasons"? Come on....I bet you can do better than this. This was a poor try.
Me giving a penalty out of political reasons....this really made me laugh
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted April 11, 2008 10:19 PM |
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Coc: No direct/personal insults
Oh what so indirect is fine? Please...
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As I used the words, "almost", meaning I wasn't to that point yet, and "trying" meaning he isn't a politically correct Nazi. I clearly avoided any breach in the CoC.
...In other words your aim was to insult Angelito without breaking the CoC in an to obvious way... That is very... ehm... mature?
What is that talk about "almost" blablabla "trying" blablabla and insult is an insult in this case. "You're almost an snow" = "You are an snow" since you yourself said that you only inserted those word to avoid the OBVIOUS breach of the CoC. That's very grown up of you .
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I'm not even sure what this argument is about anymore.
It's not about the nukes and not about you getting a QP it's about the reason behind the penalty of Binabik.
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I'm not ignorant nor was I picking on the person making the comparison, I was simply expressing frustration at such a horrible comparison was even made. It isn't even comparable,
a) It's not horrible
b) Just because you can't see how the things are related it doesn't mean that other can't. Thus you're claim "It isn't even comparable" is entirely subjective. And if you'd give the subject 10seconds of thought and be able to draw the parallels I'm sure you'll see how they are indeed related.
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I like how I am excluded from taking part in the discussion because I was not "enlightened" by this comparison.
If you'd have read my post you'd seen that not understanding the comparision doesn't exclude you from the discussion, it was only ment to show another angle on the subject. It's not necessary to understand every point of view in order to take part in a discussion (eventhough it's advisable).
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Good thing I can acknowledge that there are other beliefs out there and (I) am not reduced to making threats to stifle debate. I believe in free speech.
That's great. Because we all don't...(irony~)
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted April 11, 2008 10:21 PM |
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Oh wonderful, now we’ve simplified an entire war down to two French guys molesting your daughter…how low (and out of context) can we go?
Oh wonderful another oldie but goody putting in his two pennies. Well wolfie you don't have to be enlighten by anything that I wrote, last I looked I don't remember sending you a personal invitation to even read it.
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On a side note, reading through all this foolish garbage almost everyone is posting, I can’t believe I completely agree with the Gootch…on anything really.
Well if this conversation is garbage maybe it has passed over your head and if that is the case you should stick to forums you can understand sweetie.
This is so simple, read the definition of racism and then read his statement, no -QP warranted.
As far as why we discuss these topics when there are little kids running around on here, because WE CAN. That is why Otherside Etc have been setup.Someone give me a ball bat, please...
*******States is winnie overbearing screechy voice***** Gootch never gets -QP's and we always do. *Stomps foot and walks off to get a freaken tissue box*
Are you ******* serious? Give me a break already! His **** is funny and enlightening, the fact you people can't take a joke just kills me. Nine times out of ten he knows what the hell he is talking about as well, so get the hell over it already. Bunch of damn babies. I feel like we should open up a Heroes daycare center for Christ sake.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted April 11, 2008 10:43 PM |
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Penalty applied to Wolfman for this comment.
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I almost think Angelito needs to have his sword removed for trying to be a PC (that's politically correct) Nazi.
No matter how cleverly you think you disguised this insult, you made the comment fully intending it to be a direct insult. Even in all your sugar coating, you didn't even attempt to cover the fact that you still called him a Nazi.
If all you've to do here is add the the "garbage" you find so distasteful, perhaps you need to refrain from commenting further.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 12, 2008 01:18 AM |
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Several things to address here:
1. Chill Out.
2. This is the Other Side Feedback thread. If we want to discuss whether bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a good idea, it should probably be done in a different thread. There is some interesting debate in here, but it belongs elsewhere.
3. As regards to the penalties, I feel that Wolfman's penalty was justified, but Binabik's wasn't. Wolfman did, however, raise a good point, although he should have done it in a non-insultive manner. We shouldn't enforce political correctness. Yes, Binabik's statement was controversial and I disagree with it as much as anybody. But he didn't violate any part of the CoC. It had no insults, abuse, racism, or sexism. To those who said that it is racist, it is not. He never said anything like "Americans are better than the Japanese."
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Eccentric Opinion
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Gallow
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Avenger
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posted April 12, 2008 01:46 AM |
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Well just one thing,no matter how hard persons discuss,that wont bring back the life of those ppl who died in the war,so why to insist in a thing that has already happend many years ago and those poor ppl may in peace rest and nothing we can do to ressurect them but yes remember them.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted April 12, 2008 03:33 AM |
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Finally some excitement!
With a former mod too who is usually not liked in private.
Publically we just see Wolfman as a debater & thats about it.
I dont think reading books can classify 100% of WW2.
Japan allied with Germany, Eventually Germany would want more & more power. Power is what leaders want. They want more.
Japan is a one act country at that time.
Everyone basically thought, loved & hated the same.
They would give thier life easily for a cause.
Men women & children too.
It's the way they were taught.
No one is innocent.
Everyone has faults.
Japan publically threatened us more then once at that time.
Even after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, Japan kept threatening us.The bombing was the last straw.
It's just an opinion with Bibaniks reply.
The way the Japanese mind was in a religious & a leadership sence, we had to do what we had to do.
It had to be done.
It was a typical American reply but there was alot of determination from the Japanese at that time.They would never stop & they would give thier lives to thwart thier enemies.We were just one of them.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted April 12, 2008 05:27 AM |
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Wow, obviously someone needs to do a little research on how the mindset of Japan was at that time in history. It wasn’t the government that was at war with the US, it was the whole country. All jobs were to support the war effort in some way. You can say that warfare today is more between governments, but back then it wasn’t that simple. I think you should get a penalty for that actually, it offends me.
Really? All jobs were to support the war? You make it sound as if every civilian, elderly man, woman and child spent their days and nights building bombs to drop on the Americans.
You can't seriously be claiming that the entire Hiroshima and Nagasaki population were not civilians.
To even begin to claim that the entire country of Japan was at war with the US is just ridiculous...
The debate has become an elaborate case of "but he started it!".
"Let me say only this much to the moral issue involved: Suppose Germany had developed two bombs before we had any bombs. And suppose Germany had dropped one bomb, say, on Rochester and the other on Buffalo, and then having run out of bombs she would have lost the war. Can anyone doubt that we would then have defined the dropping of atomic bombs on cities as a war crime, and that we would have sentenced the Germans who were guilty of this crime to death at Nuremberg and hanged them?"
-Leo Szilard, who spurred the research along with Albert Einstein.
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John says to live above hell.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted April 12, 2008 08:29 AM |
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Japan at that time was no better then Germany.
They were already at war with CHina around 1936 or 1937.
There were Japanese soldiers with the German campaigns as well.
This is a global war. Thats why it's called World War.
Japan is not the size of most countries.
Basically it really dont matter if there were a few Japanese that was not part of the war.
They love thier people & thier religion.
They will grow to hate even more.They will grow to never knowing thier parents.They will grow for revenge & Kamikaze is not even a question for them.
It had to be done.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted April 12, 2008 09:08 AM |
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Well, though it is a bit too late, I guess it is expected by now I will put my 2 cents in (for whatever it is worth).
Here is the thing. I don't specifically think it was a racist comment, nor a violation of the CoC. Now I can't give an example of how the sentance would have been racist without getting a penalty myself, what I can say is this. He did not call the Japanese certain names. Nor did he insult their culture or beliefs. While his statement was unpopular, if we went on just unpopular I would have about 50 -qps, lets try to put it in context.
The dropping of the bombs I would be the first to say that it was an atrocity. However, there is good indication that it did stop a LOT more bloodshed. While many innocents did die, and that is a horrible thing, think of how many innocents it might have saved. So while his statement might not be politically correct, I don't think it violated the CoC. We are all a bit to PC sometimes.
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Message received.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted April 12, 2008 09:10 AM |
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This is not the place to debate if the bomb should have been dropped or not. Some people think it should have, some think it shouldn't have, simple as that. I've been listening to the same debate for 30-40 years and it's the same old stuff that keeps getting repeated.
What I can't figure out is why people make such a big deal about what I said. There's nothing racist or nationalistic about it. If people think so, then either they don't know what those words mean, or they are making the worst kind of debate by playing games with semantics and changing the meaning of words to bolster an otherwise weak argument.
If the countries/peoples were Argentina and Tunisia I would have said exactly the same thing. It's a perfectly logical and rational conclusion to come to. And yes, I understand the two main arguments on the other side of the issue. They are also logical and rational. I just don’t agree with them.
So what's the big deal?
I only scanned a portion of the replies in that thread and quit. It was the same old stuff that has plagued HC for a long time now. People jumping to conclusions. Or people posting total BS with no care whatsoever it it's true or not. Or people who are so hyper-sensitive that they shouldn't even be reading controversial threads in the Other Side. Why should I bother taking the time to debate with people who just make stuff up as they go along (or more likely repeat stuff others made up)?
That's why I rarely post in the Other Side any more. Heroes Community has deteriorated so badly that I look at all the garbage on here and just shake my head.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted April 12, 2008 09:19 AM |
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Of course the bomb needed to be dropped.
If we did not drop them, it would just lead to more Khaos.
We gave them terms & they simply refused & with threats.
Threats the US does not take lightly.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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