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Azagal
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Smooth Snake
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posted April 12, 2008 09:26 AM |
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<<Accusation that Binabiks statement is racist>>
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Is it? The reason for saying "If dropping the bomb killed 100,000 Japanese and saved one American life, then it was worth it." was not that they were Japanese. The reason was that Japan was the agressor; it has nothing to do with race.
Ok racist is the wrong word as he is being discreminating against the population of the agressor. Don't know how you call that. The thing is that it doesn't freakin matter if we are talking about japanese,chinese,russians,indians,germans,jews,muslims,americans, WHATEVER the thing is that he says:
The lifes of 100 000 humans (no matter the race)are worth saving one American (if they belong to the nation that attacked pearl harbour).
He'd said the same thing about french people if they'd been the one attacking pearl harbour for heavens sake! Why are we discussing this? The fact that what he is saying is extremly racist (or humanist whatever you want to call it) is indisputable.
First quote is from Ecoris the other is my response. So I think that what you did want to say has already been understood and your penalty is in my opinion justified. I'd had to get one because if it wouldn't have gotten one the CoC would have been nothing than a major joke (considering the point about no agrevation /racism). As explained in my quote above "Racism" doesn't need to be about race in this case but about any "lifeform" thus life itself.
Did you read that paragraph? If you did I would be happy if you'd point out how you didn't value life of 100 000 people beloning to an agressor nation over 1 life of a person belonging to the victim nation. That is the clear breach of the CoC. The -QP is not for your controversial opinion it's for that! So please point out how your statement isn't being grosly offensive as you are making no classifications whatsoever. As long as you belong to the people of the aggressor nation (no matter your job,sex,age, whatsoever) you are instantly worth less than a person of the victim nation. How is that not what you said and how is that not a breach of the CoC?
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Binabik
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posted April 12, 2008 09:35 AM |
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Azagal, you are playing games with semantics. What I said is not racist, period. I won't say anything more on this subject of racism. Think what you want, I don't care.
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Azagal
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Smooth Snake
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posted April 12, 2008 10:09 AM |
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What I said is not racist, period.
Seems you didn't understand my post...or didn't want to see the point. I too said that your post wasn't racist. Didn't I explicitly say that you got it for valueing life of person x over lives of people y? I don't see how you just can't understand that that is penalty worthy.
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So please point out how your statement isn't being grosly offensive as you are making no classifications whatsoever. As long as you belong to the people of the aggressor nation (no matter your job,sex,age, whatsoever) you are instantly worth less than a person of the victim nation. How is that not what you said and how is that not a breach of the CoC?
That's the question your penalty is about.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Binabik
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Legendary Hero
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posted April 12, 2008 10:35 AM |
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Quote:
As long as you belong to the people of the aggressor nation you are instantly worth less than a person of the victim nation
I don't know who's quote this is but I never said that. It's another case of people putting words into my mouth that I never said. All lives have the same value.
What I said was that one side or the other had to pay the price to end the war. And the aggressor nation should be the one to bear that burden. The nations who were the victims and had already lost millions of lives should not have to continue paying the price. They should not have to pay with one more life....NONE.
It's way past my bedtime and I'm past the point of being coherent, so I'm done for the night.
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Aculias
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Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted April 12, 2008 07:25 PM |
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It's just one of the many typical foreign replies from another nation Bibanik.
Nothing you can do about it but to deal with it & move on.
This is just one of the examples why there is war & mindsets like how Japans were.
Of course this is only the net, but the mindset is reals.
Lets face it, we are hated by many foreign citicins.
Sometimes I cant blame them.
Look at how many wars we have started. Plus we never know how to mind our own business.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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angelito
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proud father of a princess
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posted April 12, 2008 07:52 PM |
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Aculias....again....don't put in things which are not present. This had nothing to do with america vs japan. If binabik would have been from Congo republic and would have said this with nigerian folks involved instead of japanese, result would have been the same.
Why is it, americans tend to "Yeah...they just don't love us" if they get critized when doing something wrong?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Binabik
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Legendary Hero
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posted April 12, 2008 08:16 PM |
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Angelito, you should look in the mirror and see if you can figure out why what you just said is hypocrisy. Then look at this entire debate. Then look at this entire board. See if you can figure out why this entire board since it started is hypocrisy to the EXTREME. Then maybe you'll understand why some people in this debate feel the way they do.
I repeat. This board is hypocritical in the EXTREME.
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted April 12, 2008 08:43 PM |
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Lol. Compared to many Polish discussion forums, these are the most open minded I've ever seen.  Seriously, Binabik, if these forums are extreme hypocrisy, then I don't even know how to call those I know..
Btw, why do Americans keep calling non-American people foreigners? It sounds like you guys wanted to alienate from the rest of the world, or underline the fact that you think different than the rest of the world  And it seems especially weird on international forums. I mean, there are no foreigners and natives here..
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TnT_Addict
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Beautiful Liar
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posted April 12, 2008 08:55 PM |
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Aculias
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Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted April 12, 2008 09:04 PM |
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Thats what yall are called in America.
Different countires we call them foreign countires.
I never knew it was offensive 
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Dreaming of a Better World
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angelito
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posted April 12, 2008 09:14 PM |
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Quote:
Thats what yall are called in America.
Different countires we call them foreign countires.
I never knew it was offensive
That's the big difference. We call people from america "americans", and people from france "french"...not foreigners...
You on the other hand call every non american "foreigner"....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Doomforge
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posted April 12, 2008 09:17 PM |
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Not offensive (at least for me), just weird.
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Binabik
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posted April 12, 2008 09:20 PM |
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Gees, that what the freeking word means!!! Why make a big deal out if it? "Foreigner" to an American means a non-American. Foreigner to a German means a non-German.
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Doomforge
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posted April 12, 2008 10:03 PM |
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The deal is that those are not strictly American forums, and there are no "foreigners" here, man.. THAT is weird. You guys seem to forgot that You don't even have a country in your profile specified.. How am I supposed to know who a "foreigner" is to you?*
*hypothetical. I of course know you're from the States, but someone may get confused
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Aculias
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Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted April 12, 2008 10:36 PM |
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Yea so dont go getting into my stuff Angelo.
That last reply alone just tells me how much hatred is really in this world.
It cant be helped & it flowed from deep in the history of time.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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dimis
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Digitally signed by FoG
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posted April 12, 2008 11:22 PM |
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Edited by dimis at 23:40, 12 Apr 2008.
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"Humanitarian" / "Peacekeeping" actions
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But neither do you personally invade so many other countries.You didn't invade in Korea, you didn't invade in Vietnam, you didn't invade in Serbia, you didn't invade in Iraq(2 times) you didn't invade to Afghanistan you didn't invade to..etc.It wasn't your choice and i believe it of course you didn't want this wars, many of them your country started.
It is accepted in international circles that there are 3 legal reasons for attacking another nation. One is for self-defense. The second is for humanitarian reasons. And the third is with a United Nations Security Council Resolution.
So let's take another look at what HoMaM had to say.
Korea. Humanitarian.
Vietnam. Self-defense technically with the Gulf of Tonkin incident.
Serbia. Humanitarian.
Iraq (Desert Storm). Humanitarian AND a UNSCR
Afghanistan. Self-Defense. Paging Al-Qaeda!
Iraq #2. Uh, none of the above. Preemptive attack by all rights is illegal and those responsible should be held accountable. May the Bush administration be shipped to Nuremberg.
So, out of the six wars you mentioned HoMoaM, the U.S. started one. But you said many. I suppose I should pretend to be confused. But I'm not. Go eat an olive.
The problem with this logic is that an "observer" obliges by force what is the right thing to happen in the vicinity of another country. This is not humanitarian as well as overthrowing governments in latin america is again not humanitarian. How on earth I am supposed to tell the citizens of country X (where X is not my country) how to live? It's their choice. And yes, if I know it is better for some things to change, then this does not justify my "humanitarian" intervention, simply because the citizens are not necessarily mature enough to understand this. If they were, they would have behaved differently. A revolution by the people, and for the people, is much more constructive for a nation than a "humanitarian/peace-keeping" action forced by the powers of a foreign country. And this is why US is usually accused. Since it is the world's most powerful nation, the laws don't apply to this country. US can baptize an attack "humanitarian" and the others have to accept it, or to some extent ... may be face the "humanitarian" face of US in their nation's vicinity or at a diplomatic international level as well? In a nutshell, saying that I start a war, for the sake of "the greater good" ("humanitarian/peacekeeping") is NOT justified. Of course another reason for all those wars is the "army" industry ...
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The empty set
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Mytical
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted April 12, 2008 11:44 PM |
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I agree with Dimis up to a certain point. Sometimes people have lost the choice, and are just too 'beaten up' to stand up for themselves. Take some military regime. They usually overthrow the old government, and for a bit everything can be better. But if that regime suddenly gets power mad, what chance does the commoners have?
If they stage a rebellion, they face a foe that is better armed, better trained, and more experienced. It would be a blood bath. Sometimes people loose the choice, and then aid is needed from other sources.
I will be one of the first to admit america sticks it's nose where it doesn't belong way too often. If we hadn't however, things might have been much worse. Imagine an Axis controlled Eastern Hemisphere (and maybe eventually the world).
We have protected smaller nations from bullying larger nations. Now don't get me wrong, I am not flag waving. I know we have made some big mistakes.
Gah keep going way OT, we need to discuss this in another thread entirely. As for the foreiner comment, I have to let you all in on a little secret. Come on, come a little closer...
Not all of us think of everybody else as foreiners. Shocking huh? America has people from ALL nations. Yeah, suprising isn't it?
Now somebody once asked a question. If a building was burning would you save 5 strangers or 1 family member. It is all perspective. Though Bina may have exaggerated the numbers, stop and think a second. If you were in the same situation where x number of friends and family could be saved, and x*y strangers..which would you choose?
(X is a rather large number, and y say 2 or 3).
Not to mention it wouldn't only be American lives, but the war would have endangered other countries lives also. Not to mention the fact that despite the horrible attrocity it was, that even the Japanese would have probably have lost more lives.
I don't condone it, I don't like it, but what would have been the cost had it not happened? We will never know, and maybe just maybe we wouldn't want to.
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Message received.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 12, 2008 11:58 PM |
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I still think the mods need to justify the penalty. Angelito did not do this when the penalty was given nor when he started the subject in this thread. Later he called Binabik's statement "racistic", which it is not.
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted April 13, 2008 12:02 AM |
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Ok, it's called 'discriminatorism' or whatever.
penalty was not applied due to whether the bomb had to be dropped or not -- it wasn't applied for political reasons at all. It was applied (at least it's how I see it) due to the fact that Binabik implied that killing 100,000 japanese to save 1 american is worth it.
Sorry, but IMO, it does not matter whether they were the aggressors (especially because they were civilians). It's never "worth" it. This translates directly to: "Letting 1 american live is a lot more worth than letting 100,000 japanese live"
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Binabik
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posted April 13, 2008 12:02 AM |
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It's their choice.
Then it's also their choice to ask for, or even pay for the aid of the US?
You didn't think the US freed Kuwait for free did you? They got paid for it.....by multiple countries.
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