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| Thread: "Quality Posts": Should They Go? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted August 12, 2001 06:50 AM |
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Poll Question:
"Quality Posts": Should They Go?
The reasons why I want the red stars removed:
1) They're generally ignored by most people.
2) They're opinionated. I don't know about you, but I don't want somebody else trying to do my thinking for me.
3) They obscure actual quality. If somebody has 1 or 2 QPs, everybody who actually does look at the red stars will automatically treat their other posts as being good by association, even if they are actually wastes of processing time. At the same time, other people without quality points will be overlooked, even if they have a number of good posts that weren't counted by the moderators.
Are you with me!?
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El_Diablo
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
Lord of Terror
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posted August 12, 2001 08:52 AM |
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quality points are fine, if people want them they have to put alot of thought into their posts, and it gives members an idea of which members know their stuff
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*Welcome to Hell*
~~*El Diablo*~~
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted August 12, 2001 09:38 AM |
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Quality points (again)
Coldfyrius you got it all wrong I think. Funny how you claim to know how everyone else 'ignores' the star systems, yet you yourself have taken it upon your slim shoulders to rid the world of them, lol. If everyone ignores them (I know I don't), then why would you bother to ask them to vote about them?
They are not an indication of overall quality. They are just counters and these counters can be broken down in very simple terms for those of you who attended 3rd grade maths. Somebody who has 5 red stars and 500 posts therefore has 495 posts that were not in the top two percent. That simply means that 99% of their stuff is probably unremarkable.
And what would you care about the people who do actually pay attention to them anyway? If you think they're useless and have no bearing on a person's overall posts, then suggest an alternative, please. I don't like people who bomb on something, ask us all to vote and in return, offer no solution to their problem.
The red stars make people think a little before they go off flaming and spamming on people. Regardless of quality, at least they're a deterrent to turning Heroes Community into a primary school chalkboard...
*smile*
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted August 12, 2001 01:35 PM |
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LOL
I was going to point out that flaw in his reasoning, but you got there first Shae- if everyone ignores them in the first place, why would they place more weight on what someone with them says? I think it's mostly for the few people who post alot, but there are many moderators, so the chances of only one opinion coming out are slim. Of course the mixed opinions you might get then aren't much better perhaps, but at least it is more inclusive for an exclusive rating. lol
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted August 13, 2001 12:53 AM |
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I wasn't paying too much attention when I wrote that. What I meant to say is that most people igore them. My suggested alternative, now that you've asked for it:
#1: Replace post counts/quality posts with a word count. IT simply lists how many words of information have been posted by that player. That way, 500 words on strategies for the Tower town count 500 times as much as posting on the Word Association Game.
#2: Display the number of warinings a person has gotten from the moderators. This will work better than 1 or 0 stars, because it will allow a finer level of distinction, and because a person who doesn't see any stars at all may simply forget about the existence of red stars instead of realizing that the person in question has done some prety serious stuff.
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"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen
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UnkaHaakon
Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
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posted August 13, 2001 08:46 AM |
bonus applied. |
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Quote:
I wasn't paying too much attention when I wrote that. What I meant to say is that most people igore them. My suggested alternative, now that you've asked for it:
#1: Replace post counts/quality posts with a word count. IT simply lists how many words of information have been posted by that player. That way, 500 words on strategies for the Tower town count 500 times as much as posting on the Word Association Game.
#2: Display the number of warinings a person has gotten from the moderators. This will work better than 1 or 0 stars, because it will allow a finer level of distinction, and because a person who doesn't see any stars at all may simply forget about the existence of red stars instead of realizing that the person in question has done some prety serious stuff.
I've withheld comment on the whole "red stars" thing for a while, but maybe this is a good time to put in my two cents worth.
You seem to feel that quality points are some sort of plot to limit your thinking or some sort of infringement on your rights. (Why else call them a "tyranny"?)
So, if you were the list admin or a moderator, how would you choose to point out to people: "Hey, this is a good idea! This is the sort of stuff we had in mind seeing people post when we set this community up!" In my experience, every post I've seen get the bonus applied has been thought provoking (even if I disagree) and takes the discussion to a new place or raises the intellectual bar a bit. Quality posts generally involve new ideas, or a new way of looking at an old idea, instead of some of the long back and forths like ""Piquedram rulez!!"" No , he sucks!".
When I see someone I know has made one of these more thought provoking posts in the past has started a new thread, I'll check it out. Why? Because it'll probably get me thinking. Their opinions don't carry any more weight with me if I disagree, but I'm interested in what their latest idea is. Sure, the awarding of the point is subjective on the part of the mods, but 'artistic merit' is always a subjective judgement. And the number of a person's quality points, or post count doesn't influence what I think about what they've just posted.
Your alternative #1 would simply measure quantity of output. That's really no different than post counts. (As a personal semantic quibble, it's possible to write over 500 words with no real information in them. Read the Federal Register sometime). It unfairly penalizes new posters (some of which have put up some very good ideas), and does nothing to encourage NEW ideas.
As for number 2. the current system already does this. In one thread on the TOH forum, a poster was at -4 last I looked, and had lost one of his stars.
Finally, why should we care what Val, and the mods think is a good idea? Because they're the ones who put in the work to keep this board going. It's just common courtesy, like not smoking at somebody's house if they have a problem with it. If you think it's a "tyranny", try this on for size: It's not unknown for the moderators on some email lists to delete posts or ban people just for disagreeing with them. We have a pretty free rein here, with a few guidelines for behavior. And we don't have the massive, pointless flame wars I've seen in some of the unmoderated usenet groups I belong to.
And yeah, I've got quality points. Personally, I think some of my posts that didn't get points are better than the ones that did. But that's just subjective, again. But I'm glad that the people who've let me play in their yard think I'm a good guest.
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Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted August 13, 2001 12:29 PM |
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Now that I think more about this...
First I thought they maybe would be nice (not that I wanted them they are just given to me)but now that I have seen that some posts don't really deserve (Will I get punished because I say this aloud) quality point I think it's too much moderators opinion. I have seen posts that should have been awarded with quality point. Simple as that, now I said it. Maybe I should ask to be moderator but if you give in some threads quality point to certain person it really "proves" their point if another person in another side doesn't get one. Quality points should be awarded in my opinion to posts that aren't so attacking or filled with emotions (No offence anyone) but more of intelligent nature coming from objective viewpoint. Like moderators message to people of board something that needs to be said not only view of somebody without really reasoned text.
I think quality points should be awarded from posts that get us closer to being a community and ideas that are revolutionary. I think quality post should be think that one could never really disagree at least with most of the post. But this is of course my view and it's mods decision. This is the case we cannot change but somehow I feel that some posters just don't get them because they have done something "wrong" in the past or are saying things that mods don't like. This is pity. No offence to moderators they are doing great job otherwise but this current red star system just gives points from single posts and some messages are controversial when thinking should they get one quality point.
Tyranny isn't the word I'm looking for and I said before that I won't be come complaining about this system ever again. Now I'm here just to say that some of mods could take closer look when to give quality points. Or does this message I wrote now mean that I won't be getting any in the near future even if I happen to get some great post out (not saying I will be getting any out  .
If answer is yes this system should go.
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted August 13, 2001 02:28 PM |
bonus applied. |
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Now
You said that quality points should be awarded to posts that are 'objective'. I really find this to be a rather subjective thing for me, because I don't think that anyone involved in Heroes or even Heroes Community can ever have something to say about a certain thread that is truly objective. If you want to be like that, then I strongly suggest you go and post on a message board that has threads about the lifespan of a fireant.
I honestly love the emotion that I see on this board, it's real PEOPLE stuff. I don't want to see a bunch of intellectuals pretending to be objective. Objectivity to me says that you have no real involvement in what's being said, and if you have no real emotions or thoughts about something, then don't post. Because if your opinion doesn't lean even SLIGHTLY one way or the other, it will take the thread nowhere. True objectivity is the oppositite of revolution and I think that a quality point should always be awarded where someone is being thoughtful and seriously subjective. If they qualify their opinions well and qualify them carefully, and their post has injected new life into a thread or taken it in new directions then quality points need to be given out.
I've just recently had first hand experience of how these points are working. People who used to insult and diss each other are now questioning themselves more and thinking on a much deeper level. I've seen them go from young, to seriously respectable people all because their focus has changed and that change has arisen out of the red star system. The whole bar has been raised, Sha, I've seen it in you. I've seen the way you posted before you got a red star and how you posted after you got a red star. The difference may not be recognizable by you, but it sure is by me. People all over the place are getting red stars, they're getting some recognition for effort. And hell, you gotta be half crazy to disagree with me when I say that those quality posts didn't take some careful insight or thought provocation.
I've been coming to the board more often, nearly every day, just for a quick peek. The moderators have done a real swift turnaround on preventing the board sliding into the depths of the forgotten and I have to give them my thanks for making this place enjoyable once again.
Keep the stars or lose us posters. It's up to you.
*smile*
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted August 13, 2001 04:56 PM |
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Something...
You're wrong Shae. I didn't start posting better stuff or put more thought there after I got some quality points. I post now larger messages because I feel much more home this place than before. Also I haven't had really good connection with people speaking english for about six months before I came here. I was in swedish speaking west coast in Finland for about year and only really randomly visited internet or send email in english. So this "change" you see is only I feel more comfortable here than before. Maybe redstarsystem has some effect even into me (I don't doubt that at all) but it isn't main reason what kind of messages I post. I kinda take insult if you say that I post now "better" messages than before just to get quality points. In recent times I have seen some bad posting here and seen people misunderstood me and others. That is also one reason why I try to say more than before so people would understand me correctly.
I said that if moderators truly take some things too personally here and that's why don't give some quality points that is pretty bad thing. I think this is not the case but if it would be the system should go but otherwise not. Unkahaakon said that he has seen some of his messages get quality points when some other posts are better in his opinion. I feel kinda same way. It's still mods decision.
BTW does single mod give the point or does he ask this about from other mods? I think there should be more than one mod giving these points. So one mod could give sign to other moderators where is post that would in his opinion deserve quality point but it would be voted by mods first is quality point given or not. Is this the case already, I don't know but I think it would give more "fair" result.
Let's not take things too seriously especially concerning this redstarsystem but I don't want to see this community change into battlezone. I try to keep this community "alive" and also in "shape" in way or another. Let's keep redstarsystem more in side than being the main effort here. It doesn't however mean that it should be ignored. I at least watch what kind of quality people post but it's more about the posts than those stars really for me. I can't help a thing if some posters don't have stars they should have right now but I'm not complaining.
Shoot first, then let quality points come
(if they are coming)
____________
Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted August 13, 2001 05:33 PM |
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Quality points
Just a thought.....
Is it possible to lose quality points by being long, dreary and..... well.....boring?
____________
The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted August 13, 2001 08:39 PM |
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The use of the word "tyranny" was clearly a joke. I deliberatley did the whole thing in a melodramatic style to be funny. This can be seen if you look at the last 2 responses, in which I used the word "wackface" and then put up someithng that jokingly mocks people who put down "I don't know" in polls. I thought the contrast would be humorous. You've heard of humor, right?
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"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 13, 2001 09:20 PM |
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as this thread is, and many others, and many others replies were only made cause of the sake of having/not having counters/stars whatever.
All i can say is that STARS and other things will make HC "commercialized".
My YES to remove all posting count/stars crap is that the people who judge them are just FEW - and it's like that we are getting their opinion on us. It's like little GOD game - but this is COMMUNITY - not HEROES THEATHER FORUM CLASSIC CRITICS AWARDS FILM ASSOCIATION
so now - I think my post is QUALITY ONE (even if it's not i have the right to think it was - and if I was the moderator I'll put to such post a QUALITY POINT! - so all this quality thing is what VAL, AngelSplit, Vesuvius and the other moderators thing - Thunder? was the other one - lazy to go to th previous page to see).
I'm not against them - just saying my oppinion.
It will be wiser to put somethin' like POLL - instead of MODERATORS voting - let's put PEOPLE voting. Because at the end public is the one dictating which is good/which is not (and if the public wishes lets vote for this post as bad, or good or whatever).
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Kwisatz-Hade...
Hired Hero
For Paul maud'dib
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posted August 13, 2001 09:40 PM |
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my opinion
Well.... just let everybody think what he want but I think that when you got the points and snow everybody puts as much snow in his games and replies as he/she can
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You only have control of
something when you have the power to destroy it.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted August 13, 2001 10:20 PM |
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Just want to bring in a quick point
What if all the stars and counts were suddenly gone? No red stars, no yellow stars, no post counts, no quality points, no ranks, no rank prefixes, nothing. How would this change your view of this board? Would you be as interested in being here when there's no stats game at all?
All moderators give points upon their single decision. The general guide for them is to give a point to TOP 2% of posts, and to penalize insults and rule-breaching. We don't penalize boring or short posts so far.
And final question is: can moderators with their available time and intelligence devise a perfectly fair system of ranking people?
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Zud
Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
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posted August 13, 2001 11:08 PM |
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Quote:
What if all the stars and counts were suddenly gone? No red stars, no yellow stars, no post counts, no quality points, no ranks, no rank prefixes, nothing. How would this change your view of this board? Would you be as interested in being here when there's no stats game at all?
I would still be here, I enjoy other peoples views and strategies for heroes, I enjoy the "community" for what I think it to be:
A bunch of other people who enjoy heroes almost as much as I do. 
I have learned a lot from other peoples strategies and try to share my own, One of the more interesting things is to see how alike and unalike (at the same time lol) views of this great game are and what others think it should be.
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Winner or Whiner?
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted August 14, 2001 02:51 AM |
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I guess I'm in favor of the "quality" posts, but I wish that the posts that are deemed to be of high quality were actually flagged somehow. I, for one, have no idea which post gave me my quality point. It'd also be nice if each thread had a little number next to it saying how many quality posts were in it.
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Coldfyrius
Promising
Famous Hero
Vice-God for Marketing
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posted August 14, 2001 04:30 AM |
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Quote:
What if all the stars and counts were suddenly gone? No red stars, no yellow stars, no post counts, no quality points, no ranks, no rank prefixes, nothing. How would this change your view of this board? Would you be as interested in being here when there's no stats game at all?
I wouln't really mind much. I mean, it's nice to give heavy posters some recognition, but it's not someithng that would have much affect on me.
Quote:
Moderators give points upon their single decision. The general guide for them is to give a point to TOP 2% of posts, and to penalize insults and rule-breaching. We don't penalize boring or short posts so far.
Well, nice to know the process behind it.
Quote:
And final question is: can moderators with their available time and intelligence devise a perfectly fair system of ranking people?
I don't believe that there is such a thing as perfectly fair. I did come up with a simple, objective rule-of-thumb for ranking: word count. Total # of posted words, not counting quotes or signatures, would determine the number of yellow stars you hav. It's not perfect, but neither is the current system.
Just my little proposal.
____________
"All the punks are gonna scream, 'yippee!'/ 'Cuz it's the thing that only eats hippies."
-The Dead Milkmen
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted August 14, 2001 05:43 AM |
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Craig Hack...
I suddenly feel you have something against me. I don't know what is it but don't please say I'm boring because I never really read your messages. You don't say thing that I'm interested about. I thing I have made my point always I post. Maybe I english is so bad that you don't understand or there is something wrong with you but I won't start saying everything twice to get it through you. And I think it wouldn't make difference to you in any case.
for Valeriy...
About this whole subject I think it's gone just little too OLD. Maybe I should have said nothing about this subject. I want to say that I would notice if those ranks and stuff would be gone but I wouldn't care. I care how things go around this board and all the time try to understand people and their opinions. It has nothing to do with this quality point system. I'm not sure should I say I care because either I'm just one who tries to get more quality points or I'm suddenly Jerry Springer.
I don't want to say thing about this whole subject anymore you others can think this through and I believe you can make the decision without my opinion.
____________
Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Kwisatz-Hade...
Hired Hero
For Paul maud'dib
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posted August 14, 2001 09:39 AM |
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But when the points are gone, you can still speak about stuff you know, like when someone doesn't know a good strategy or someone knows in wich particular order you could build best.
____________
You only have control of
something when you have the power to destroy it.
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted August 14, 2001 07:21 PM |
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Quote:
I suddenly feel you have something against me. I don't know what is it but don't please say I'm boring because I never really read your messages. You don't say thing that I'm interested about. I thing I have made my point always I post. Maybe I english is so bad that you don't understand or there is something wrong with you but I won't start saying everything twice to get it through you. And I think it wouldn't make difference to you in any case.
Sha_men. You have asked for a truce and I have agreed but lets get a few things straight before the end.
YOU READ ALL MY MESSAGES!
And, yes, there is something wrong with me. Incoherant rambling irritates me.
Please dont say it twice, once is more that enough!
Now, peace.
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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