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| Thread: A disturbing trend... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT» |
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2005 02:56 AM |
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A disturbing trend...
Hi all, I've recently returned to heroes after about an 18 month break and really enjoying it again. Something I have noticed though since I have been gone is the sheer number of people choosing to play Jebus Cross template and picking Castle. Then totally contradicting the template by adding 1000 rules (crazy things like 2 cons and 2 hives each no level 6 or 7 dwellings etc etc). I plyed jebus the other day against bossbodiddly and my area consisted of 3 drag caves, 3 manti caves, 3 mazes, 3 harpy lair etc etc. I was stunned to find that when I broke into the middle, it was Dungeon aligned! The first monster I hit in the area was 70 naga queens guarding a box (zero problem for that sort of area) and it gave up 5 red drags! A quick tp back upgrade them (of course I had every tome due to this ridiculous template) and suddenly the no level 7 dwelling rule was nullified...I had 12 blacks.
I believe that no amount of rule tweaking can nullify the balance issues of this template. Angels can easily be gained week one by the castle choosers then very quickly upgraded. A quick cons or 2 and you have 10 archies to easily counter the area guard. What happened to other much tougher templates? Why do very few players play these? Try some of these which make for a much more rewarding experience (balance, panic, extreme...any less "rich" template) and then it wont be necessary to make ridiculous rules for crazy templates.
And then....maybe just about every single tribe in WW wont consist of castle either :/
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Myctteakyshd
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted March 21, 2005 06:55 AM |
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totally agreed there rychenroller. The only time I tried jeebus cross was in a 3 player FFA. I noticed that by beggining of week 2 I could have 9 behemoths. 9!!! The game didn't work out in the end because of some router problems I had, but thank god for that. i'm never touching that template again. It's by far the worst I've seen so far.
I also wanted to ask the guys here if there are any open type random templates, in the spirit of Battle for Honor or Boomerang, where meeting late week one or week 2 is possible. Maps templates like cube, balance and even skirmish are nice to play, but I'd rather play maps where you start rumbling with your opponent earlier on  .
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2005 07:35 AM |
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Gday zsa thx for the reply...there are quite a few open style templates, of the made ones, Roadrunner springs to mind, there are no area guards at all, you can literally walk into your opponents area, though it is quite possible to be blocked by random treasures. A few of the original templates result in early meets, but they arent structured as well, the best one would be ring template.
Btw I dont mind closed templates at all, though I must prefer if you have to work for your treasure. The guard level on jebus is dcreased so you could find your giant dwelling blocked by horde of skel warriors which is nuts. In a template like extreme, you are provided with the basic essentials to build and zones get prgressively harder as you pass area guards. It isnt just handed to you on a platter.
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Myctteakyshd
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 21, 2005 08:34 AM |
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Pfeh....
I would offer one of my maps but nobody really cares about balanced gameplay. They all want Black Dragons, Titans, and ArchAngels week 1 with expert earth, town portal, and sorcery/implosion. They want a map filled with random resources on every empty tile so that you can buy your 8 heroes and pretend it's a treasure hunt. blah blah blah.....reminds me of power hungry days on the blizzard circuit for WC3 FT. Different game but same little kids who don't want to wait for anything. Ah well...nothing to do but move on and forget how much people want god-mode. No point in complaining after years of seeing the same thing.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted March 21, 2005 09:10 AM |
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Which map(s) Consis? I am interested.
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2005 09:23 AM |
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Quote:
I would offer one of my maps but nobody really cares about balanced gameplay. They all want Black Dragons, Titans, and ArchAngels week 1 with expert earth, town portal, and sorcery/implosion. They want a map filled with random resources on every empty tile so that you can buy your 8 heroes and pretend it's a treasure hunt.
Very apt description of it, though trying to tell peeps in the zone this is like bashing your head against a brick wall.
Quote:
No point in complaining after years of seeing the same thing.
Here I disagree, loved this game for 6 yrs, nearly all of it playin online. I'll always whine if too many players are taking the easy way. I'll try to get em to play tougher maps....I'm even willing to take a beating when someone finally nails it. And thats just the first step.
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Myctteakyshd
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 21, 2005 12:51 PM |
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I guess there are 2 main reasons for Jebus played so much nowadays.
1. Itīs a very fast game but closed map style. You probably meet middle week 3, so u play about 3-4 hours. Extreme and Extreme II (which i like very much also) are templates where u normaly meet your opponent not before week 5/6 (XL, at least for me...) and this game lasts at least 6-7 hours. Most of the games in the zone are played for tribes at the moment, and the season ends in 3 months. So everyone tries to get as much games as he could, coz u get gold even for a loss (no points so...) and everyone wants his tribe in the finals.
2. Many new players are around. Most of them even donīt have much single player experience. If they would play maps like Extreme or Blockbuster only, they would probably lose their addiction very fast coz of losing all the time, coz there are still many point huggers around who only pick those newbies to gather their points.
On jebus, they will have some success, coz it is so rich. And 90% of all (new) players like castle most coz of Archangels and their speciality. They learn very fast what they can do with 3 angels at the start of week 2 and get the clue for other dificult fights as well. Some of them still take all their army to fight an utopia or the guards to the middle, coz they still donīt believe in the strength of "cure", "shield" and "wait, hit, hit".
And i could see how more and more players change from Jebus (too boring, too unbalanced, too easy....) to different and more difficult templates.
For example "Vortex" is the better (coz not as rich) template for a 2vs2 random game in my eyes.
Iīm working on a new template right now, which can be played 1on1 and 2on2. Itīs in the "Beta"-phase right now.. (some guys are testing it, waiting for feedback right now...). Itīs something like a mixture of Blockbuster and Jebus. Richness is average, no topes or relics in the 2 areas of each player, but meeting is only possible in treasure area (not like BB..)
Just my 2 cents though....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted March 21, 2005 02:01 PM |
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hehe heya rychen
I guess i'm one or those "new guys" Angelito was talking about.It's been about 4 months since i discovered there are others templates than the original 3do ones.Since then i learned some stuff about the rmg file and about the basics of template design, both from threads i read here and from testing of my own.
About my gamestyle: the main reason i play Jebus so much is cos it gives me a whole new perspective on the game.
What do i mean by that?
Before caming to this board and starting online gaming i was that type of player that would go for the capitol week 2 day 1, and then hopefully manage to build the lvl 7 dwelling day 7 week 2(maybe except playing stronghold).I only hired 1 more hero day one and endgame i prolly never had more than 5 heroes.If i were to describe my gamestyle then i would call it "conservator"(to avoid calling it stupid )
Then one day Angelito described a game he had with a newcomer on Jebus template(endfight week 3, 7 archangels, big stats).At first this sounded imposible to me and although i respected the man at first i thought he eighter lied or cheated.Then i began playing on that template myself and i learned step by step how that can be achieved.
One big advantage with playing jebus as a newcomer, trying to change your gamestyle as i did is the amount of resources.If you tell a newbie who is used to go for the money first, to buy as many heroes as he can day 1 and go for the creatures dwells week 1 on extreme 2 for exemple(a template i love BTW) and that he should get angels week 1, he'll prolly listen and then try it himself.But i guarantee he'll never suceed!
Jebus is an accesible map, only cos it's so rich.In my case after a while i managed to develop a gameplan on jebus and now i can say i know my way around this template quite well.Still the more one plays this template, the more obvious it is that it's highly unbalanced sometimes and that castle has a great advantage due to conservatories.The reason i think this template is played online so much isn't speed as Angelito suggested, but the fact that this particular template seems to become more like a fixed map for the ones that master it proprely.I mean there are no big surprises on Jebus.You have angels week 1, you buy 3 angels day 8, fight all u can week 2, upgrade to AA, if u can find some cons or external lvl 7 dwells on your staring area you take them ASAP, if no so be it.You only have to fulfil one goal: break into the treasure area as soon as possible.The one that is there first usually wins.
Realising this i started playing other templates more(as i guess most of the newplayers are or surely will).So i have discovered that you cannot design a specific build order on extreme or panic for exemple, but you have to adapt to a specific map.With the knoledge i have already achieved by playing on jebus thigs can be done easier than is i had started playing a poor template right away.
So as a conclusion, for n00bs like me, starting with jebus is usefull, but even more usefull is moving along to other more challanging templates.
Amongst the vets i don't know, maybe it's just chic to play Jebus nowdays
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 21, 2005 09:01 PM |
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Csarmi,
My most balanced map is called "Power Struggle". It is a Medium made on an XL template to accomodate for the Navigation skill(ie normal land mass with comparably long rivers). All skills available for all heroes(can give necro to Hack or Leadership to Galthran if you wanted). Heroes skills are fixed.(ie Torosar actually starts with artillery skill). All starting stats brought down to zero att/def +magic heroes=2pow/2know might heroes=1pow/1know. All terrain present. Conflux & Necropolis made fair for gameplay(no unfair advantages). Town Portal, Dimension Door, and Fly spells unavailable. Still want to try it?
I would further suggest removing Gunnar, Dessa, and Kyrre if you wanted to but I haven't done so.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted March 21, 2005 09:47 PM |
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 21, 2005 09:56 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 21 Mar 2005
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Ok Here Yah Go!
**Sends the map to Csarmi's email...**
Please make sure to come back to this thread when you're done playing it, and say what you thought of the map. It's important to me that you please describe whether you liked it or hated it.
Edit: my email server is down. I'll send it when it comes back online.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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TheRealDeal
Promising
Supreme Hero
Foobum* of Justice!
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posted March 21, 2005 10:28 PM |
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I'd like it too Consis! That sounds like an ok map.
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*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 21, 2005 10:43 PM |
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Ok I guess I understand that its an accessible template to new random players....and you can get a game done on it in 4 hrs, though to me it cant possibly teach players the best aspects of randoms. Randoms are a great test of skill UNTIL everything is handed to you like on jebus. You go from playing jebus to playing extreme or marathon and there would be a 50% chance of suicide (wouldnt there angelito  ) It doesnt train players in the tough aspects of randoms imo. Why not play skirmish for a tough 2-3 hr template. Ring maybe for a faster game and ring is only slightly less insane. Panic is also a good one...but I just think jebus will teach too many bad habits and players will expect too much. Randoms should be tough, and unlike fixed maps .
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Myctteakyshd
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 21, 2005 11:50 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 21 Mar 2005
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Email Working Now
Server back online. Lord_Woock, TheRealDeal, and Csarmi all good to go. Map sent. Be sure to post if you liked it or hated it please.
Rychenroller,
I agree. That's why I went to such great lengths and spent so much time looking to prevent exploitation and things of that nature. My map is fixed but there's no better map(in my opinion) suited for balanced gameplay. I feel that the random templates could never be played with any real sense of fairness. Even on the best templates you find that Eagle eye and many other spells and artifacts are considered useless.
It's all good though. I can tell you know how to play an honorable game in spite of all the zone brats looking to exploit game bugs and fixed map memorizations.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted March 22, 2005 06:52 AM |
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Edited By: csarmi on 22 Mar 2005
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I am sure I'll like it, I don't really play multi though :-)
edit:
The map should come with a text file (including all the changes), also; the major ones should be listed in the description too.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 22, 2005 06:47 PM |
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Nah
No need for a text file. If you have a question, simply ask me.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted March 22, 2005 08:09 PM |
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OK
LIst all the changes here.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted March 22, 2005 11:59 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 22 Mar 2005
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Whatever Happened To Trust?
You could simply trust me when I say it's a fair game but I'll list the changes anyway.
Heroes
~All heroes now start with a single secondary skill or none at all.
~Certain "Weeny-Monster" specialty heroes now start with basic logistics. For example, Gretchin, Shakti, Ignatius, Straker, etc.
~Galthran, Isra, and Vidomina are only heroes with necromancy to start.
~All 350 gold bonus heroes now start with basic estates.
~All starting primary skill have been reduced to zero att/def, 1/1 pow/know for might heroes, and 2/2 pow/know for magic heroes. Some exceptions are the 3 logistic specialists who start with zero on all primary skills. Element specialists such as Erdamon, Thunar, Kalt, Lacus, Fiur, and Ignissa, start with 1 power, 3 knowledge, and each start with the corresponding elemental summoning spell per their specialty.
~Thunar and Erdamon start with no secondary skills and Lacus/Kalt start with basic navigation.
~No hero starts with diplomacy, scouting, ballistics, leadership, learning, luck, pathfinding, scholar, or wisdom.
~All special heroes such as Xeron, Kilgor, Boragus, Dracon, Lord Haart(undead), Gelu, Adrienne, Mutare/drake, Katherine, and Roland will show up in Taverns.
Artifacts
~All uber artifacts are disabled(which means player must assemble the pieces)
Grail
~Only grail present is Fotress neutral town in the middle of the lake.
Secondary skills
~All secondary skills available(can be learned for free) for all heroes. Exception is magic which is only available for purchase in the Conflux.
Spells
~Town portal, Dimension Door, and Fly are disabled. Tome of Air and Earth also removed to prevent further spell exploitation. The Conflux also has no Grail thus no uber spells available.
~Each Town has only a few spells available to it based on corresponding Hero specialties. For example: Castle town has only water spells available because it only has water spell specialty heroes(Adela & Loynis & Cuthbert). Same applies to every other town.
Dragon Utopia
~None Present
Necro/Conflux Equalization
Now equalized. Only a few Necromancer Heroes start with the specialty, main random monster is Boars. They yield minimal skeleton turnout in infinite growth pattern. No heroes start with diplomacy. Conflux castle on sand terrain(great speed reduction) and each town must pay a single troop of significant value to exit their respective localized regions. Undead = Power Lich and Conflux = Magma Elemental.
Minor Notes
~Tan player's gate guard will need to be switched(in the map editor to Ogre Mages if Tan is Stronghold instead of Rampart. It is currently set to Grand elves for the Rampart player.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Leo_Lion
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The 5th Element & 6th Sense!
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posted March 23, 2005 01:17 AM |
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I like fair games that aren't ressource rich because I like to "get going" a little before stumbling into an endfight unprepared, but I don't particularly like XL maps either. If anyone knows of any good Medium - Large maps that give people a chance to explore and creatively manage ressources at the same time, please let me know.
Based on the above reasons, you might be able to tell that I really like randoms. So, if you know any Random Templates that would work well with my preferences or if you would be interested in sending me ones any of you have designed...please do so! 
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*The end to no beginning...
*Take care, Leo
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zsa
Famous Hero
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posted March 23, 2005 04:45 AM |
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The reason why jeebus cross is so popular is because a lot of people don't appreciate the strategy and tactic involved in the game. For them getting a big army and going bum bum on everything is what makes them happy.
It's nothing very complicated, it's just as easy as that.
They might even be good heroes players, not necessarily newbs. And tigris, it's not something very hard to pickup. I picked up the clear-your-side-of-map-with-8-heroes in 2-3 games.
I could never stand and play too many toh closed maps, but that's just me.
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"You sound like zsa who only plays the game on forums" - Russ
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