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| Thread: Best Sixth Level Creature... |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Perji
Known Hero
Necromancer
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posted March 07, 2002 01:50 PM |
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Quote:
Sultan Efreets - 13 in speed is awesome, and that fire shield is a big pain when fighting them.
You can easily add their fire immunity. With armageddon and only the efreets, Inferno rocks the house. But not too much, though....
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Things go wrong because people build walls instead of bridges
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Milamber
Adventuring Hero
Magician of the greater path
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posted March 09, 2002 08:27 AM |
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I believe that Dread Knights are the most powerful 6th level 'Monster'; even though they are just people with swords on horses. what makes them good is their double damage ability and high HP. The only other 'monster' that comes close as a challenge is the Naga Queen, which has no retaliation.
fortunately for that because if 6 armed snake ladys and perfectly normal knights had any relation 'Whooaahhh' i think ive gone crosseyed'
anyway i'd like to deduce that Dread Knights are the most powerful as ive tested them with dreadknights being the enemy on all occasions.
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 "....student of black robes and friend of Valheru...."
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jondifool
Promising
Adventuring Hero
extinct but alive!
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posted March 11, 2002 12:45 AM |
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Which of the Sixth do you find appealing?
I find wywern monarcs most appealing.
Not the best, actual nearly the worst- but most appealing!! smiles. (does it need to be the same??)
Actual I like them alot. And it appeals to me to be challenged to use a creature in a good way.
They have a very interesting special, there is dificult to use to full effect, but can makes a difference!!It lowers hitpoints with 10 % each rounds for 3 rounds total. Do I remember wrong or was the chance increased to 50%(or something like) in SOD. Here is how i like to use them.
On a one on one basis against other 6'th they are not that strong , but they shold not be underestimated either.
And remember that if movement allows it they would simply leave a poisened target and comeback when the target have lost 30% health. If able to do that twice they can take out most 6'th level stack.
they tend to be used against shooters, while gorgon and hydra tries to pull off their tricks.
But the poison is best used against alot of different targets. And a shooting stack is just not less of a threat if poisoned. And wyvern tend to be gangbanged if getting to far ahead early. So if another stack can reach the shooter let them do it (lizardmens comes to my mind!!!) Or just let the high defense absorb what it can. Wyvern can finish of shooters later!
The problem is that they are best to use against the big strong stack (in numbers), but this is also where they suffers most, so to use them safe, let them hit every thing the dragonflies had already hit(in same round if posible), except maybe shooters!
After a big (strength and numbers!!) stack is poisened, the greater baselisk could attack and if stonegaze works, lo and behold. Just let the creature stack loose health.
A nice little trick to pull off! And that big stack is properly the best target for the baselisk anyway!
blind, slow, quicksand, forcefield, is spells there can give poison time and space to work!
And poison needs time to work to be effiecient. But luckely thats what the high defence of the fortress does give!
I could keep on going, but i'll stop here
Jondifool
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The Oxe is slow, but earth have patience
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god_boy
Known Hero
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posted April 13, 2002 02:56 PM |
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I think most of us here agree that either the black/dread knight or the naga queen is the strongest. I peronally believe that the naga queen is stronger. Here's my analysis of: Dread knights v.s Naga Queens
Dread knights have a damage range of 15 - 30. The average is therefore 22.5 each. Naga Queens do a solid 30 damage.
However, the dread knights' attack is 5 higher than the naga's defence. Therefore, they do 25% more damage, increasing the Dread knights' damage to 28.125
The naga queens attack is 2 less then the dread knights defence. Therefore, they do 4% less damage, decreasing the naga queens' damage to 28.8
Overall, the naga queens' damage (28.8) is still slightly higher than the dread knights' (28.125)
The dread knights have a 20% chance of doing double damage. The naga queens can attack without retaliation, which means that it can attack twice in a round (one as attack and one in retaliation) compared to the dread knights one when fighting each other. Therefore the naga queen has a 100% chance of doing twice the damage.
One may argue that the dread knight has a 20% chance of cursing the enemy, but when in combat with a naga queen, I don't see how minimising a 30 - 30 damage range will make any difference. 
There's also the matter of speed: the dread knight's 9 compared to the naga queen's 7. All this means is that the dread knight has first strike, but since the first strike won't kill the naga queen, this makes little difference, as the naga queen will strike twice in return (the first in retaliation, and then their own chance to attack, without retailation, mind), and then twice again for every one of the dread knight's attacks. Also, both of these units can cross the battle screen in two rounds.
The naga queen is only 100 gold more expensive than the dread knight, not much more for an obviously superior unit.
Cheers.
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I walk in the shadow of the valley of darkness, yet I am unafraid, for You are with me.
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barbarian
Famous Hero
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posted April 14, 2002 08:41 PM |
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Dread Knights defenatly dread knights.
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It's optional.
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted April 14, 2002 08:59 PM |
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Quote:
Dread Knights defenatly dread knights.
yes, dread knights all teh way
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god_boy
Known Hero
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posted April 15, 2002 03:31 PM |
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c'mon guys. after all that i've just written, how can you still say that dreadknights are the best level 6 creature? 
Cheers
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I walk in the shadow of the valley of darkness, yet I am unafraid, for You are with me.
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Carouselambra
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 16, 2002 02:11 AM |
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god_boy: The Naga queens are good, but it always seems to be that I can access the knights faster, I do think their structure costs less then the queens do. And although the curse may be useless on nagas, its effective against other units that have a large damage range. 
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Bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted April 18, 2002 11:26 AM |
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Personally, I prefer Naga Queens. Dread Knights are only superior if you factor in the chance for double damage, so I'll put it this way: If I had to bet on one, I'd pick the naga queen. I'd sooner bet on the 80% chance that the Dread Knight won't do double damage than on the 20% chance that it will.
To sum up:
Naga Queens: number one
Dread Knights: close second
Efreet sultans: pretty good
War unicorns, Magic Elementals, Champions, Cyclops Kings: average
Scorpicores: weak
Wyverns: disgustingly weak.
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Hoplosternum
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 18, 2002 12:03 PM |
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I think that the type of Maps you are playing has an impact on which is the best. If you are playing on a large map where you will have 3+ towns you tend to have too little money to buy every creature each week from all the towns. Then you are not just comparing one Dread Knight to one Wyvern or one War Unicorn but how much they cost too. War Unicorns are excellent value for money, far better than even Dread Knights. A Dread Knight should beat a War Unicorn one on one but would not usually beat a War Unicorn and say two Silver Pegasus (which costs the same as the Dread Knight - 1500).
The Naga Queen is worse than the Dread Knight when you consider it's cost. Although it is a great unit the Tower's Seventh level costs so much money is likely to be in even shorter supply for the Tower player than the Necropolis.
My vote is for the War Unicorn based on it's value for money. I do like the Dread Knight a lot though. But then I play mostly on larger maps.
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god_boy
Known Hero
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posted April 18, 2002 02:42 PM |
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I'd have to agree with you on that one. The dread knight's cost is balanced out by the cheap lvl 7 unit but with naga queen, nothing balances it out (titans: 5000 gold plus 2 gems). Recently I was playing the Dragon Slayer campaign on AB and found that I could only just buy lvl 6 and 7 tower units with the weekly income if I had more than three tower towns. 
Cheers
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I walk in the shadow of the valley of darkness, yet I am unafraid, for You are with me.
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d_yang1
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 18, 2002 10:48 PM |
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gotta go with the masses
This may not be anything new or hasn't been already mentioned but (in general) I'd say it definitely depends on the map or your attacking strategy. Of course it'd be a lot easier to decide the best lvl 6 creature if you chose its opponent or knew what spells and magic expertise your hero had. If you've got armageddon, who's not going to choose efreet sultans? and if you can cast mass haste, why bother with shooters or flyers? but if you got mass slow, cyclops are your choice. Anyways here's my picks in order:
Dread Knights - good speed, strong hp, great damage and the double damage bonus make it among the best land creatures in the game
Naga Queens - high costs offsets the no retaliation bonus but if you're in a tower defending in a seige, you'd better have these lovely ladies around - besides the speed difference is large enough to be an issue.
War Unicorns - easily the best value of strength vs cost for lvl 6.
Cyclopes - provides good balance to an army but too difficult to build the structure. seige ability doesn't offset melee penalty and don't even mention the uselessness of regeneration
Champions - again difficult to build and the jousting bonus not nearly as significant as bonuses for other lvl 6 creatures
Scorpicors - sure you can't count on the paralyzing bonus but when you do get it, it can sure save make things easier and they almost as fast as the sultan efreets.
Sultan Efreets - they got speed but compared to the land troops but when you fight army to army these are often the first stack to go. the fire shield is most useful with higher leveled heroes and fire magic immunity is only useful if you've got armageddon.
Wyvern Monarchs - lack of hp, weaker attack and poor bonus attack keep these guys last
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Warrior_Angel
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 20, 2002 06:17 PM |
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I'll name upgraded versions.
Champions
Won't wanna say much about these guys. They are good for jousting bonuses (the more they move, the more damage they deal). 110 HP is tough, but still he's vulnerable to magic (favourite Magic Arrow target, besides marksmen).
War Unicorn
Aura of Magic protection...can't get hypnotised. Blinding attack looks cool, but not as effective as paralysis.
Naga Queen
These guys (or girls) rock. No enemy retaliation!
Efreet Sultan
Fire shield, hates genies, immune to fire. Hmm..
Dread Knight
Tough, these guys are hard to get around though, unless they get hastened.
Scorpicore
Not much about them. Not too useful.
Cyclops King
If you got the patch, they aren't so good. Otherwise, take down walls.
Wyvern Monarchi
Poison isn't useful either.
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sos
Known Hero
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posted April 23, 2002 09:10 PM |
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Quote:
Sultan Efreets - they got speed but compared to the land troops but when you fight army to army these are often the first stack to go. the fire shield is most useful with higher leveled heroes and fire magic immunity is only useful if you've got armageddon.
This is the most pathetic analysis of a unit that I have ever heard lol. Let's see
Speed: Faster than all units, except AA, AD, and upgraded dragons. Can reach the other side and block shooters in one turn even without tactics or haste. Hasted is as fast as AA.
Fire shield: 20% of the received damage is inflicted back, right? Wrong! Depending on the A/D difference, secondary skills and spells the reflected damage can be even more than the received one! Sultans are better used with armorer heroes agains low level units and shielded. The received damage will be reduced by all these factors, but the reflected damage won't. You can easilly achieve 50% or more reflected damage if use them correctly.
Spell imunity: Besides the obvious armagedon, fire imunity helps agains berserk, blind, and curse - some of the best fire spells. Besides efreets can't be magic arrowed - invaluable in the beginning of the game.
All in all - one of the best level 6 units, and one of the easiest to get!
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d_yang1
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 24, 2002 01:05 AM |
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sultan efreet analysis
<sigh> ok, here's my explanation tho i didn't really want to get into. i'm not going to go into a 1 stack vs 1 stack discussion because no one plays a game like that, its army vs army and a measure of a stack is how useful it is in an army attack. the strategy is using inferno (due to its 6th and 7th level unit's flying abilities) is inherently different than those of other towns.
Quote:
Speed: Faster than all units, except AA, AD, and upgraded dragons. Can reach the other side and block shooters in one turn even without tactics or haste. Hasted is as fast as AA.
I'm not about to argue that army speed isn't valuable in all combat situations but the capability to reach the other side in 1 turn isn't necessarily a good strategy unless you're going up against mostly ranged attacking units, assuming the sultan efreets line up with opponent stack in question. its always been my strategy to gang up on a few stacks at a time taking into account first attacks and army strength so sultan efreets are going to be among the first stacks to be attacked (unless the inferno troops have tactics or casted mass haste)
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Fire shield: 20% of the received damage is inflicted back, right? Wrong! Depending on the A/D difference, secondary skills and spells the reflected damage can be even more than the received one! Sultans are better used with armorer heroes agains low level units and shielded. The received damage will be reduced by all these factors, but the reflected damage won't. You can easilly achieve 50% or more reflected damage if use them correctly.
naturally sultan efreets are an ideal unit to counter ranged attackers and at the same time are a good target for spells and ranged attacks. but, do people really rely on using the fire shield as an effective strategy? when i battle inferno troops attacking efreet sultans has a lower priority than attacking devils (first attack and #'s into account). for me, it all depends on how the inferno troops are advancing or not, who gets first attack and who i can gang up on - fire shield plays a minimal part. i'm not saying its as bad as the wyvern's poison but it is most useful fighting lower level units, which won't happen early in the game and later in the game you have large enough armies that worrying about fire shield takes a back seat, compared to other 6 level attack bonuses (cyclops and wyverns not withstanding). and when i play inferno, i keep efreets and devils back until i can enough backup to make them last more than a round or two
Quote:
Spell imunity: Besides the obvious armagedon, fire imunity helps agains berserk, blind, and curse - some of the best fire spells. Besides efreets can't be magic arrowed - invaluable in the beginning of the game.
perhaps i'm biased since i feel that fire magic is the weakest school of magic in homm3 but if you were going to cast beserk on your opponent, it wouldn't be often you'd cast it on sultan efreet. it's always been my experience when playing inferno that after awhile your efreets stack gets killed off quicker than the other stacks and you typically cast beserk on ground troops (like pit lords or cereberus). blind and armageddon are IMO the best fire spells but the spells you should use against sultan efreets are damage-inducing spells since they have lower hp than ground
All in all - one of the best level 6 units, and one of the easiest to get!
pretty obvious i prefer ground units for their higher hp and lower speed vs flying units with higher speed and lower hp (naturally i can get in a bind when i battle on cursed ground or don't have contigencies in place to counter for mass slow). i really don't think they're easier to get though. when i play with the higher levels of game difficulty, getting 5 of each resource is harder than getting 10 of one type cuz you can set your armies to focus on one type of resource. but its sure a hell of a lot easier to get than the cyclops cave.
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sos
Known Hero
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posted April 24, 2002 01:43 AM |
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fair enough
I think I wouldn't replace efreets with any other level 6 when I play Inferno. I have won many games with Arma + efreets that I would otherwise lose. And unlike Blackies you have them much much earlier. Regular efreet require only 3 mercury, sulfur, and gems and unless you play on impossible you will start with at least 4 of each. You can have 2 efreets on day 3 (with gogs prebuilt), only fortress can get wuyverns faster (but this will cost 15 wood, which may be a bad idea). Sultans require 5 more mercury, sulfur, and gems and I've had very few games (if any) that I couldn't built them fast on random 160%.
Speed is very important for me. Playing inferno you have the fastest high level combo and can easily do wait-attack-retreat. You never throw them to the enemy immediately with equal armies, they are very inmportant to lose. Flying obviously is a big plus, especially in a siege.
The fire shield has an important psychological factor that the enemy (talking human here) doesn't want to attack them hand to hand, or gang up on them, because will take some damage back with each attack (besides retaliation). They try to cast damage spells or shoot them and thus not damage your more precios devils. And 90 hp is quite ok, especially when resurrecting them
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d_yang1
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 24, 2002 05:05 PM |
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efreet usage
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I have won many games with Arma + efreets that I would otherwise lose. And unlike Blackies you have them much much earlier.
no argument there, when/if you can get armageddon you're due to dish out some major ass-whooping
Quote:
Regular efreet require only 3 mercury, sulfur, and gems and unless you play on impossible you will start with at least 4 of each. You can have 2 efreets on day 3 (with gogs prebuilt), only fortress can get wuyverns faster (but this will cost 15 wood, which may be a bad idea). Sultans require 5 more mercury, sulfur, and gems and I've had very few games (if any) that I couldn't built them fast on random 160%.
unless i find a big need (need really important resources guarded by ranged attacking units), i'm hesitant to get efreets until week 2 especially where hell hounds and pit fiends may be sufficient. i'm a big believer in getting only the units to best counter the armies guarding the resources you need (early in the game).
Quote:
Speed is very important for me. Playing inferno you have the fastest high level combo and can easily do wait-attack-retreat. You never throw them to the enemy immediately with equal armies, they are very inmportant to lose. Flying obviously is a big plus, especially in a siege.
the wait-attack-retreat is a fundamental in the early stages of a game but as you build bigger armies, you kind of let it go.
Quote:
The fire shield has an important psychological factor that the enemy (talking human here) doesn't want to attack them hand to hand, or gang up on them, because will take some damage back with each attack (besides retaliation). They try to cast damage spells or shoot them and thus not damage your more precios devils. And 90 hp is quite ok, especially when resurrecting them
i find the bonus attacks of the naga queen and death knights a more intimidating factor. sultans are definitely the units to use to destroy ranged attackers while your ground troops take out the brunt of the other army.
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Dar_Kraven
Bad-mannered
Adventuring Hero
Finally Sober
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posted July 03, 2002 09:18 PM |
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Cyclops King, They are Perfect for a Castle seige..And Do Fair Damage, With Ranged attack, Decent HP
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daikon
Adventuring Hero
with great magic powers
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posted July 03, 2002 09:42 PM |
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Quote:
I'd have to agree with you on that one. The dread knight's cost is balanced out by the cheap lvl 7 unit but with naga queen, nothing balances it out (titans: 5000 gold plus 2 gems). Recently I was playing the Dragon Slayer campaign on AB and found that I could only just buy lvl 6 and 7 tower units with the weekly income if I had more than three tower towns.
Cheers
Tower is the most expensive town of HMM3. Everyone must reach a consense: will you analyse a creature by itīs own or by the context of itīs Town. There are other thing about Dread Knights and Nagas: Dread Knight doesnīt have morale, what usually is a disadvantage. But he is not affected by mind spells either, and thatīs good.
(Sorry for my bad english)
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Sorry for my bad english...
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albertarslan
Hired Hero
Ancient powerful wizards-DRUID
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posted March 16, 2004 05:33 AM |
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(quote) The best 6th level monster..
I would go with unicorns. They have high HP. Even though dread knight has 10 more health than unicorn. I like the special ability. (BLIND). You can just strongest enemy creature and blind him. Which your opponent will use dispel magic and waste his magic turn. If your opponent doesn't use dispel magic then go and blind another good monster and so on...
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If you intelligent share your wisdom, If you unexperienced then learn.
Come to Stonehenge if you wanna see your death.
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