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| Thread: Which are the best creatures for each tier? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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okiesolidarity
Known Hero
right brain/left brain wizard
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posted May 19, 2006 12:05 PM |
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Lvl 1 - assassins clearly have an edge in most areas, but taking growth into consideration, along with special abilities, etc, my vote is cast for Master Gremlins, who have good initiative (11), 7 shots, the ability to heal golems (useful early game), and are damn cheap (35 gold). Sprites also seem fairly useful after building the Blooming Grove...great initiative (12) and a lvl 1 spellcaster
Lvl 2 - with the ritual pit, the number of blood furies becomes suitable enough for them to really shine. highest initative (16), speed (8), and avg damage (6) for a lvl 2; good hit points, and great special abilities
Lvl 3 - I don't think much can compete with master hunters. double shot and warding arrows are very nice, giving it avg damage of 13 and a chance to stun opponents, letting you shoot them more. Still not too expensive (190), and enough arrows to last almost any battle (16).
Lvl 4 - The Grim Raider catches my eye. 60 HP, 10.5 avg damage, 10 atk, 8 mvmt and Raider Charge. Lizard Bite seems very useful, too, especially for quick elemental chains with Blood Furies.
Lvl 5 - Close...maybe Hell Charger, boasting 18 atk and defense, amazing initiative (16), Fear Attack and Fright Aura, and a building that boosts production by 1 a week...oh and they're cheap, too (666). Archliches are enticing, too, with 19 atk and defense, 18 avg damage, death cloud, and a spell book with a decent stock of dark magic.
Lvl 6 - I am curious about the Treant. Turboboost? 181 HP is fantastic, along with 29 defense...this unit is a fairly cheap (1500) tank, and you can build a dwelling to boost production by 1 a week.
Lvl 7 - Black Dragons edge out most competition here. The HP (240), atk and defense of 30, 57.5 avg damage, 9 mvmt, flying, immunity to spells, everything is good or great..fubulous unit. I want to add that I don't think the archdevil is as weak a unit as many people have been saying...he DOES have teleport, and 31 atk, with an avg dmg of 51 that begs for divine might. Plus he can summon Pit Lords from fallen comrades (a very nice perk).
I would like to toss in my two cents. I think most of the creatures can be used effectively within differing strategies for each faction. Choosing a creature that is the "best", becomes difficult, because certain creatures are more or less useful depending on circumstance.
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silentbobus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 19, 2006 11:47 PM |
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Alright, looks like there was an error in my SS. It looks like you have to get the sqrt of power to compare creatures amoungst themselves. After this correction, the ammount of power/cost comes out roughly equal for all creatures as well.
Most powerful creature per tier:
1: Assasin (Dungeon)
2: Blood Fury (Dungeon)
3: Minotaur Guard (Dungeon)
4: Grim Raider (Dungeon)
5: Deep Hydra (Dungeon)
6: Paladin (Haven)
7: Black Dragon (Dungeon)
Most creature growth per tier:
1: Imps (Inferno)
2: Obsidian Gargolye (Academy)
3: Steel Golem (Academy)
4: Vampire Lord (Necropolis)
5: Deep Hydra (Dungeon)
6: Paladin (Haven)
7: Black Dragon (Dungeon)
Top 10 Best Creatures For Their Cost:
1. Imp
2. War Dancer
3. Steel Golem
4. Nightmare
5. Horned Overseer
6. Vampire Lord
7. Paladin
8. Imperial Griffin
9. Black Dragon
10. Master Gremlin
Worst 10 Creatures For Their Cost:
1. Shadow Matriarch
2. Inquisitor
3. Pit Lord
4. Archmage
5. Titan
6. Spectral Dragon
7. Emerald Dragon
8. Druid Elder
9. Arch Devil
10 Succubus Mistress
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kreszantas
Adventuring Hero
TOH Coordinator
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posted May 20, 2006 04:11 AM |
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Why does everyone always seem to forget about all the creatures that dont cost anything as being the most cost effective creature at that time? Many times I have had joiners from a wrong town group join throw that group on a second hero and clear maps far faster.
To anyone that breaks down the stats to the point where only one or two points makes a power difference, is either one overthinking the computer or two not taking into account the human factor.
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Professional Sarcastic, never underestimate the value of truth as being only your point of view.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted May 20, 2006 12:02 PM |
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Quote:
Why does everyone always seem to forget about all the creatures that dont cost anything as being the most cost effective creature at that time? Many times I have had joiners from a wrong town group join throw that group on a second hero and clear maps far faster.
To anyone that breaks down the stats to the point where only one or two points makes a power difference, is either one overthinking the computer or two not taking into account the human factor.
You cannot give a bullet proof evaluation of which unit is exactly the strongest in game, because sometimes people apply different strategies, or you are in a situation where having a spellcaster is just what does the trick for you, or having a shooter, or having a tank unit - or you name it. However, you can do an estimate on strength by saying, which unit will win if we put 100 of this unit against 100 of that unit, and allow no spellcasting from heroes and so on - or even better, say 10 weeks growth of this one against 10 weeks growth of that one, in order to allow for different growth numbers. And I think it's very relevant, because the towns have to come out very closely balanced - otherwise, it'll make too much of a disadvantage for some units in game play.
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silentbobus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 20, 2006 03:30 PM |
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Oh, and with my new rankings, one Black Dragon is the equivalent of roughly 138 conscripts, a much more resonable ammount. Before it was something like 20k conscripts. I'm going to have to tweak my subjective ratings for each of the units a bit though, I think that I have to give a boost to most of the shooters in general, since they are almost always more helpful offensively, and are only worse defnesively if you're already getting overwhelmed. Once I've got my SS tweaked I'll post it here.
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JustAFan
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 20, 2006 05:38 PM |
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There is simply no doubt... Best lvl1 is master gremlin!
Arguments:
1.Shooter
2.Repair ability (I think it`s bugged cause i can swear I resurrected not only Golems in a fight but whatever.)
3.Artifact ability of academy... With tons of lvl1 creatures with an +4 attack or +2 luck artifact attached to the stack they become kinda powerfull.
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okiesolidarity
Known Hero
right brain/left brain wizard
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posted May 20, 2006 06:04 PM |
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Quote:
Most creature growth per tier:
1: Imps (Inferno)
2: Obsidian Gargolye (Academy)
3: Steel Golem (Academy)
4: Vampire Lord (Necropolis)
5: Deep Hydra (Dungeon)
6: Paladin (Haven)
7: Black Dragon (Dungeon)
I have a hard time following this...You must be referring to the effectiveness of the upgrade, and not the weekly growth, yeah?...because to the best of my knowledge, none of these represent which creature has the highest growth/week.
I would also like to see what factors you are including with your assessment of creatures' powers, and their power divided by cost. It looks like you are snubbing shooters, spellcasters, and creatures with important special abilities. Are you taking speed and initiative into account?...if so, how much are they weighted?
How do you weight something like the drain life ability, or the ability to summon troops from fallen troops? How do you weight creatures that combo well off of various additional skills and abilities (eg refined mana for spellcasters)?
My problem with using the example of 100 troops of "A" vs 100 troops of "B" is two-fold: Firstly, as was already mentioned, it's not an accurate representation of what each hero could potentially have, troopwise, at the end of however many weeks. Also, it doesn't take into account all of the other factors that affect a battle, other than creature stat numbers. A similar problem arises when you compare weekly growth of troops. Maybe 35 scouts are better in battle than 110 peasants, but over the course of the 5 weeks that those peasants have been accumulating, that kingdom has gained an extra 2310 gold from those peasants (by the end of week 5). Similarly, 35 scouts may be better than 100 skeletons, but who knows how many skeletons a necromancer will have by the end of 5 weeks?
This is what makes it tricky to say what troops are definitively better than other troops, as all of them serve different purposes to the bigger picture.
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silentbobus
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 20, 2006 08:32 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Most creature growth per tier:
1: Imps (Inferno)
2: Obsidian Gargolye (Academy)
3: Steel Golem (Academy)
4: Vampire Lord (Necropolis)
5: Deep Hydra (Dungeon)
6: Paladin (Haven)
7: Black Dragon (Dungeon)
I have a hard time following this...You must be referring to the effectiveness of the upgrade, and not the weekly growth, yeah?...because to the best of my knowledge, none of these represent which creature has the highest growth/week.
I would also like to see what factors you are including with your assessment of creatures' powers, and their power divided by cost. It looks like you are snubbing shooters, spellcasters, and creatures with important special abilities. Are you taking speed and initiative into account?...if so, how much are they weighted?
How do you weight something like the drain life ability, or the ability to summon troops from fallen troops? How do you weight creatures that combo well off of various additional skills and abilities (eg refined mana for spellcasters)?
My problem with using the example of 100 troops of "A" vs 100 troops of "B" is two-fold: Firstly, as was already mentioned, it's not an accurate representation of what each hero could potentially have, troopwise, at the end of however many weeks. Also, it doesn't take into account all of the other factors that affect a battle, other than creature stat numbers. A similar problem arises when you compare weekly growth of troops. Maybe 35 scouts are better in battle than 110 peasants, but over the course of the 5 weeks that those peasants have been accumulating, that kingdom has gained an extra 2310 gold from those peasants (by the end of week 5). Similarly, 35 scouts may be better than 100 skeletons, but who knows how many skeletons a necromancer will have by the end of 5 weeks?
This is what makes it tricky to say what troops are definitively better than other troops, as all of them serve different purposes to the bigger picture.
Actually, should have been written as power*growth. While Imps individually as less powerful than Assasins, you get many more of them. Here is my rating system:
Offense = Average Damage * (1 + 5%*attack rating)
Defense = HP / (1 - 2.5%*defense rating)
Quickness = Speed + Initiative
Subjective = My subjective rating from 1.0 to 2.0
Power = Sqrt(Offense * Defense * Quickness * Subjective)
PowerGrowth = Power * Creature Growth per week
As you saw from the other chart, Imps came out with the best power for their cost.
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Revnger
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 20, 2006 10:47 PM |
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Freakishly awesome charts alcibiades thank you much for them.
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Iris
Responsible
Supreme Hero
of Typos
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posted June 14, 2006 05:16 PM |
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Here's my list of favs and runners up:
Level 1
Best: Sprites
They're the only level 1 creatures that can cast!  Sure, they only have enough mana to cast twice, but by then, your opponent has most likely moved some creatures up far enough for them to reach. And given that they have such high initiatives, they can hit and run, wait, then hit and run again...etc. And this is not to mention they have the Spray attack to hit 3 squares, AND they don't allow retaliation!
Runner Up: Skeleton Archers
I would give the Skelly Archers my second vote, but they're only effective in large numbers, and you can only amass them like that if you have necromancy. It seems too conditional to me, so I stand by my Spirtes. 
Level 2
Best: Blood Furies
Like the Sprites, they don't allow retaliation, have high initiative, and do very good damage. Given those things, they're more or less the same as ranged units.  (On a side note, has anyone noticed that their growth rate is lower than their respective faction's level 3 units? That's how powerful they are.)
Runner Up: War Dancers
The only other decent level 2 units are the War Dancers because they hit all adjacent squares, but it leaves them in the open to be torn apart.  I don't like that.
Level 3
Best: Master Hunters
Master Hunters, hands down. Double shot + Warding Arrow = your turn forever.  Okay, not quite, but you get the idea.
Runner Up: Cerberi
High initiative, attacks 3 squares, no retaliation. That seems to be a trend in my favorites list...
Level 4
Best: Archmagi
This is the toughest one, by far. I like all of the 4th tier units, but I have to pick one. :/ The Imperial Griffons are great and they can dive, but unfortunately, when they return, they land at a random area, which sometimes exposes them a lot to the enemy. Grim Riders are pretty tough, but again, they expose themselves when they charge forward (to take full advantage of their bonus) into the enemy's terrain. I love the Elder Druids, but they can't really compete with the Archmagi's fireball. :/
Runners Up: Succubus Mistresses and Vampire Lords
They both have their strong points. Succubi are rarely targeted (except by spells) because of their ranged retaliation and their chain shot effect. Death to the enemy. So as a result, their numbers rarely decrease. And the Vampire Lords are also great. Teleportation, life drain, no retaliation, but my only issues that their initiative isn't as high.
Level 5
Best: Hell Charger
These guys are so tough, and they're so freakin fast! When you get the ability to gate them, you can use the gated stack as a road block that can also do massive damage.
Runner Up: Deep Hydra
Insane about of HP, regenerate, hit all squares, no retaliation! The only problem is that they are so freaking slow. :/ What the use of all those great abilities if you can't see them in action?
Level 6
Best: Rakshasa Raja
Hmm, looks like no one like them. They're hardly mentioned anywhere. I used to love the Nagas, but these guys are a decent replacement. They're a bit slow, but the Dash ability makes their initiative double for the next 3 turns! And again, no retaliation!
Runner Up: Paladin
My problem with them is the same as the Grim Riders. To take full advantage of their bonus, you leave them exposed. Other than that, they have lots of life, good attack and defenes, and they can heal.
Level 7
Best: Titans
Um, I don't like to lose units. Especially if they're as freaking expensive as level 7 units are. Due to this reason, I rarely send my level 7 out to attack until the other army is weakened. Now on the other hand, what good are level 7 units if you can't use them? That's why I love the Titans. They shoot! And they're immune to mind spells!
Runner Up: Archangels
Always max damage, can ressurect, what else do you want? Only problem is the one I mentioned above. I don't want to lose them, so I rarely send them out to fight until I'm sure I won't lose any. :/
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silentbobus
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 14, 2006 06:25 PM |
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I have a revised version of my spreadsheet, but I still haven't figured out how I want to post it. Most of the best power per tier ratings are still the same, although I changed my subjective ratings of the units a lot since my last go at it. Playing through the campaigns, I have a good handle on how to use all of the units now (I think)
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mad_elemantle
Hired Hero
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posted August 19, 2006 03:44 PM |
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this my point of view
best:
level 1:assasin poisen
level 2:blood fury powerful and strike and return rocks
level 3:masterhunter wrding arrow
level 4:grim raiders high hp and lizard bite rox(especially with minitor guard)
level 5:chaos hydra regenartion
level 6:ancient treant super high hp
level 7:black dragon(nothing to say)
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 19, 2006 11:31 PM |
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Here is mine:
Lvl 1 : Skeltron Archer is the best. No doubt about it
Lvl 2 : Marksmen is absolutely no. 1! And also it is one of the best creatures in the game... if you consider training.
Lvl 3 : Master Hunter is the most powerfull... Great dmg dealer ! Squire is the most usefull!
Lvl 4 : This is very balanced... at least 4 units competing for the title. I'd choose the Imperial Griffin cause I like Haven, and for Battle Dive, but the others are great too.
Lvl 5 : Nightmare is my chosen one here... ArchLich is great also, but Nightmares are better
Lvl 6 : It's obvious : The Paladin. The HPs are its only weakness, if you can say 100 HP is weakness
Lvl 7 : The Black Dragon is the strongest . And it could be a very strategic unit , having Magic Imunity .
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 20, 2006 12:09 AM |
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TowerLord ... You need to specify - how do you find the Skeleton Archer to be the best level 1 unit "without doubt". In a 1 on 1 situation, who do you think would win - Skeleton Archer or Assassin? Look at the stats: Skeleton A 1, D 2, I 10, H 6, D 1-2 or Assassin: A 4, D 3, I 12, H 14, D 2-4. If you still hold the Skeleton Archer as the best level 1 unit, you either need new glasses or refunding of your school money.  Of course, most usefull is another matter, by to list the Skeleton Archer as the "best level 1 creature" is somewhat misleading.
Btw. do the same math on 1 Blood Fury vs. 1 Marksman ...
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 20, 2006 09:05 AM |
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I take growth into consideration also... The Assassin is the worst lvl 1 in my oppinion. It has a lower growth than many lvl 3s. And the stats are not that impressive.
For the skel archer I also consider the necromancy factor, when i am thinking about thier growth.
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mad_elemantle
Hired Hero
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posted August 20, 2006 10:50 AM |
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the worst:
level 1easent:clearly
level 2:zombie:attack and defence too low
level 3:iron golem:too low speed and inatiative
level 4:subbucus:not bad but the others are better
level 5:geine:hp too low
level 6:shadow witch kay with attck but if an enemy comes,bye bye
level 7:spectarl dragon:lousy in everything as a level 7
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mad_elemantle
Hired Hero
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posted August 20, 2006 11:03 AM |
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useful:
level 1:skeleton archer:if your necromancer just fight to get em(great in large numbers)
level 2:blood fury:early attack
level 3:ghost:miss...miss...miss
level 4:archmage(most useful when u have teleport.Get him to where the enemies lined up....and strike!!!
level 5:archlich:just blow em up
level 6:acient treant:entngle the enemy while you just keep shooting them
level 7:archangle:RESERECTION!!!
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mad_elemantle
Hired Hero
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posted August 20, 2006 11:08 AM |
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if you have i noticed i dont take growth into my views
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DragonLord3000
Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
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posted September 05, 2006 04:09 PM |
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Tier 1:Assasin,good attack,defense,hit points,initiative,all of it!Plus poison
Tier 2:Marksmen,Good damage,must bless them in a battle!
Tier 3:Minotaur guard,Very good hit points,and attack but use them wisely
Tier 4:Succubus Mistress,Annoiyng creatures but very usefull
Tier 5eep Hydra,simply to good in defense and compensates in attack with the six headed attack
Tier 6it Lord,Very usefull any time on the battlefield!!!
Tier 7:Archdevils,Finish a fight quickly by wipping the floor with their adversairies
____________
hot peppers are an ilusion.they do not exist.
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Ambidext
Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
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posted September 21, 2006 10:39 AM |
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I made something like that with notepad for my own personal analysis. But this forum doesn't support margining, so it'll be too tedious to manually organise my table here with spacebars.
But all in all, I think all factions are pretty balanced. Haven's core force probably lies in Marksmen, Squires, Paladins, Priests and Arch Angels. I was really disappointed when my favourite Crusaders were removed. I swore never to play it actually, but then again, they're already uber strong without Crusaders.
I've never played Inferno before but I feel their army of Nightmares, Cerberi, Pit Lords and Familiars a good combo.
Academy seems to be as strong as in H3's Tower. Rakshasas, stupid as they may look, have replaced Naga Queens in terms of battlefield roles and creature statistics.
Necro's strength lies in army that's self-substantial. While Vampire Lords self rejuvenate in battle, skeleton archers serve as a never ending supply of cannon-forders. Archliches do the real damage, while Spectral Dragons target shooters.
Dungeon has always been HoMM's most complete and effective army since the first prequel. They always have a balance of flyers, shooters and walkers. And their creature stats are always one of the best if not the best.
Sylvan's only weakness here probably lies in the fact they need too much wood at the start, from building Hunter Lodges to the Citadel as well as Druid Rings and Unicorn Glades. However in a wood-rich map, they will probably strive with a good balance. Unicorns and Treants go up and take as receive as well as give damage; War Dances move in after the enemies' retaliations have been used, Hunters deal good damage from behind while Green Dragons just make the army a whole lot more effective. Just like Haven and Dungeon, a lv7 flyer is always good to have.
All races have their pros and cons. Some races may be a slight bit stronger than others, but environment, player skills and a few other factors will just change the tidings.
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