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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 14, 2007 09:49 PM |
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And the matrix is pure fiction silly boy, you shouldn't take those movies too serious... :-p
What is fiction? Virtual reality? We already have it.
The point was not the movie, or the "evil agents". The point was that just how 'real' a virtual world can be.. and how 'virtual' a real world can be.. it isn't a difference, but nevermind I see you didn't understand the analogy.
I'll try in the future to include other examples beside movies.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted April 14, 2007 09:53 PM |
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@Ashrah: About proof that God exists, you have it: the stories that you don't believe (about Jesus, etc). Why should God prove to you that He exists? So that the people in the year 2200 won't believe you about this?
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted April 14, 2007 10:05 PM |
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ashrah, is your whole arguement about god not existing because we haven't discovered that he does?
the same could be said about the corpurincus theory, atoms, gravity, electricity and DNA, but they have all been discovered, and now stated as fact. they are just theories, remember, and if a better theory comes along, that is slapped in the textbook and protrayed as fact! and we remember "the discoverers" and forget who thought up the first one.
imagine this, if someone made a theory that gravity was in fact false, and made it better sounding that Newtons theory, it would be taught in schools across the globe, and soon kids will be saying "Isaac Newton, what did he do?"
thats the problem with science, you are always looking for a better answer. wouldn't it be better to stick with the fairy tales, because they offer an explaination to what is going on in the world. to my mind, it would be much more interesting to, rather than hear about how the universe was created by letting off a firework, to hear that the universe was created when "JIM" the creator wassit broke open a chinese fortune cookie, read what was on the scroll, had the waiter fired, transformed into a platypus and used his friend, eric phillips, the local crocodile who dealt with black magic and was a alice cooper fan, created the universe out of old bits of chewing gum, just to prove a point that "JIM" wasn't a stupid name for a wassit... or, indeed, a platypus.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Colonel_here
Adventuring Hero
Descendant of Ghengis Khan
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posted April 14, 2007 10:11 PM |
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the universe was created when "JIM" the creator wassit broke open a chinese fortune cookie, read what was on the scroll, had the waiter fired, transformed into a platypus and used his friend, eric phillips, the local crocodile who dealt with black magic and was a alice cooper fan, created the universe out of old bits of chewing gum, just to prove a point that "JIM" wasn't a stupid name for a wassit... or, indeed, a platypus.
Sounds like a fun story. Add some mysticism to it and you can start a new religion.
____________
"The job of saving the lives of those who are sinking is the task of those who are sinking" - Ostap Bender
"Only a fool fights a battle he knows he can not win" - Ghengiz Khan
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baklava
Honorable
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posted April 14, 2007 10:13 PM |
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The stories about "the god" (sorry baklava I really don't know how I should explane which god I mean with this, just the god everybody is believing in these day.)
Lol it's ok. Btw these days less people are believing in God than ever... ANY God. They just find themselves disappointed and they wonder if it's worth the bother to search for another one...
"Good God is hard to find" - Marilyn Manson...
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted April 15, 2007 04:18 AM |
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@The Death
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However some people have this 'feeling' (no it's not instict), such as myself for example, and truly 'believe' in something (by the way, what do you call 'believe' in something? something that you know is there, like a computer, you know it, or something that you have faith in it, without knowing it 100%?). And should I go deeper, we know as little about science-stuff as about God.. Why are atoms small? Why do they spin? Why are the laws of physics (that we define) that way? Or why is there a God? Or why not?
The idea is, you never know anything at all. So if people believe in God, on a philosophical scale, it's the same thing as believing everything else. The colors, green for example, why is it like that? Or why are we in a virtual world, or why not? I don't think you understand me, but I really don't know how to explain it better.
You're getting a little ahead of yourself. If we start to judge everything on it's reality, we lose connection to our universe itself. We have to keep things in context.
To start doubting the things that we can tell are there with all our senses is to lose your mind. You can accept the possibility that they are not there, but go no further than that.. "Real" is a relative term.
When all evidence and everything we know tells us that something is there, then that can be defined as real. What is 'actually' real is beyond our conception, as you said, but that's irrelevant. Believing in god is NOT the same. The only thing telling us that god exists are other people. And life lesson #1? Don't trust anybody 
Sure, it's possible that we are in a computer simulation, but we cannot possibly tell, and if even if we could, it could not possibly affect us.
However, it is not possible that there is a god.
It's a story, to paraphrase Ashrah.
Now, 100 people will quote this telling me exactly why god CAN exist. But that is because it is a very old story. If I went back 2000 years and made up a story about a... werewolf () for example, and some people firmly believed in it, despite it being impossible and extremely unrealistic. However, if these people were adamant, and passed the story down through generation and generation, while having people accuse and question it the whole time, eventually the story would 'evolve'. It would change. People would say "how come no one else has ever seen the werewolf?" "because he chooses when he wants to be seen." This wasn't in the original story, it was added in to make things more believable.
Soon enough the story starts to shrink. Less and less hard facts, more and more conceptual "semi-realism", as more hard facts come to disprove.
This is what has happened to god. He is wasting away as we discover more and more about our universe, and now there is barely a corner left for him to hide, so to speak.
Do you know what the current story stands at, with religous scientists? That god was merely there to set everything in motion.
That is covered in the first few sentences of the bible, the rest? dismissed as pure fantasy.
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Now let's suppose there is a God.
k
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Why do you have to 'see' him to be confident that he/she/it exists? Why do you need to have radiations in your eyes to actually believe in him? Perhaps that's how you are, and perhaps that's why I'm different, each one is different.
I can understand your point of view, but if god is not something that we can see, hear, touch, taste, smell, or have any reason to know, then he cannot be real in our.. 'relative' terms.
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In fact, from a philosophical point of view, all of us are doing "blind faith". But to put it another way, there is no blind faith, simply because everyone is doing it. You have faith in the fact that there is no God (yes, you believe in that). I have faith that there is a 'creature' that created this world (including Nature) and that's why I'm showing respect.
You don't have to blindly believe that something is not there. That's like saying you have blind faith that there's not a three headed monster sitting on your desk. It doesn't work that way.
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Put it this way: imagine you created genetically some creatures similar to humans, and isolated them on an island (alone, without any human intervention). And you viewed their actions through a sattelite. You'll see them starting wars (since they are 'human-like') between religions, some of them inventing Gods, some of them not believing that someone (you) created them at all (atheists), that they appeared through some weird evolution or anything else, just to explain that they are the supreme creatures that do not need to show any respect to anyone else but themselves and what they perceive. Or some of them who really believe that someone is up there (in this case you), and they should show some respect, or anything like that.
I don't see your point.
What use is trying to see things from gods point of view?
Imagine you are a humanlike creature with fangs which have the ability to draw blood. Your skin is pale, when you walk in the sun you burn severely. You stalk the lands at night, and sneak into peoples houses, murdering them by drinking blood from their veins in order to sustain yourself.
There now you can see from Dracula's point of view.
Besides, they'd all be wrong. The truth would be that I created genetically some creatures similar to humans, and isolated them on an island (alone, without any human intervention), and I am viewing their actions through a sattelite. Which is a reasonable explanation.
God is not.
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Also what is 'time'? Why is it 'flowing'? Why? The fact is that you never know, and you'll never know. But that doesn't mean you can't believe in a 'theory' or have faith in your religious-perceivement of time (this time I'm talking about time, not God).
Time is our perception of increasing entropy.
Maybe.
But I don't worship it, and disregard any hints of any other theory.
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An example (not real): If I believe in a theory about this world (how it was created), I am not doing more blind-faith than you ignoring everything you cannot perceive. Hope you understand it now. Sorry for such a long description, I don' know how to describe it better.
We already talked about your idea of 'blind-faith'. You don't have to believe in things that aren't there. 
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Let's set it another way. Suppose someone offered each one of us another 400 years of living (in an ideal world of ours). What would you do with that?
1) Have fun
2) Have fun and feel well yourself
3) Get wise, understand, and believe in things
4) Get wise, understand and believe in things, and do GOOD and help/respect other things than yourself (this includes not-from-this-world imaginary thoughts)
Personally I would go for 4.
Strange, I would go for 2.
What's the point in knowing stuff if you're not having fun
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Also for anyone who thinks "who created God".. well, there is no "before" God, because God created time and such you cannot even imagine a world without time, or 3D space, or whatever else you see. That's why you can't understand God. Don't get me wrong, no one can understand God. No one can understand anything beside this world with precision. However that does not mean we cannot believe in that or respect it. But that's just me, feel free to think in a different way.
But don't you think that the world was created or 'appeared' with a reason? Why do you ignore this fact until you 'see' it? Being ignorant is the opposite of being wise, if I recall correctly.
You're absolutely right.
God does not ANSWER the question, he merely postpones it. "Why are we here?" "Because of god, duh." "Right. Um.... Why is god there?"
Of course, we can't understand it.
But as Richard Dawkins puts it, god is the 'Ultimate 747', as I said in my essay.
The creationists will argue that world being perfect for supporting life, and that countless species of life are present today, is so inconceivably improbable that it is in fact impossible for there to be any cause other than a divine creator.
A suitable metaphor for this was made by Fred Hoyle, being the image of a Boeing 747 aircraft in a scrap yard. The metaphor is that if a hurricane passed through a scrap metal yard, the chance of it assembling perfectly into a Boeing 747 is so unlikely that it is almost impossible. However, this argument comes as a double edged sword, as was said by Richard Dawkins, a creator god would be, to paraphrase Hoyle’s metaphor, the ‘Ultimate 747’, and even more unlikely to be created than a regular airplane. So while we are unlikely to be here without a creator, a creator is even more unlikely to be here without a creator, which just postpones the problem. 
____________
John says to live above hell.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted April 15, 2007 03:15 PM |
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also the speed at which matter expanded from the singularity, the gravitational constant, the elemental make-up of our planet, the size of our planet, the distance of our planet from the sun, and countless other things
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John says to live above hell.
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Doomforge
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posted April 15, 2007 03:40 PM |
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the size of our planet? Wtf? 
Sun would make a poor god; it's already dying. A bit billions of years and it will die forever And gods are meant to be immortal, ey?
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Vlaad
Admirable
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ghost of the past
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posted April 15, 2007 03:43 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 22:00, 16 Apr 2007.
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RedSoxFan3Quote:
And I'm not Aethiest, if you could call me anything I'm close to Agnostic. And you'll never convince me that God doesn't exist
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God does exist.
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I wish I still believed in God.
Agnosticism implies the knowledge of God is not possible, not the knowledge of your knowledge.
The criticism of agnosticism is rather simple: if you do not believe, an you are an atheist. (My Webster even lists "atheist" as the synonym. ) If you do believe in something, you are a theist. There are other forms in between, but it is said demographic research services count you as an atheist. 
Regarding the meaning of "infidel":
INFIDEL
Etymology: Middle English infidele, from Middle French, from Late Latin infidelis unbelieving, from Latin, unfaithful, from in- + fidelis faithful
1 : one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity
2 : an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion b : one who acknowledges no religious belief
3 : a disbeliever in something specified or understood
So there.
Other matters:Quote:
Also if you think that religion is lacking of wisdom? Then what about all the ethics and morals that it teaches people?
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The 10 Commandments was one of the greatest things that's ever been written even if you don't believe it was from God.
These?
I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
you shall have no other gods before me.
You shall not make for yourself an image, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me
[...]
Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy.
Mods:
Can we quote Freud on religion without being penalized? "Freud spoke of religion as an illusion, he maintained that it is a fantasy structure from which a man must be set free if he is to grow to maturity. Freud views the idea of God as being a version of the father image, and religious belief as at bottom infantile and neurotic." (Wikipedia)
Can we quote the Bible without getting -QP? "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death." Whoa, is that politically correct?
Speaking of which...
What god are we talking about? Christian God?
The same God who slew a man because of coitus interruptus?
7 And Er, Judah's first-born, was wicked in the sight of Jehovah. And Jehovah slew him.
8 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother unto her, and raise up seed to thy brother.
9 And Onan knew that the seed would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest he should give seed to his brother.
10 And the thing which he did was evil in the sight of Jehovah: and he slew him also.
The same God who lied to Adam & Eve: You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, nor shall you touch it, or you shall die.
The self-righteous God?
Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever" therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken. He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
Although, let's not forget: So God created man in his own image...
These are only the thought-provoking ones, nevermind killing all the first-borns and so on.
(TA: Wasn't it Abraham, not Joseph...?)
Oh, well. I guess I should be grateful there are no champions of Biblical inerrancy around. Too bad though, I have some stories about Sodom and Gomorrah starring Lot & his daughters.
OR... Are we talking about God the Creator? If so, let's discuss the argument from poor design...
Ashrah, I don't know the English translation, but the saying goes something like this: If not everybody liked you, that means somebody did.
However, I must agree with the rest of the community. The fact that Christian God and Almighty Zeus are the same thing does not give us the right to insult other members. You will give up militant atheism when you realize it's futile; the reasons atheists don't believe in God are different from the reasons theists do.
I suggest you try to find Alfred Adler's Individual Psychology for further reading.
Anyway, sister, welcome to the Church of the Invisible Pink Unicorn! 
____________
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Doomforge
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posted April 15, 2007 03:48 PM |
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Nice points Vlaad; you should not confuse Genesis with Bible, though; Genesis is much younger than all the old testament, written by [I don't remember correctly, but it has definitely not much in common with the other texts]. Even Christians admit that it's just a fairy tale added to Bible around 12 centuries ago, or so. : O
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted April 15, 2007 04:15 PM |
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@Doomforge:
Quote:
the size of our planet? Wtf?
Gravity?
Attraction to massive objects..
@Vlaad:
Nice post
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RedSoxFan3Quote:
And I'm not Aethiest, if you could call me anything I'm close to Agnostic. And you'll never convince me that God doesn't exist
Quote:
God does exist.
Quote:
I wish I still believed in God.
Agnosticism implies the knowledge of God is not possible, not the knowledge of your knowledge.
The criticism of agnosticism is rather simple: if you do not believe, an you are an atheist. (My Webster even lists "atheist" as the synonym. ) If you do believe in something, you are a theist. There are other forms in between, but it is said demographic research services count you as an atheist.
Agnostic is when you believe that you cannot know whether or not God exists, and for that reason it cannot have any effect on your life, therefore the idea should be dismissed..
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By the way:Quote:
INFIDEL
Etymology: Middle English infidele, from Middle French, from Late Latin infidelis unbelieving, from Latin, unfaithful, from in- + fidelis faithful
1 : one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity
2 : an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion b : one who acknowledges no religious belief
3 : a disbeliever in something specified or understood
So there.
I don't see why infidel is so insulting..
Could be a compliment
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Freud spoke of religion as an illusion, he maintained that it is a fantasy structure from which a man must be set free if he is to grow to maturity.
Freud views the idea of God as being a version of the father image, and religious belief as at bottom infantile and neurotic.
- Wikipedia
Not bad
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What god are we talking about? Christian God?
Actually not specifically christian, as the Old Testament god is kinda the God of Judaism..
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(TA: Wasn't it Abraham, not Joshep...?)
Oh, well. I guess I should be grateful there are no champions of Biblical inerrancy around. Too bad though, I have some stories about Sodom and Gomorrah starring Lot & his daughters.
I was never too good with names... One's married to his sister, one wore the gay flag
And I was going to talk about the story of Sodom in the gay thread but I knew I would get it wrong somehow and someone would quote me saying HAH YOU'RE WRONG
____________
John says to live above hell.
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Consis
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posted April 15, 2007 04:38 PM |
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Vlaad,
I have heard several speeches given by the author of "The God Delusion". He is an interesting orator. Much of what he says makes logical sense. I am not entirely convinced he is accurate though. I am still inclined to look for morality through the idea of an Abrahamic God head. Excellent book though. And I'm surprised to discover you are an atheist.
____________
Roses Are Red And So Am I
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted April 16, 2007 04:10 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 16:13, 16 Apr 2007.
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You're getting a little ahead of yourself. If we start to judge everything on it's reality, we lose connection to our universe itself.
But that was exactly my point. There is no "universe itself" it's just our illusion so to speak (call me a philosophical fanatic )
Quote:
We have to keep things in context.
Context is just something we learnt it to be, whether it is an illusion or not. I was not saying that God is exactly there, but people that say "I know God doesn't exist" are ignorant. Like I said you cannot know much more things than you might think.
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When all evidence and everything we know tells us that something is there, then that can be defined as real.
Well, suppose I saw a monster under my bed, and only I can see him. That's no evidence for you of course, but for me it is. Is it real? well from my point of view, yes. since real is a relative term. (this was only an example).
Let's get to bixie's example. When he talks to 'spirits' Ashrah calls that magic. But he does not. When he sees her that she 'understands' how the Sun works, he probably sees that as magic as well (no offense, it's just an example).. It's all relative. The point is, evidence is just every invidual's imagination and it's relative as I said. Everyone interprets an english proof (or whatever) differently in their minds.
Also for the evidence part, a criminal might be released because of lack of evidence. Same as God, you cannot know for sure he is there. People who believe probably feel this (no one knows exactly what God is, it's beyond our understanding), but me for example feel that there is some 'creature' that made this. Creature does not mean necessarily biological as we see it by the way. Remember that I think it lives in an outer plane, without time and such and even matter itself
Like you said in the first post, "why is there matter at all?".
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The only thing telling us that god exists are other people. And life lesson #1? Don't trust anybody
If we wouldn't trust anybody then we would all be criminals and thieves by now.
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Sure, it's possible that we are in a computer simulation, but we cannot possibly tell, and if even if we could, it could not possibly affect us.
Would it not affect us? In which way? In our lives? Or in our wisdom/knowledge (i.e to know that?). I think it really affects the latter part.
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However, it is not possible that there is a god.
Why?
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But that is because it is a very old story. If I went back 2000 years and made up a story about a... werewolf () for example, and some people firmly believed in it, despite it being impossible and extremely unrealistic.
Well imagine we're in the future where virtual reality expanded upon all our senses (not just keyboards, etc), including pain and hunger. Suppose you put a virtual helmet on, and zaap.. you're in a new world, you don't even know there is an outer world (you can't "move" or get out of the virtual world, because all your hand movements, senses are now controlling your 'character' in the virtual world, so you can't get the helmet out).
Suppose the virtual game has werewolves in. How 'real' are they?
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I can understand your point of view, but if god is not something that we can see, hear, touch, taste, smell, or have any reason to know, then he cannot be real in our.. 'relative' terms.
Yes he can be in our minds.. and possibly in our spirit or soul (if you believe in that of course).
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What use is trying to see things from gods point of view?
Yes
Quote:
Besides, they'd all be wrong. The truth would be that I created genetically some creatures similar to humans, and isolated them on an island (alone, without any human intervention), and I am viewing their actions through a sattelite. Which is a reasonable explanation.
This explanation is not reasonable to them at all, exactly as it is not a reasonable explanation to us. Probably for God it is. See what I'm saying?
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But I don't worship it, and disregard any hints of any other theory.
I never said to worship time. I just said that you can't know a world without it, can you? Same with Heaven -- that's fine if you don't believe in other 'planes' like Hell for example, because it's impossible to imagine much as is a place without time. But that doesn't mean it isn't there. Or that it is there. The things with flames and stuff like that in Hell is just a metaphor for human's understandment.
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Strange, I would go for 2.
That's not strange at all That's perhaps why we're different 
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What's the point in knowing stuff if you're not having fun
What's the point in having fun without getting wise?
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You're absolutely right.
God does not ANSWER the question, he merely postpones it.
How can he answer a question in our language or our understanding? Like I said most stuff are metaphors. You have to feel them, you can't explain to monkeys the concept of a magnetic field, can you? (this by no means suggests that monkeys are inferior to humans, but simply they understand differently. But imagine how someone from a different world would understand. Perhaps a world without time as we know it). You have to use metaphors.
Quote:
The creationists will argue that world being perfect for supporting life, and that countless species of life are present today, is so inconceivably improbable that it is in fact impossible for there to be any cause other than a divine creator.
A suitable metaphor for this was made by Fred Hoyle, being the image of a Boeing 747 aircraft in a scrap yard. The metaphor is that if a hurricane passed through a scrap metal yard, the chance of it assembling perfectly into a Boeing 747 is so unlikely that it is almost impossible. However, this argument comes as a double edged sword, as was said by Richard Dawkins, a creator god would be, to paraphrase Hoyle’s metaphor, the ‘Ultimate 747’, and even more unlikely to be created than a regular airplane. So while we are unlikely to be here without a creator, a creator is even more unlikely to be here without a creator, which just postpones the problem.
Ok, but what happend at 'time=0'?
The first very beginning of the universe? I'm not saying God is really a human who created it with a computer whatever. That's just a metaphor. But something did happen, and is beyond our understanding. So Richard Dawkins had absolutely no way of knowing how likely or unlikely or what did happen at time=0.
To quote Albert Einstein: "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."
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TheDeath
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posted April 16, 2007 08:07 PM |
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Fun means to feel good.
Some people feel good when they entertain themselves (dunno if that's the right word  )
Some people feel good when they get wise.
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baklava
Honorable
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posted April 16, 2007 09:02 PM |
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What's the point of dying wise without having any fun in life.
Well let's take a look on those who just make fun and neglect wisdom and intelligence as much as possible.
Paris Hilton, for example. Would you like to be like her?
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Life is short and without reincarnation and afterlife
Lol I find myself desperately hoping afterlife exists just so I can see the look on your face when you die and go to heaven or more likely hell
I mean, those ARE just fairytales, but what if.
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Many "wise" & "intelligent" people commit suicide because the lack of friends and such...
You should be the first to know that you can have both friends and intelligence. You only need to know where to look.
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Fun is more important in "natural" & "healthy" terms than wisdom and intelligence.
I wonder what do you consider natural fun.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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RedSoxFan3
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posted April 16, 2007 09:40 PM |
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@ Vlaad - No Agnostic is undecided. Agnostic doesn't believe that their is a God, nor does the Agnostic believe that their isn't a God. Aethiests strictly believe that their is no God.
I choose to believe neither, because you really don't know for sure either way.
____________
Go Red Sox!
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Vlaad
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ghost of the past
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posted April 16, 2007 09:54 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 21:54, 16 Apr 2007.
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Quote:
@ Vlaad - No Agnostic is undecided. Agnostic doesn't believe that their is a God, nor does the Agnostic believe that their isn't a God. Aethiests strictly believe that their is no God.
I know the meaning of the word, I was talking about the logic behind it:Quote:
I choose to believe neither, because you really don't know for sure either way.
You wrote God does exist, which is not very agnostic.
____________
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TheDeath
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posted April 16, 2007 09:58 PM |
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Probably that's what he felt at that particular moment.
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TitaniumAlloy
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Legendary Hero
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posted April 17, 2007 11:20 AM |
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@The Death
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But that was exactly my point. There is no "universe itself" it's just our illusion so to speak (call me a philosophical fanatic )
Then there is nothing. Go sit in your void
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Context is just something we learnt it to be, whether it is an illusion or not. I was not saying that God is exactly there, but people that say "I know God doesn't exist" are ignorant. Like I said you cannot know much more things than you might think.
Depends on your definition of knowing.
You seem to think that knowing anything is impossible, which is probably true if you take it literally, but the general term 'to know' is different to that. It's in context.
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Well, suppose I saw a monster under my bed, and only I can see him. That's no evidence for you of course, but for me it is. Is it real? well from my point of view, yes. since real is a relative term. (this was only an example).
You can't see the monster under your bed though.
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Also for the evidence part, a criminal might be released because of lack of evidence. Same as God, you cannot know for sure he is there. People who believe probably feel this (no one knows exactly what God is, it's beyond our understanding), but me for example feel that there is some 'creature' that made this. Creature does not mean necessarily biological as we see it by the way. Remember that I think it lives in an outer plane, without time and such and even matter itself
I don't understand your point.
How does your feelings of a creator relate to someone being charged not guilty, or the existence of matter?
and btw. I know exactly what God is. It's not beyond the comprehension of Athiests God is a story. Made up by a man.
Some people believe this story, and say that it's beyond our comprehension. That doesn't mean that the story is.
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If we wouldn't trust anybody then we would all be criminals and thieves by now.
Are you serious? If you don't trust someone doesn't mean you want to kill them and steal from them, or anyone else for that matter. They aren't linked.
I was joking about the don't trust anyone btw, but still..
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Would it not affect us? In which way? In our lives? Or in our wisdom/knowledge (i.e to know that?). I think it really affects the latter part.
So someone tells you that you are in a computer simulation.
Right, now what.
You can't do anything about it.
All you can do is go on with your life, ie, it hasn't affected you.
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However, it is not possible that there is a god.
Why?
The common sense and logic stated throughout this thread
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Well imagine we're in the future where virtual reality expanded upon all our senses (not just keyboards, etc), including pain and hunger. Suppose you put a virtual helmet on, and zaap.. you're in a new world, you don't even know there is an outer world (you can't "move" or get out of the virtual world, because all your hand movements, senses are now controlling your 'character' in the virtual world, so you can't get the helmet out).
Suppose the virtual game has werewolves in. How 'real' are they?
haha what?
you're leading my lovely metaphor in an entirely different direction to what it was meant..
and you seem to like the idea of a computer simulation. i guess they would be real then, in relative terms. but we aren't in that world.
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Yes he can be in our minds.. and possibly in our spirit or soul (if you believe in that of course).
Minds and spirits do not correlate to the senses.
And theres a word for people who see things in ther minds
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What use is trying to see things from gods point of view?
Yes
Hmm.. it wansn't a yes or no question.
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This explanation is not reasonable to them at all, exactly as it is not a reasonable explanation to us. Probably for God it is. See what I'm saying?
Not at all. How can you situation apply to us? Is the satellite a metaphor for god? In which case it does sound reasonable to them, and to some of us..
I still think you're trying to see things from god's point of view.
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I never said to worship time. I just said that you can't know a world without it, can you? Same with Heaven -- that's fine if you don't believe in other 'planes' like Hell for example, because it's impossible to imagine much as is a place without time. But that doesn't mean it isn't there. Or that it is there. The things with flames and stuff like that in Hell is just a metaphor for human's understandment.
What do you mean?
Ok, we can't picture a world without time. Where are you heading with this? That hell is the human understanding of time?
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What's the point in having fun without getting wise?
'I'd rather be happy than right any day.'
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How can he answer a question in our language or our understanding? Like I said most stuff are metaphors. You have to feel them, you can't explain to monkeys the concept of a magnetic field, can you? (this by no means suggests that monkeys are inferior to humans, but simply they understand differently. But imagine how someone from a different world would understand. Perhaps a world without time as we know it). You have to use metaphors.
nononono
I don't mean god literally comes down and answers the question haha.
I mean if 'god' is the response to the question, the reply does not answer the question.
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Ok, but what happend at 'time=0'?
Irrelevant..
It's a metaphor.
We are unlikely to be here, no?
So people say, oh its obviously because a god created us.
But THAT does not answer the question of of why we are here, BECAUSE god is even more unlikely to be here.
I know you ask about the beginning of time because of the answer 'god created time when he created the universe', which answers the question of 'what was god doing before he created us?' more appropriately than 'making hell for people who ask such questions'
However god creating time doesn't explain why god is there.
To religious people this question, or idea rather, tends to go in one ear and out the other.
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The first very beginning ofthe universe? I'm not saying God is really a human who created it with a computer whatever. That's just a metaphor. But something did happen, and is beyond our understanding. So Richard Dawkins had absolutely no way of knowing how likely or unlikely or what did happen at time=0.
No it is not beyond our understanding.
It is beyond our current information and knowledge.
Given more time and proper tools we could find out exactly what happened.
And you don't need to have been there to know that we are unlikely to be sitting here, and thus God is extremely unlikely to exist.
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Fun means to feel good.
Some people feel good when they entertain themselves (dunno if that's the right word )
Some people feel good when they get wise.
Fun isn't feeling good.
"Some people feel good when they entertain themselves" this is closer.
fun is entertainment and amusement.
you can spend your life trying to find out more, but at the end of it all, it counts for nothing. you'll end up dead anyway. the only consolation is that you enjoyed your time, spending it with family, being happy, having fun. that's all we can do.
@Baklava:
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What's the point of dying wise without having any fun in life.
Well let's take a look on those who just make fun and neglect wisdom and intelligence as much as possible.
Paris Hilton, for example. Would you like to be like her?
Touche.
You choose your bad example, I choose mine.
Would you like to be a professor at a school, who is extremely smart and skilled at maths, but old, and has spent his life studying and learning, becoming wise, but never learnt social skills, lost all his friends in his pursuit of knowledge, never had time for a relationship, and hence, has no family, and in the end kills himself of his misery?
and besides, I'm sure Paris Hilton is pretty happy with herself
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Many "wise" & "intelligent" people commit suicide because the lack of friends and such...
You should be the first to know that you can have both friends and intelligence. You only need to know where to look.
Exactly.
Intelligence is only fun if you do have friends (fun).
Intelligence by itself, is not.
Fun by itself, you'll be just as happy, although outsiders who aren't you, and thus aren't feeling your happiness (lol this sounds so weird) look down on you. But why should you care
Anyway this is off topic and an argument of personal opinion.... lol
not that personal opinion arguments aren't FUN
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John says to live above hell.
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ZombieLord
Promising
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that wants your brainz...
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posted April 17, 2007 12:02 PM |
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You choose your bad example, I choose mine.
Would you like to be a professor at a school, who is extremely smart and skilled at maths, but old, and has spent his life studying and learning, becoming wise, but never learnt social skills, lost all his friends in his pursuit of knowledge, never had time for a relationship, and hence, has no family, and in the end kills himself of his misery?
and besides, I'm sure Paris Hilton is pretty happy with herself
Without us the smart guys, you would commit suicide!
I mean, why you the "only-fun-looking" people (and you don't like to be wise and such) use OUR inventions to make fun? (Cars, cellphones, good built HOUSES, etc etc)
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