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angelito
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posted February 11, 2009 09:08 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 21:09, 11 Feb 2009.
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Science does not have so many answers as some people pretend it does and prevailing scientific theories of the past have been proven wrong.
How many answers does religion have?
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So why does "science" get away with saying "it just happened?"
Why does religion get away with saying "God gave us free will?"
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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baklava
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posted February 11, 2009 09:25 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 21:26, 11 Feb 2009.
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Why does everyone think they'll achieve something by avoiding to answer a question and asking another question instead? 
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Seraphim
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posted February 11, 2009 11:03 PM |
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Scientists have to work hard and to come up with a valid theory about the creation of the Universe (and about other things)..while things are much easier for religion. The Universe was made by a(some) god(s). You might ask : "But wait..who made the god ?". The answer will be..he just was and just is. Why does religion get away with it ?
As opposed to a mysterious explosion coming from absolute nothing with absolutely no cause.
An eternal God makes sense to me. An explosion coming from absolute nothing and with no cause does not. Not to mention inanimate matter beginning to live and change into different creatures for no reason. Science does not have so many answers as some people pretend it does and prevailing scientific theories of the past have been proven wrong.
So why does "science" get away with saying "it just happened?"
And religion answers evrything leaving no room for a normal fucntioning mind.
Religion is opium to the healthy mind while a gift to the narrow mind.
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DagothGares
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posted February 11, 2009 11:15 PM |
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Why does everyone think they'll achieve something by avoiding to answer a question and asking another question instead?
Asking rhetorical questions will not yield answers and thus make you think yourself a smart man who won the debate.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Seraphim
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Knowledge Reaper
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posted February 11, 2009 11:18 PM |
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Why does everyone think they'll achieve something by avoiding to answer a question and asking another question instead?
Asking rhetorical questions will not yield answers and thus make you think yourself a smart man who won the debate.
Jsut as saying that religion answers anything with not a single proof is not smart either
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted February 12, 2009 12:12 AM |
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Many people say that they don't believe in God because the religion lack of answers, that the scientists can't prove anything about the God's existence, that the science resulted in more logical explanations than the religion or that strange overnatural stories take place in the religions story line. I just have one question:
Do you need to have proof for a belief to believe the content?
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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taplo
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 12, 2009 12:23 AM |
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No, so it's just as fine to believe what science haven't proven yet, right?
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Elodin
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posted February 12, 2009 01:49 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 01:50, 12 Feb 2009.
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Science does not have so many answers as some people pretend it does and prevailing scientific theories of the past have been proven wrong.
How many answers does religion have?
Religion has a lot of answers. Evidenly they don't fit into your own religious beliefs. Some people have as much faith in unproven "scientific" ideas as religious people have in God.
Don't say religion doesn't have answers just because you don't like the answers.
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So why does "science" get away with saying "it just happened?"
Why does religion get away with saying "God gave us free will?"
We do have free will. I am free to make whatever decisions I want to. God is not forcing me to do anything. There are consequences if I abuse my free will.
If I abuse alcohol I will destroy my liver. That does not change the fact that I am free to drink as much as I want to. There are just consequences for my actions.
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And religion answers evrything leaving no room for a normal fucntioning mind.
Religion is opium to the healthy mind while a gift to the narrow mind.
Saying religous people have unhealthy minds and are narrow minded is bigotted. You are anti-theist. Fine. That is no different from being racist.
Religion is not a drug. Religion is an attempt to understand and explain God and how we relate to God and the rest of mankind.
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angelito
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posted February 12, 2009 10:40 AM |
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Edited by angelito at 10:41, 12 Feb 2009.
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Religion has a lot of answers. Evidenly they don't fit into your own religious beliefs. Some people have as much faith in unproven "scientific" ideas as religious people have in God.
Harry Potter has many answers too...and many many people all over the world believe in them. Does this make Harry Potter as "true" as the bible or God?
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Don't say religion doesn't have answers just because you don't like the answers.
Don't say Harry Potter's answers are irrelevant only because you don't like them 
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We do have free will. I am free to make whatever decisions I want to. God is not forcing me to do anything. There are consequences if I abuse my free will.
If I abuse alcohol I will destroy my liver. That does not change the fact that I am free to drink as much as I want to. There are just consequences for my actions.
You quite missed the point.
I make it more clear:
- Thousands of babys die every day due to starvation, war, terror, etc...  God is doing nothing about this because: I GAVE YOU FREE WILL! (But how is the baby supposed to handle its own FREE WILL???)
- A man steals an apple.
What a sin!! Die in hell you satan lover! What is next? You will have sex with another woman even though you are married? BLASPHEMY! You should burn in hell for eternity PLUS an additional second!
Exaggeration is sometimes needed to make a point clear enough for people who may look through biased glasses
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DagothGares
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posted February 12, 2009 11:04 AM |
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On a side note
Actually, there are some theologists who think that the lake of fire is the place in which hell is cast... In other words: hell does not exist.
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DagothGares
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posted February 12, 2009 11:06 AM |
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Quote:
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Why does everyone think they'll achieve something by avoiding to answer a question and asking another question instead?
Asking rhetorical questions will not yield answers and thus make you think yourself a smart man who won the debate.
Jsut as saying that religion answers anything with not a single proof is not smart either
Dein point is?
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JollyJoker
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posted February 12, 2009 11:40 AM |
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Religion is an attempt to understand and explain God and how we relate to God and the rest of mankind.
That seems to be a rather, err, strange thing to say. Bold print to point out just one of the strange things in this sentence.
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Elvin
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posted February 12, 2009 11:43 AM |
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Are you guys still arguing science vs religion?
Rubycus had a good point. Do you need to have proof for a belief to believe the content? Believing in something doesn't necessarily mean you take for granted everything about it. Of course you will have some doubts or different opinions about some of its aspects but it's all about the substance of it.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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baklava
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posted February 12, 2009 11:45 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 11:47, 12 Feb 2009.
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Angelito, I know you're not going to listen to any answer from a neutral side, but I'm writing this for the heck of it.
That freedom thing is the biggest problem in understanding religion.
Truth is, God or not, babies die because of the free will of people around them. If God exists, he most probably won't rain pork upon us, since that contradicts the laws of physics and reason that he created in the first place. He seemingly doesn't like to do that. Besides, even if he did, it wouldn't change anything - in some 200 years, people would already think that everyone just made it up and call it all a hoax. God most certainly doesn't want to constantly perform miracles of that kind. What would be the point of his laws then? And what would be the point of faith?
Anyhow, the idea is for us to learn through our own experiences - of course, we as a race are too selfish (which some people don't even consider a bad thing) to understand that we need to help the starving children in any way we can; instead, we are worried about trivial personal things and waste our time on that. That is, of course, a matter of evolution, and hopefully we can change for the better. But that's up to us, not God.
Of course, all this doesn't mean that God automatically exists, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't, either.
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- A man steals an apple.
What a sin!! Die in hell you satan lover! What is next? You will have sex with another woman even though you are married? BLASPHEMY! You should burn in hell for eternity PLUS an additional second!
So um... religion is bad because it condemns stealing and cheating?
Besides, you're not automatically going to hell. There's a thing called "repenting". And by that, I mean sincere repenting, not saying you're repenting (if the Church doesn't make a difference, God does).
(oh and no, Christians do not believe that hell is a place with lava and pitchforks)
@JollyJoker
What's so strange about that sentence you quoted?
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Doomforge
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posted February 12, 2009 12:08 PM |
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oh no, not this discussion again.
Look, science and religion are completely different things, and there aren't meant to counter each other lol. And you all insist on comparing them over and over.
also, science is also based on assumption (infamous dark matter, which is ASSUMED to exist, yet scientist based many theories on existence of dark matter, which may, or may NOT be there lol).
Please, stop it. It's pointless.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 12, 2009 12:49 PM |
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@JollyJoker
What's so strange about that sentence you quoted?
On first look you might think that WE reads as "the individual" and REST OF MANKIND reads "other people".
However, not every Religion is about God - or monotheistic -, and that's giving things a rather strange connotation.
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baklava
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posted February 12, 2009 01:00 PM |
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I don't quite follow.
It says, "how we relate to God and the rest of mankind" meaning how we relate to God and how we relate to the rest of mankind. Since religion preaches both.
What exactly is the problem with the sentence? That it says "God" instead of "gods"? That the word "God" is even used? I don't get it.
Every religion preaches about a higher force and how we relate to it and other people.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JollyJoker
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posted February 12, 2009 01:14 PM |
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I don't quite follow.
It says, "how we relate to God and the rest of mankind" meaning how we relate to God and how we relate to the rest of mankind. Since religion preaches both.
What exactly is the problem with the sentence? That it says "God" instead of "gods"? That the word "God" is even used? I don't get it.
Every religion preaches about a higher force and how we relate to it and other people.
I always thought that postulating the existence of god or gods or a higher being would be part of it - of religion, that is.
Let's see: Spiritism would, then, be the attempt to understand and explain the Ghost and how we relate to it (and by it) to the rest of mankind?
"(and by it)" is implied because religion has obviously nothing to do with how we relate to the rest of mankind - that would be ethic, wouldn't it?
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angelito
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posted February 12, 2009 01:17 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 13:19, 12 Feb 2009.
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Angelito, I know you're not going to listen to any answer from a neutral side, but I'm writing this for the heck of it.
Not sure how you come to that conclusion, but I have yet to find "neutral" answers in this thread, especially if God is included
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That freedom thing is the biggest problem in understanding religion.
This is exactly a main problem for me, because nearly EVERY religious persons explains things as it fits best for HIM/HER. SCIENCE hardly has such a problem. There may come up wrong conclusions, which get edited after years when people found out more and became smarter, but religious on the other hand is never edited, no matter how often you claim wrong things. Mostly you get an asnwer like "You should NOT take that literally!" ...Interesting is, you only get thos answers when a contradiction is found...never before..
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Truth is, God or not, babies die because of the free will of people around them.
Not completely true. It's hard for orange trees to grow as good in a desert as it grows in florida.. So it is mostly a nature problem when people die of starvation. If God would have created the world more balanced, we wouldn't have that much problems. He also made the climate, but we hardly have any tornados, hurricans or tsunamis in germany. But many of those in countries who are pretty poor already (+ USA ) Not sure how FREE WILL is supposed to be the trigger here...
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If God exists, he most probably won't rain pork upon us, since that contradicts the laws of physics and reason that he created in the first place.
There is no pork rain in germany either, but still we rarely have babies who die due to lack of food. explanation see above.
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God most certainly doesn't want to constantly perform miracles of that kind.
He doesn't do ANY miracles as far as I know
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What would be the point of his laws then? And what would be the point of faith?
As explained above, he could do things without breaking HIS laws. And for your second question: Interesting :9 This is what I wonder about for nearly 40 years now and have yet to find an answer. But as the thread title tells: I GAVE UP in believing in God, because it is just time assuming and leads nowhere (imho).
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Anyhow, the idea is for us to learn through our own experiences - of course, we as a race are too selfish (which some people don't even consider a bad thing) to understand that we need to help the starving children in any way we can; instead, we are worried about trivial personal things and waste our time on that. That is, of course, a matter of evolution, and hopefully we can change for the better. But that's up to us, not God.
So who told you about this "idea"? This is an example why I have problems talking (debating) with religious people (or neutral people how they sometimes call themsleves ). You state a theory ("the idea is for us to learn through our own experiences") with an implicitness, as if God in person sat in your bedroom and told you about his plans and motivations. If you would be honest, you would have to state: This is just MY OWN idea how it COULD be meant by a POSSIBLE creator. But you (and 99% of the people who believe in God) do NOT like that. It's like i would say: The moon was created by God because people in earlier times didn't have any lights nor knowledge of making fire, but there had to be done something against all the injuries of the cavemen who went out of their cave by night for peeing and hit their feet on stones and heads on branches. Now let's see who can disprove that theory
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Of course, all this doesn't mean that God automatically exists, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't, either.
Then we are back to the old question: Should I look for an evidence that something does NOT exist, or an evidence for its existance?
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So um... religion is bad because it condemns stealing and cheating?
No, because it does nothing against innocent deaths, but many thing against "sinners". "Proportionality" is the key word here.
How is a baby able to "prove" it is worthy enough to "come to heaven", when it died with age of 2 coz of lack of food? How can it "automatically" go to heaven coz it "did nothing wrong in its life", while another guy who died with age of 107 goes to hell because he had so much time to live as a sinner, while he also did nothing wrong the first 2 years of his life?
My main problem is, if I would believe in something like God or a "creator", I would really like to see him as a righteous dude who gives all the same chances and let them free will and see what they do with their power. But this is just not how it is. How can I have love or good feelings for a God who smiles while millions of beloved people (kids, mothers, fathers etc..) die every day blamelessly? Would you be able to love your mother if you would have to see yourself how she "kills" every little brother and every little sister of yours she gives birth to after a while because she doesn't feed them anymore?
Of course this could be a "lesson" of your mother to teach YOU to share your food with your brothers and sisters, but is this "lesson" worth to let some of them die? ........Proportionality......
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mvassilev
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posted February 12, 2009 02:35 PM |
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I find Christianity (if one follows it to the letter) to be morally wrong, even if one doesn't become a zealous crusader. For one thing, it rejects the senses. But my other objection is that it is completely anti-human. For example, take the whole Sermon on the Mount. It is one of the most despicable things ever written. "Blessed are the meek"? Ugh. "I tell you, Do not resist an evil person". How can any reasonable man follow this?
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