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Doomforge
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posted February 12, 2009 03:00 PM |
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"Blessed are the meek"? Ugh.
Yeah, "blessed are the insolent" would sure be better. 
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"I tell you, Do not resist an evil person". How can any reasonable man follow this?
There is a sense to it. The general idea is that the one who slays monsters usually becomes one of them - with his way of thinking. Thus, "fighting" the evil in the world is futile.
I don't say it's the truth. just the way I understand it.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 12, 2009 03:04 PM |
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It means basically, at least this is my interpretation, that you shall fight violence not with violence.
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Doomforge
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posted February 12, 2009 03:07 PM |
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Exactly my thought as well.
And why is it bad, mvass? Don't you think - leaving religion aside for a second - that "violent approach" towards violence gives nothing but reducing us to the bad guy's level? Even by common sense.
I think yes. That's why I am against death penalty, for instance. It serves no purpose but vengeance, and vengeance is imho pointless.
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mvassilev
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posted February 12, 2009 03:17 PM |
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Yeah, "blessed are the insolent" would sure be better.
How about "blessed are the bold"?
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Don't you think - leaving religion aside for a second - that "violent approach" towards violence gives nothing but reducing us to the bad guy's level?
No, not at all. If someone aggresses against you, you (or, rather, the government) should do the same thing back - and you (or the government) won't be "as bad as him", because of the reason you're doing it. He did it for some evil reason, while you are merely doing it to punish him. Nothing bad about that.
How many people would shoot someone if they knew 100% that they would be shot immediately if they did that?
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Doomforge
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posted February 12, 2009 03:25 PM |
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How about "blessed are the bold"?
"meek" doesn't mean you have to be a wuss. Also, meek person can be bold. He just doesn't boast about himself, isn't full of himself, that's all. Again, just my interpretation of the word "meek". The word is controversial. You can think it means you should be a wuss, and it makes no sense then, I agree. I think differently, though.
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No, not at all. If someone aggresses against you, you (or, rather, the government) should do the same thing back
Which kinda puts you at his level. He tortures you, you torture him. Reasons? bah. You still do it.
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He did it for some evil reason, while you are merely doing it to punish him. Nothing bad about that.
But what is the _point_ to punish him. So you will feel better? Improve your ego? He won't learn. The very IDEA of punishment is to teach someone something the HARD way. But people who kill and torture are irreparable anyway. It's a waste of time, reducing the punishment to a mere vengeance.
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How many people would shoot someone if they knew 100% that they would be shot immediately if they did that?
It has been proved wrong in your country, mate. The fact Americans allowed death penalty DIDN'T reduce the amount of murders, rapes and so on. It was a good lesson.
Psychology. Psychopaths do NOT consider getting caught, thus, no vision of punishment will stop them. I read a nice book about it - psychopathic behavior, I mean. And it's the problem.
Not that somebody killed someone by accident and gets electrocuted.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 12, 2009 03:36 PM |
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Don't forget that this is all about the PERSONAL level. If YOU are violated YOU shouldn't violate back, which translates to, leave it to the authorities.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted February 12, 2009 04:03 PM |
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*snorts*
yes, cause God (who according to christians is the ultimate authority) always knows best...
like in the case of Elisha and some kids calling him bald (i assume he was) ...and i quote:
"2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them."
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DeadMan
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posted February 12, 2009 04:07 PM |
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Don't mess with bald people. It's that simple.
(Why else do you think I picked a bald avatar? )
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TheDeath
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posted February 12, 2009 04:37 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 16:53, 12 Feb 2009.
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@angelito:Quote:
If God would have created the world more balanced, we wouldn't have that much problems.
More balanced? Well sorry if you'll also consider that if WE go to the Moon, and blame God because it didn't made it very hospitable a "good" thing by any sense of the word (even if you believe in Got 'hate Him' for this reason)...
Did God force us to go there in the first place?
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He doesn't do ANY miracles as far as I know 
I didn't meet Einstein but read some stuff about him. Not sure if it was from the Bible or some other book. 
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How is a baby able to "prove" it is worthy enough to "come to heaven", when it died with age of 2 coz of lack of food? How can it "automatically" go to heaven coz it "did nothing wrong in its life", while another guy who died with age of 107 goes to hell because he had so much time to live as a sinner, while he also did nothing wrong the first 2 years of his life?
My main problem is, if I would believe in something like God or a "creator", I would really like to see him as a righteous dude who gives all the same chances and let them free will and see what they do with their power. But this is just not how it is. How can I have love or good feelings for a God who smiles while millions of beloved people (kids, mothers, fathers etc..) die every day blamelessly? Would you be able to love your mother if you would have to see yourself how she "kills" every little brother and every little sister of yours she gives birth to after a while because she doesn't feed them anymore?
But picture it from the "sinner" point of view. Suppose you are evil. By that logic, everyone would be 'protected' hence no one would be able to kill each other. Is that a good thing? It depends, because it also takes away all freedom.
I mean seriously, how many kids are actually blaming and HATING their parents? Those overly-protective or those who let them do what they want? 
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No, not at all. If someone aggresses against you, you (or, rather, the government) should do the same thing back - and you (or the government) won't be "as bad as him", because of the reason you're doing it. He did it for some evil reason, while you are merely doing it to punish him. Nothing bad about that.
How many people would shoot someone if they knew 100% that they would be shot immediately if they did that?
How do you think wars are STARTED? BOTH think they are "defending themselves" or doing "the right thing" in most cases 
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Doomforge
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posted February 12, 2009 04:50 PM |
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That is unfortunately true. The more people are like don't-****-with-us, the harder is for them to come to any agreement. And if it becomes global, it gets nasty. Dirty.
So going "meek" may be actually good, you see Again, not wussy. Wuss = bad.
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Elodin
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posted February 12, 2009 05:44 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 17:48, 12 Feb 2009.
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Don't say religion doesn't have answers just because you don't like the answers.
Don't say Harry Potter's answers are irrelevant only because you don't like them
Harry Potter is a work of fiction. The author does not claim to be divinely inspired or to be writing anything other than an entertaining fictional book. Equating the Bible with Harry Potter only shows you are not ready to honestly discuss religion.
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You quite missed the point.
I make it more clear:
- Thousands of babys die every day due to starvation, war, terror, etc... God is doing nothing about this because: I GAVE YOU FREE WILL! (But how is the baby supposed to handle its own FREE WILL???)
- A man steals an apple.
What a sin!! Die in hell you satan lover! What is next? You will have sex with another woman even though you are married? BLASPHEMY! You should burn in hell for eternity PLUS an additional second!
Exaggeration is sometimes needed to make a point clear enough for people who may look through biased glasses
Babies dying of starvation are usually the result of someone abusing their free will. Parents leaving their babies to starve in the crib. Selfish tyrants greedily hoarding goods to themselves. Those who have enough to help others but who selfishly refue to do so.
Terrorism is another example of free will abuse.
Yes, theft is sin. You don't have the right to what someone else owns. And you should look in the mirror when you speak of bias. We all see things through the filter of what we believe to be true and must make an effort to take off our glasses.
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Religion is an attempt to understand and explain God and how we relate to God and the rest of mankind.
That seems to be a rather, err, strange thing to say. Bold print to point out just one of the strange things in this sentence.
What I mean was how we as human beings relate to God and to each other. How is it strange to say that religion not only involves our relationship with God but with mankind also?
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No, because it does nothing against innocent deaths, but many thing against "sinners".
That is untrue. Christians and others protest agians babies being murdered by abortion and against other social injustices.
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How is a baby able to "prove" it is worthy enough to "come to heaven", when it died with age of 2 coz of lack of food?
Nobody is "worthy" of going to heaven on their own merits. Infants have not sinned (they are incapable of knowing good from evil; Isaiah 7:15.) Mark 10:14 says Jesus receives children.
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How can it "automatically" go to heaven coz it "did nothing wrong in its life", while another guy who died with age of 107 goes to hell because he had so much time to live as a sinner, while he also did nothing wrong the first 2 years of his life?
That person could have repented of his sins. He is the one who chose to sin.
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How can I have love or good feelings for a God who smiles while millions of beloved people (kids, mothers, fathers etc..) die every day blamelessly?
God tells us to treat each person with love but he has not made us puppets. You are free to kill babies if you want to but God said not to do it. When you stand before God you will answer for you deeds.
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I find Christianity (if one follows it to the letter) to be morally wrong, even if one doesn't become a zealous crusader. For one thing, it rejects the senses. But my other objection is that it is completely anti-human. For example, take the whole Sermon on the Mount. It is one of the most despicable things ever written. "Blessed are the meek"? Ugh. "I tell you, Do not resist an evil person". How can any reasonable man follow this?
So you find treating others with love to be "anti-human?"
Mat 5:44
(44) But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
When possible we should avoid violence and try to reconsile with others. Peace is desirable and more pleasant than endless confrontations.
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yes, cause God (who according to christians is the ultimate authority) always knows best...
like in the case of Elisha and some kids calling him bald (i assume he was) ...and i quote:
The Bible was not written in English. The original words taken with the context of the passage indicate the "children" were around young men, not children. They were making fun of the story of the previous prophet being taken to heaven and ridiculing God and the prophet of God (God's repersentative on earth.) The penalty for blasphemy was death in Israel. And God judged them. They were not engaged in innocent teasing but deliberate scorning and blasphemy.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted February 12, 2009 06:10 PM |
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*blinks*
lets assume for a second that it is so, do you think its right for 42 young men to die because they were calling someone names?
and i really can't understand christians that say "if not for religion, what stops you from killing/stealing/etc?" ...if you don't "sin" because of fear or because you want to be rewarded in the afterlife, then you are morally bankrupt to begin with
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TheDeath
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posted February 12, 2009 06:13 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 18:15, 12 Feb 2009.
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- A man steals an apple.
 What a sin!! Die in hell you satan lover!
An "apple"? Is this thread so worthless?
Because I explained these things like a hundred times (ok not really). Of course -- doesn't mean God exists, but don't use a wrong view of the whole thing as argument.
The apple was from the Tree of Knowledge. Who told them to eat it? (the snake I presume) but he did not FORCE them. They decided to "have some knowledge" cause, you know, they lusted for it.
By the way, the cause of this is twofold. First is mankind's greed over knowledge. Second is that Adam tried to "hide" (i.e be devious) from God, and not acknowledging of eating the apple. Unless you don't know, it's a hell lot easier to forgive someone who acknowledges what he has done than someone who denies (even if you know, but want to "try him and see what he says" by claiming you don't, you know, like most parents do, not sure the expression in english...).
In case you haven't noticed, PAIN and SUFFERING are knowledge too, and what better way to know them than through experience? Death is as well. So you feel them. Plain and simple. The whole "story" there is just a symbolic representation of mankind, of humans as a whole, because we want knowledge. With knowledge, however, comes responsibility (unlike the deviousness above), and with good things in knowledge come bad things as well. Don't say we didn't ask for it
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lets assume for a second that it is so, do you think its right for 42 young men to die because they were calling someone names?
Is this supposed to be a rhetorical question, because obviously if we don't follow the Bible, then this question is subjective and will vary from person to person...
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angelito
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posted February 12, 2009 06:18 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 18:22, 12 Feb 2009.
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Harry Potter is a work of fiction.
Same as the bible is...for all atheists for example
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Equating the Bible with Harry Potter only shows you are not ready to honestly discuss religion.
If you leave out your arrogance here, we can easily discuss that topic. But this is again an example of the attitude many religious people have.
You just have to accept, many people don't believe anything written in the bible, therefore it is fiction or a compilation of fairy tales for them. Only because someone thinks a thing is not for real, doesn't automatically mean he is not able to talk about it. Religous people should start to accept different opinions and not act like the crusaders in the middle ages.
As long as YOU do not accept this, you may not be able to discuss religion, but only state and repeat those fairy tales written in the bible.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted February 12, 2009 06:20 PM |
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...i rest my case
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]Is this supposed to be a rhetorical question, because obviously if we don't follow the Bible, then this question is subjective and will vary from person to person...
...you think such a question should have a subjective answer... and you still claim to have the moral high ground because of your religion?
now, THAT is a rhetorical question
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angelito
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posted February 12, 2009 06:21 PM |
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@angelito:Quote:
If God would have created the world more balanced, we wouldn't have that much problems.
More balanced? Well sorry if you'll also consider that if WE go to the Moon, and blame God because it didn't made it very hospitable a "good" thing by any sense of the word (even if you believe in Got 'hate Him' for this reason)...
Did God force us to go there in the first place?
As usual 
OK...to make it more clear: Of course I meant the PLANET EARTH with the word "world", and not the entire universe. I thought this was obvious... Or how many babies are born on the Jupiter up to now?
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TheDeath
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posted February 12, 2009 06:21 PM |
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Who said anything about "moral ground"?
Ask a psycho or Hannibal Lecter what he thinks.
What makes you special in this regard? At worst, you imply you are better than him, somehow (WITHOUT taking religion into account), or that you have "higher moral standards" or somesuch, which leads to arrogance
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rubycus
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posted February 12, 2009 07:08 PM |
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Edited by rubycus at 19:12, 12 Feb 2009.
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So it is mostly a nature problem when people die of starvation. If God would have created the world more balanced, we wouldn't have that much problems. He also made the climate, but we hardly have any tornados, hurricans or tsunamis in germany. But many of those in countries who are pretty poor already (+ USA ) Not sure how FREE WILL is supposed to be the trigger here...
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There is no pork rain in germany either, but still we rarely have babies who die due to lack of food. explanation see above.
About the lack of food issue i think the only one to blame is the human race. You see, God gave us free will. And God can't mess with the free will. The free will of men led to wars, colonization, oppression, jealousy, treachery and selfishness, and the history of the world we all know very well.
Free willlust of powerwarscolonizationoppressionlack of food...
This might be an easy way to put it, and it might not always be right, but this is a main part of our history.
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God most certainly doesn't want to constantly perform miracles of that kind.
He doesn't do ANY miracles as far as I know
I was on a journey with a team once, and we experienced what I would call a miracle. A blind women got her vision/sight back! This is true. You choose if you believe it or not.
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So um... religion is bad because it condemns stealing and cheating?
No, because it does nothing against innocent deaths, but many thing against "sinners". "Proportionality" is the key word here.
How is a baby able to "prove" it is worthy enough to "come to heaven", when it died with age of 2 coz of lack of food? How can it "automatically" go to heaven coz it "did nothing wrong in its life", while another guy who died with age of 107 goes to hell because he had so much time to live as a sinner, while he also did nothing wrong the first 2 years of his life?
There are something you don't understand here. First there's a big difference between a 2 year old and a 107 year old. Babies don't have free will, or they have but are unable to "use" it -until a certain age, when they realise they can decide their actions. That's, I think, why all dead babies go to heaven, because they haven't had the chance to make up their mind. But a 107 year old has had plenty of time to make up his mind. Once you turn the age when you can make your own desicions, your baby age means nothing of cource... And remember there are other forces in this world as well (the devil)
And as for why goes to heaven and who doesn't you're completely wrong, as most others. Eventually your good or bad actions means nothing to the lord. Here's Gods deal (clearly stated in the Bible):
"The ones who believe that Jesus Christ is Gods son, born to earth through virgin Mary, that he was crucified on the cross and that he rose on the third day shall be saved (meaning you will come to heaven)" So what matters is if you have a belief in Jesus Christ. Surpisingly many people think they will come to heaven after death, just for doing good, going to church once a year or reading the Bible once in a while. According to the Bible that's wrong!
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My main problem is, if I would believe in something like God or a "creator", I would really like to see him as a righteous dude who gives all the same chances and let them free will and see what they do with their power. But this is just not how it is. How can I have love or good feelings for a God who smiles while millions of beloved people (kids, mothers, fathers etc..) die every day blamelessly?
God does not smile when someone die. In fact he is really sad. But what can he do? He can't just resurrect them and hope for happiness and joy... God is righteous, it just doesn't seem like it. I agree, it is not easy to understand why thousands of people die every day, as a result of injuctice (human made injuctice). Remember, God gave us the free will, and there are other forces in the world trying to sabotage Gods plan... so what you are seeing in the world today is the result of the human free will. As long as God can't do anything about the free will he can't do much...except answering prayers etc.
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Seraphim
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posted February 12, 2009 11:42 PM |
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As far as i know,religions does not prohibit drugs.If this is true than how can it be a guide for life?
Religion does not prohibit killing for the sake of (insert god name here) either.
I wanted to say that religion is "OK" but the attampts of religion to influence my mind,my decisions and my will is the bad thing there and that it is senseless trying to change someones world view unless he is in need.
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TheDeath
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posted February 12, 2009 11:48 PM |
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usual
OK...to make it more clear: Of course I meant the PLANET EARTH with the word "world", and not the entire universe. I thought this was obvious... Or how many babies are born on the Jupiter up to now?
Of course you didn't get the analogy
I thought they are crystal clear and pretty obvious. Replace "moon" with whatever place on Earth you want. You can even use Antarctica if you want (but obviously not limited to, why do I have to detail all possible examples, I thought it was pretty obvious where it is going...).
Such a Bastard God/Alien/whoever (let's just say someone) because we wanted to go into the bear's cave and got eaten! (replace "bear" with "natural disaster"; seems like I have to put this explicitly otherwise you don't get it)
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