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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 03:27 PM |
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As for DP and crime - you'll notice that poverty has a correlation with crime, and that the states with DP are the poorer ones. And the richer states don't have DP. And the crime rates between them are roughly the same. So I say the DP is working.
That sounds like a workable concept. Let's just declare being poor a capital offense and then DP them, that should kill two birds with one stone for a double reduction of the crime rate.
You may try to compare crime rates within the US and correlate them with capital punishment or lack thereof.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted February 13, 2009 04:13 PM |
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I have a different problem with Christian religion:
The father of Jesus Christ isn't meeting humanitarian standards. Simple as that. First of all he starts off with a chosen people which is like there were two different sorts of humans would exist. If there's only one god and if he made all people - why does he care especially for one tribe of them?
You misunderstand. They were chosen to be a nation of priests to bring the knowledge of God to the rest of the world and to live a holy life to be an example for mankind. Also through them God would become the Messiah to die for the world's sins.
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
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I mean, somehow that was Cain's problem as well, wasn't it?
Cains' problem was he disrespected God and refused to sacrifice the way God said to. He wanted to do things his own way and God mad that God didn't bless the way he did things. And he murdered his brother out of jealousy.
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Why does he get involved in human business, helping his "chosen people" from slavery in Egypt? What about the others? Doesn't he care? Obviously his chosen people ain't better than the rest, in fact you might say EVEN THOUGH they are on speaking terms with their god they seem to be ESPECIALLY wily and break his laws constantly.
God had specific plan to bless the world through a particular people. In delivering the nation of Israel from Egypt he showed Egypt who the true God is and that their gods were false gods. And in case you have not read all of the Old Testament he chastised the Isrealites when they forsook the principles he gave to them.
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And there are lots of standards, laws and stuff that are abhorrent - I basically wouldn't want to live as a human under his "rule" or in a state ruled after his laws. Old Jahve is not a pleasant or gentle type of god, and, frankly, he's a god I don't see any reason bowing for EXCEPT his power or might which is not even a reason to bow before a human except for brute force, not to mention a god who should not JUST be more powerful than a human being. If the humans are his children, he just should be a bit more loving, caring and understanding.
You mean like love your neighbor as youself? Yes, that is a loathsome concept indeed..
Lev 19:18
(18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
It should also be noted that no one was forced to live in the nation of Israel. If you did not want to be a part of the nation you could surely leave. All Isrealites took a vow to obey the covenant and repeated the blessings and curses for keeping and breaking the Law. So they all knew the Law and no one had any excuse to say he was ignorant of what God required.
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Now for Christ - in the end "the rest of the world" still feels like an afterthought to me. Somehow I can't shake the feeling that Christ was simply a reformer of Jewish religion, in some ways a Jewish Luther, if you want to.
But you have missed much in the Bible that says otherwise. It was stated in Genesis that God would bless the whole world throug the coming Messiah and various prophets throughout history said the same.
Gen 28:14
(14) And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Christianity is in fact a "reformed" Judaism. It is Judaism under the New Covenant.
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Moreover, the Council of Nicaea and the involvement of Emperor Constantin as the most powerful man of that time makes it extremely likely that the Bible has been changed to better fit his purposes:
That is not true. The Bible was not changed. I do agree that some non Biblical doctrines began to be put forward as truth and Christians who opposed those doctrines were put to death or exiled.
http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Integ/B-0701.htm
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On the average, Old Testament documents yield about one variation per page of text; New Testament manuscripts yield only a tenth of one percent variance. In other words, 99.9% of those manuscripts are in perfect agreement.
Though an occasional scribe altered a text to be copied, the resulting deviant copy constitutes only an infrequent departure from the plethora of copies available for corroborating comparison. Even as later copyists unknowingly passed on certain aberrations, appeals to still earlier or more reliable documents still preserve the original message.
Thanks to textual criticism and on-going archaeological discoveries, even as time passes far beyond the date of the original writings, we may be confident that the Bible of today is a fully trustworthy duplication of the original autographs.
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The bottom line is, while Jesus would be a person I could follow, provided I forget the problems with the lore, his father is another case altogether - however, somehow I can't avoid him, can I? What happened anyway with him and his iron rule?
You have misconception of who Jesus is. Jesus is God himself existing as a man, not a junior god.
Isa 9:6
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
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You have to show me where I said Harry Potter is a religious work. I just made a comparison between 2 books which are read by millions of people and those millions really believe what is stated there. And therefore the question: What makes the bible more real than Harry Potter?
And btw, I am no Ahteist, I am an agnostic. I'm honest enough to say "I do not know if something like God exists...but I do not care". So I can't be wrong, cause I have no statement. I have my statement about religion, yes. But not about God or an creator.
You stated religion has no answers. I said yes it does but you don't like them. You then said:
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Harry Potter has many answers too...and many many people all over the world believe in them. Does this make Harry Potter as "true" as the bible or God?
So yes, you were putting Harry Potter on equal footing with the Bible as a religious text.
It is a strange thing to say "I don't care if God exists or not." That would seem to be a very important thing to care about.
Furthur, you posts do not seem to me to relect agnostism. Your posts seem to be antagonistic towards religion, not to indicate that you don't know if God exists or not.
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Satan was originally "the adversary" and was not related to either fallen angels or the snake in the garden
oh and according to the Book of Job, God just smacked him around because he felt like it
Satan is stated to be the snake and a fallen angel. Satan an Lucifer are one and the same. Lucifer is what he was called before he sinned. When he sinned he became known as Satan, an advasary of God.
And the book of Job says Satan smacked Job around, not God. God placed limitations on what Satan was allowed to do.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted February 13, 2009 04:36 PM |
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You stated religion has no answers. I said yes it does but you don't like them. You then said:
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Harry Potter has many answers too...and many many people all over the world believe in them. Does this make Harry Potter as "true" as the bible or God?
So yes, you were putting Harry Potter on equal footing with the Bible as a religious text.
Everyone is free to interpret phrases so they fit him best of course...
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It is a strange thing to say "I don't care if God exists or not." That would seem to be a very important thing to care about.
Strange only for religious hardliners. For me it is pretty normal. Mankind thinks about God for thousands of years now and isn't ONE step further. So you can estimate yourself how many lives and time have been wasted so far by reaching nothing. I don't feel like going the same way. I have FREE WILL ( ), so I have choosen a different way to form my life 
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted February 13, 2009 05:08 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 17:20, 13 Feb 2009.
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Why do people who do not believe in a religion or god get to hell?
The free will is obscured,so as long as someone does not sin then why must he go and burn in hell for that matter?
Is free will now a sin?Imho it does look like.
Can any religious here tell me why you do respect correct free will but then act like a hypocrite if someone does not have a god but still he/she is vigilant or hedonistic and does not harm others?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 13, 2009 05:20 PM |
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No. Free Will gets you to choose. Of course, you mostly Sin. Hypothetically, Heaven isn't "auto-magically" happy or full of bliss or whatever. It is because it is full of "pure" (no sins that is) people in there. When you sin, and you know that (whether you believe that it's true or not is a different matter though), it's like telling God "you know, I have a free will, and chose not YOUR way" or somesuch. If you keep on that and don't feel bad or remorse about it, eventually He'll grant your wish -- you don't want Him (and His "ways"), then what are you supposed to do in Heaven?
It's like a clean house: the house isn't magically clean, but because you exclude all the dirty stuff. Or like a "perfectly healthy" house. It's not that it is more healthy than others automagically through some mysterious power/cure, but because it excludes the sick. (so to speak).
Only that here, it's YOUR choice to be excluded. After all, if He didn't give you this choice, you wouldn't be free...
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I speak german fluently, a bit english, french and spain, but I have NO clue what language your post is written. If anyone did understand, maybe cares to elaborate.
I even had the idea you wanted to reply to a different thread and posted here by mistake...
Ok let me give you something to think about
Once upon a time, there was a period when much of our cities, nations, villages, etc... didn't really exist. How can something that doesn't exist get devastated? Unless we actually wanted to build them, but then, no one forced us...
(in case it isn't obvious, take my Moon analogy: there is no human or "city" on the Moon, so if something terrible happens there, no problem; if something terrible happens when we're there, no problem as well, we are to blame).
Also, what about the dreaded 'artificial' Global Warming? Is that also God's bastardry? (or alien's bastardry, or whoever is there, let's just say someone).
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted February 13, 2009 05:47 PM |
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Edited by Totoro at 17:48, 13 Feb 2009.
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I'm sure you can some up with more platitudes, if you try.
Your arrogance will be your destruction.
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I said the first 3 or 4, depending on how you count them (which is different depedning on whether you are Jewish or Roman-Catholic or Orthodox and so on, but your answer shows, that for you it's the first 3, so commandment 1, 2 and 3.
You shall have no other gods before me, You shall not make for yourself an idol, You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God?
I think these are just to strenghten your belief in God and other commandments.
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Why would I? I'll either understand automatically and by default - after this life - or I will never understand. In both cases I don't need to now.
The more you build up your assessments about everything in life the better you survive.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted February 13, 2009 05:56 PM |
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Why do people who do not believe in a religion or god get to hell?
They don't... Unless, of course, you think Dante's inferno is what modern-day christianity is all about.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 05:58 PM |
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Yes, in Christianity, there is no "hell". It's been added in Middle Ages.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 06:03 PM |
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And the book of Job says Satan smacked Job around, not God. God placed limitations on what Satan was allowed to do.
Ah, you are right, that's the way it was. Satan could not kill Job at the time he was lacking faith, because it was God "walked him through" these series of trials. So devil actually smacked Job, and God allowed it to a certain point in order to make him stronger in the end.
But there's one thing that troubles me: since other believers, Jobs friends, we're trying to open Job's eyes to see that God isn't evil, in the end God said to Job something like this: "pray for them , since they have spoken against me".
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 07:31 PM |
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You misunderstand. They were chosen to be a nation of priests to bring the knowledge of God to the rest of the world and to live a holy life to be an example for mankind. Also through them God would become the Messiah to die for the world's sins.
Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
"To bring the knowledge of God to the rest of the world" and the following sentence is your interpretation. The wuote doesn't say anything about it.
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I mean, somehow that was Cain's problem as well, wasn't it?
Cains' problem was he disrespected God and refused to sacrifice the way God said to. He wanted to do things his own way and God mad that God didn't bless the way he did things. And he murdered his brother out of jealousy.
Genesis 4:2-5: "And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto Jehovah. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And Jehovah had respect unto Abel and to his offering: but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect."
Yes, well done, god.
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God had specific plan to bless the world through a particular people. In delivering the nation of Israel from Egypt he showed Egypt who the true God is and that their gods were false gods. And in case you have not read all of the Old Testament he chastised the Isrealites when they forsook the principles he gave to them.
If indeed he had that plan (how do you know, by the way), it didn't work. Ah, but about chastising, that's of coues a buseiness he understands.
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You mean like love your neighbor as youself? Yes, that is a loathsome concept indeed..
Lev 19:18
(18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
It should also be noted that no one was forced to live in the nation of Israel. If you did not want to be a part of the nation you could surely leave. All Isrealites took a vow to obey the covenant and repeated the blessings and curses for keeping and breaking the Law. So they all knew the Law and no one had any excuse to say he was ignorant of what God required.
Except for the slaves, of course. But then, they were neither neighbors nor part of the people - but neither were they Martians. Yes, god really cared for all the people.
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But you have missed much in the Bible that says otherwise. It was stated in Genesis that God would bless the whole world throug the coming Messiah and various prophets throughout history said the same.
Gen 28:14
(14) And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
That's a dream of Jacob's, and it cannot be of the Messiah, since god just says "in thee and in thy seed", which would mean the whole "clan" of Jacob, not a single person. This is certainly debatable.
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Christianity is in fact a "reformed" Judaism. It is Judaism under the New Covenant.
The Jews seem to think otherwise.
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Moreover, the Council of Nicaea and the involvement of Emperor Constantin as the most powerful man of that time makes it extremely likely that the Bible has been changed to better fit his purposes:
That is not true. The Bible was not changed.
You must say that. But we cannot check it anymore.
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You have misconception of who Jesus is. Jesus is God himself existing as a man, not a junior god.
There are other interpretaions.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted February 13, 2009 07:39 PM |
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Angelito, following the evolution theory, the first humans came from some lusher parts of Africa if I remember correctly. So we came to be in a climate that fit us better. Or at least that's one of the theories.
Whatever the case, we didn't suddenly appear everywhere on the planet - for example, we couldn't be found in the frosty, northern lands before we evolved and migrated there. As well as everywhere else. Because even the most primitive man felt the urge to spread, and he had a period of thousands and thousands of years to settle different parts of the planet.
And a Bible freak could tell you that we were spawned in the Garden of Eden in the first place
So I don't think God's to blame for deserts. And on a more ironic note, after all, just look at the Holy Land out there in the Middle East... Everyone thinks that piece of blood-soaked desert is their God's gift to them.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted February 13, 2009 08:36 PM |
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Edited by rubycus at 23:56, 13 Feb 2009.
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Could you elaborate where you have your "facts" from?
@Angelito: I try to answer your questions from the texts of the Bible. It is all written in the Bible.
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- How you know God is sad when those people die?
It sais in the Bible that God loves us, and therefore he would be sad if we die. You probably love your parents, and you'd be rather sad if they died. Love for something = grief if you loose it.
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- Baby don't have free will (Is it written in the bible you get your free will on your 8th birthday???)
No it is not written in the Bible that children get their free will at the age of eight, but I tried to describe the baby-free-will issue. I really don't know very much about it, but I think we agree on that babies don't have the same level of free will as grown ups have... Babies can't choose their actions as grown ups... Maybe I was a bit fast in my writing, but what I mean is that I think babies have a free will, but are unable to use it until they are mentally old enough. Did I make myself clear?
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- There are other forces (devil)?
I said this statement out of a christian wiev. You might choose not to believve it. If you read the Bible you can't miss Satan...
I have a question for you guys. I'll explain the story:
"I was once on a journey with a group of people. One day we went to this house were an old lady lives. We talked to her, and she said she was blind. So we asked her if we could pray for her. She said yes. So we prayed for her blindness. And after the prayer she said she could see a little sunlight.
Another group prayer for another blind women. She acctually got her full vision back. "
I am telling the truth here. If you choose not to believe my words, then that's fine.
My question is: How would you explain people getting their vision back by prayer, if there's no God?
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A prudent question is one-half of wisdom.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 10:45 PM |
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Your arrogance will be your destruction.
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You shall have no other gods before me, You shall not make for yourself an idol, You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God?
I think these are just to strenghten your belief in God and other commandments.
Yeah, so? I break the first three commandments an keep 4-10. Bad for sosciety?
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The more you build up your assessments about everything in life the better you survive.
I don't think so. My assessment could be completely wrong. Then what?
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 13, 2009 10:50 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 22:56, 13 Feb 2009.
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The Egypt thing has never happened and that has been proved so many times. No documents tells of Egypt ever having tons of slaves either.
And hell was stolen from norse mythology (where the kingdom of death was called Helheim or Hel, named after a giant/godess called Hel) by priests to scare people so that they would join the Church of Sun-Worship Parody.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted February 13, 2009 11:52 PM |
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Yeah, so? I break the first three commandments an keep 4-10. Bad for sosciety?
There's nothing bad for society in them.
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I don't think so. My assessment could be completely wrong. Then what
With building up I mean doing it in a right manner, same as if I said "I build a house" I don't mean that I would do it wrong.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted February 14, 2009 12:04 AM |
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No documents tells of Egypt ever having tons of slaves either.
Uhm...
The pyramids were built by leprechauns I suppose? Or by contracted workers operating under a complex union system?
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted February 14, 2009 12:27 AM |
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No documents tells of Egypt ever having tons of slaves either.
Uhm...
The pyramids were built by leprechauns I suppose? Or by contracted workers operating under a complex union system?
They were built by peasants. Egyptians had no slaves. The average worker was just forced to build the pyramids or die... So, actually, both bak and xerox are right 
now, back on-topic
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted February 14, 2009 01:19 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 01:33, 14 Feb 2009.
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The Egypt thing has never happened and that has been proved so many times. No documents tells of Egypt ever having tons of slaves either.
And hell was stolen from norse mythology (where the kingdom of death was called Helheim or Hel, named after a giant/godess called Hel) by priests to scare people so that they would join the Church of Sun-Worship Parody.
No, the Exodus has not been proven to have never happened. Egypt and other ancient people often modified their historical records upon suffering a defeat. The Pharoh was viewed as a god so they couldn't very well have the God of slaves beating their gods.
Hell is a concept found in both the Old and New Testaments. Some people try to claim that Sheol (the word usually translated hell in the Old Testament) only means the grave. Howerver, if Sheol is only the grave then:
Will a wise or righteous man's body never go the grave?
Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Everybody goes to the grave so what punishment is this?
Psalms 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
If you discipline your child will his body never go to the grave?
Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Does a dead body feel sorrow?
2 Samuel 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
Is this picturing a 6 foot deep grave?
Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Does this make any sense if Sheol is just a grave?
Psalms 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Does it take special ability to look at a grave?
Proverbs 15:11 Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
Sheol is a place that a persons spirit goes to after they die. Sheol is the Hebrew Old Testament word for Hades; Gehenna is the Greek New Testament word. Hades is the Greek term equal to Sheol. It is used 64 times throughout the Old Testament. It is used for both the righteous and unrighteous after they die.
In the Old Testament, both righteous and wicked when they died descended to sheol, which was divided into two sections, one for the saved called Abraham's bosom -Paradise (Lk.24:22-23), and the other for the unsaved which was a place of torment. The New Testament confirms the Old Testament teaching as Christ gives more revelation on this subject.
Jesus constantly warned of going there, if it was not a real place of punishment there would be nothing to warn about. Heaven is a real place and so is hell, both are eternal habitations after our life on earth is over. Here is what Jesus said on hell:
Mark 9:43-44 “If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched--“where 'Their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.”
2 Peter 2:4-5: “For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world. ”
Angels are spirit beings without bodies, man after death has no body but continues to exist. Notice both the spirits (angels) and those in the ancient world have the same punishment.
Ps. 9:17: “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.” Lest we think it is only the grave. Ps. 55:15 “Let death seize them; let them go down alive into hell.” Jonah was fully conscious as he prayed to God from sheol (Jonah 2:2).
In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: “And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE. . .” “eternal fire” (Jude 7), and “fire and brimstone” (Rev. 14:10; 20:10; 21:8). Hell is always described in terms of fire and torment that can be felt, though one does not have a physical body.
Revelation 20:15 says, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE.” The rich man in Luke 16:23-25 said it was" torment “place of torment" cried:. . .I am tormented in this FLAME.” He was described by Jesus as conscious and feeling pain and able to speak.
Jesus said, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him”
The majority of references to Hades or Gehenna (15 out of 23) come from Jesus. (except for James Jam. 3:6) Jesus was the only one to use the word Gehenna. Which makes it more important to determine its meaning. Hell is the place of the future punishment call “Gehenna.” The valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem was called “Gehenna” where the filth, refuse and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; as Jesus often used various illustrations they were familiar with, it was used as a visual symbol of the wicked and their future destination if they do not repent.
Some people make Gehenna the grave, (even though there is another word for this) but if this were so then a number of statements would not have the weight Jesus gave in warning. Hebrews 9:27 states that judgment immediately follows death. Heb.9:27: “it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.” After what? His death he is judged, that is a hard thing to do if he does not exist anymore.And the judgment will bring him either to heaven or separated from the good that God does in all peoples lives- Hell.
In Luke 12:4-5 Jesus spoke: “... do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.” But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear Him who, after He has killed, has power to cast into hell; yes, I say to you, fear Him!” There would be nothing to fear if we don’t exist? There would be nothing to fear if there is no hell but only heaven. Notice it says after you're dead. If it was only the grave then there would be nothing to fear since everyone both believers and unbelievers bodies are put there.
In Matthew 13:30 Jesus in a parable said, “Let both [tares and wheat] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.” Here unbelievers and are spoken of as tares, believers as wheat. Two classes of people are separated in the judgment of Mt.25- one goes into his barn as a harvest of good, the other to be burned.
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But there's one thing that troubles me: since other believers, Jobs friends, we're trying to open Job's eyes to see that God isn't evil, in the end God said to Job something like this: "pray for them , since they have spoken against me".
They were misrepresenting God. Eliphaz said that God was punishing Job for not doing enough good, and Bildad said Job was just whining because he wanted His wealth back. They told Job to curse God and die. With such friends who needs enemies?
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"To bring the knowledge of God to the rest of the world" and the following sentence is your interpretation. The wuote doesn't say anything about it.
Yes, but that is what kingdom of priests and holy nation means to me. Remember God told Abraham through his decendants the whole world would be blessed. And in reading other Old Testament prophets you can find similar such statements. Why else would there be a kingdom of priests?
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Genesis 4:2-5: "And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto Jehovah. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And Jehovah had respect unto Abel and to his offering: but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect."
Yes, well done, god.
You don't have to like it. God told them to bring living sacrifice of animals. Cain rebelled and offered vegetables. When you want to be accepted by God you can't expect to come to him with a disrespectful rebellious attitude in deliberate disobedience to him.
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If indeed he had that plan (how do you know, by the way), it didn't work. Ah, but about chastising, that's of coues a buseiness he understands.
I quoted the promise to Abraham. Here, I'll quote it again.
Gen 12:3
(3) And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 22:18
(18) And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Yes, it worked. Jesus Christ came and gave everyone of every nation the opportunity to experience salvation.
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Except for the slaves, of course. But then, they were neither neighbors nor part of the people - but neither were they Martians. Yes, god really cared for all the people.
God allowed slavery because of the hardness of the hearts of men. But Israel also had limitations on how they could treat the slaves and had to release them every 7 years on the year of Jubilee.
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That's a dream of Jacob's, and it cannot be of the Messiah, since god just says "in thee and in thy seed", which would mean the whole "clan" of Jacob, not a single person. This is certainly debatable.
See the verses in Genesis above. No, it is not debatable that it refered to Messiah. The word seed is singular and refers to specific individual.
Gal 3:16
(16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
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The Jews seem to think otherwise.
You mean some Jews believe otherwise. Jesus was a Jew. The disciples were Jews. The apostles were Jews. All of the early Chritians were Jews. There are many Jews today who understand that Jesus is the Messiah.
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You must say that. But we cannot check it anymore.
I provided proof. You did not read the paragraphs from the article I quoted or the entire article. The fact is there are many thousands of manuscripts. Textual criticism proves beyond any doubt that the texts were not changed. Saying they were is just a false allegation for which you can provide no support.
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There are other interpretaions.
Yes, others have misunderstanding. But Jesus plainly stated he is God and his disciples and apostles plainly stated that fact as well.
1Ti 3:16
(16) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Joh 20:27-31
(27) Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
(29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.(30) And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
(31) But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
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No documents tells of Egypt ever having tons of slaves either.
Uhm...
The pyramids were built by leprechauns I suppose? Or by contracted workers operating under a complex union system?
They were built by peasants. Egyptians had no slaves. The average worker was just forced to build the pyramids or die... So, actually, both bak and xerox are right
now, back on-topic
Please refer to the below link.
Hebrews in Egypt - Slaves and Plagues - Extra-Biblical Proof!
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted February 14, 2009 01:46 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 01:47, 14 Feb 2009.
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Additional caution when handling vegetables advised.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2009 02:22 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 02:26, 14 Feb 2009.
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Yes, they were built by peasants who GOT paid and worked with free will to build them. They were proud of their nation and proud to build such an amazing wonder (which I travelled to last year and will do again).
I never read those "Bible.com/Hebrew Slaves" sites.
I could link just as many scientific articles which proves that they did not have slaves.
They have found graves for the Pyramids builders. A slave would never get an egyptain grave.
The Bible has been changed so many times, but im completly sure that hell was inspired from norse mythology and then put into those books. Atleast thats what I learned in school that the priests did almost everything to get money during the medieval age.
I mean seriously, isnt it a bit oldish even for an strong beliving christain/jew etc to think that there actually is a burning pit below us where red humanoids called "demons" live and a powerful evil creature called Satan tortures people?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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