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mvassilev
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posted February 14, 2009 02:45 AM |
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Yes, they were built by peasants who GOT paid and worked with free will to build them. They were proud of their nation and proud to build such an amazing wonder
Just like the Heroic Gulag Volunteer Canal Builders for the Fatherland, right? 
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Eccentric Opinion
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2009 03:00 AM |
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???? Fatherland ????
Does only dads live there or what?
Or only users like "Father" ?
Im 13 and I have no idea what Fatherland is
Is there Motherland too?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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TheDeath
Responsible
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with serious business
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posted February 14, 2009 03:02 AM |
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Is there Motherland too?
In "Motherland", the pyramid builds you!
ok enough off topic but your post made me lol too much
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2009 03:04 AM |
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 14, 2009 08:14 AM |
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Edited by kainc at 08:14, 14 Feb 2009.
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They were misrepresenting God. Eliphaz said that God was punishing Job for not doing enough good, and Bildad said Job was just whining because he wanted His wealth back. They told Job to curse God and die. With such friends who needs enemies?
Thanks for clearing this out for me
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Doomforge
Admirable
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Retired Hero
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posted February 14, 2009 08:56 AM |
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I mean seriously, isnt it a bit oldish even for an strong beliving christain/jew etc to think that there actually is a burning pit below us where red humanoids called "demons" live and a powerful evil creature called Satan tortures people?
But there are no such things as burning pit and red demons. They are strictly middle age mind control addition to Christianity
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2009 10:08 AM |
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"To bring the knowledge of God to the rest of the world" and the following sentence is your interpretation. The quote doesn't say anything about it.
Yes, but that is what kingdom of priests and holy nation means to me. Remember God told Abraham through his decendants the whole world would be blessed. And in reading other Old Testament prophets you can find similar such statements. Why else would there be a kingdom of priests?
If your interpretation is right, they messed the job up - they didn't even try it, at least not properly.
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Genesis 4:2-5: "And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto Jehovah. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And Jehovah had respect unto Abel and to his offering: but unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect."
Yes, well done, god.
You don't have to like it. God told them to bring living sacrifice of animals. Cain rebelled and offered vegetables. When you want to be accepted by God you can't expect to come to him with a disrespectful rebellious attitude in deliberate disobedience to him.
There is nothing in the bible that tells about god wanting living sacrifice (or can you quote that from the Bible?), and Cain was a tiller anyway. What kind of god is a god that wants living sacrifice and frowns upon someone who makes an offering from what he's producing? If a king would do so, we'd call him unjust and harsh. With god it's not different.
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If indeed he had that plan (how do you know, by the way), it didn't work. Ah, but about chastising, that's of coues a buseiness he understands.
I quoted the promise to Abraham.
Yes, it worked. Jesus Christ came and gave everyone of every nation the opportunity to experience salvation.
Yes, it was so important that everyone was kept waiting a couple thousand years.
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Except for the slaves, of course. But then, they were neither neighbors nor part of the people - but neither were they Martians. Yes, god really cared for all the people.
God allowed slavery because of the hardness of the hearts of men. But Israel also had limitations on how they could treat the slaves and had to release them every 7 years on the year of Jubilee.
PLEASE. He had no qualms forbidding everything else as well without making amneds to any hardness of the hearts of men.
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That's a dream of Jacob's, and it cannot be of the Messiah, since god just says "in thee and in thy seed", which would mean the whole "clan" of Jacob, not a single person. This is certainly debatable.
See the verses in Genesis above. No, it is not debatable that it refered to Messiah. The word seed is singular and refers to specific individual.
Gal 3:16
(16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Wrong. See this definition in the MSN Encarta dictionary of North America:
"10. descendants: a person's children or descendants ( literary )
the seed of Abraham"
A person's children or descendants, AND THEY EVEN QUOTE YOUR QUOTE!
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The Jews seem to think otherwise.
You mean some Jews believe otherwise. Jesus was a Jew. The disciples were Jews. The apostles were Jews. All of the early Chritians were Jews. There are many Jews today who understand that Jesus is the Messiah.
All Jews think that. Otherwise there are no Jews anymore. The Jews are officially still waiting for their Messiah.
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You must say that. But we cannot check it anymore.
I provided proof. You did not read the paragraphs from the article I quoted or the entire article. The fact is there are many thousands of manuscripts. Textual criticism proves beyond any doubt that the texts were not changed. Saying they were is just a false allegation for which you can provide no support.
I quote from Wiki, the actual state of things. Note that different Christian Churches accept different texts and manuscripts as authentic:
"When ancient scribes copied earlier books, they wrote notes on the margins of the page (marginal glosses) to correct their text—especially if a scribe accidentally omitted a word or line—and to comment about the text. When later scribes were copying the copy, they were sometimes uncertain if a note was intended to be included as part of the text. See textual criticism. Over time, different regions evolved different versions, each with its own assemblage of omissions and additions.
The autographs, the Greek manuscripts written by the original authors, have not survived. Scholars surmise the original Greek text from the versions that do survive. The three main textual traditions of the Greek New Testament are sometimes called the Alexandrian text-type (generally minimalist), the Byzantine text-type (generally maximalist), and the Western text-type (occasionally wild). Together they comprise most of the ancient manuscripts.
There are also several ancient translations, most important of which are in the Syriac dialect of Aramaic (including the Pesnowta and the Diatessaron gospel harmony), in the Ethiopian language of Ge'ez, and in Latin (both the Vetus Latina and the Vulgate).
In 331, the Emperor Constantine commissioned Eusebius to deliver fifty Bibles for the Church of Constantinople. Athanasius (Apol. Const. 4) recorded Alexandrian scribes around 340 preparing Bibles for Constans. Little else is known, though there is plenty of speculation. For example, it is speculated that this may have provided motivation for canon lists, and that Codex Vaticanus, Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Alexandrinus are examples of these Bibles. Together with the Pesnowta, these are the earliest extant Christian Bibles.
The earliest surviving complete manuscript of the entire Bible is the Codex Amiatinus, a Latin Vulgate edition produced in eighth century England at the double monastery of Wearmouth-Jarrow."
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There are other interpretaions.
Yes, others have misunderstanding.
Sure, you and your "group" of believers are of course the only ones who know the truth. All the others are just too blind to see it.
I'm abstaining from commenting on hell here. Bad eough already as it is.
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted February 14, 2009 11:42 AM |
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tsk tsk
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God allowed slavery because of the hardness of the hearts of men. But Israel also had limitations on how they could treat the slaves and had to release them every 7 years on the year of Jubilee.
yes, very humane limitations....
"And if a man beats his male or female servant with a rod, so that he dies under his hand, he shall surely be avenged. Notwithstanding, if he remains alive a day or two, he shall not be avenged; for he is his property." (Exodus 21:20-21)
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 14, 2009 12:01 PM |
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Edited by kainc at 12:04, 14 Feb 2009.
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Ouch.
But what I'd like people to understand is that laws and such in Old Testament are no longer valid. Christ gave us "new rules" to love each other and do good. (I'm not saying Old Testament is meaningless or anything, just speaking about the laws).
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JollyJoker
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posted February 14, 2009 01:07 PM |
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You mean, becaue the laws of the old testament sucked and didn't meet Christ's standards, so he had to make some major adjustments? Like, "Dad was a bit harsh, having a hard time to forget the apple thing and such, but now let's make more love and peace instead of hate and war?" Is that what you want to make people understand?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted February 14, 2009 01:18 PM |
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I already explained somewhere why that approach isn't the convenient "let's skip what doesn't suit Christ" one. Don't want to repeat myself.
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 14, 2009 03:53 PM |
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Edited by kainc at 15:57, 14 Feb 2009.
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You mean, becaue the laws of the old testament sucked and didn't meet Christ's standards, so he had to make some major adjustments? Like, "Dad was a bit harsh, having a hard time to forget the apple thing and such, but now let's make more love and peace instead of hate and war?" Is that what you want to make people understand?
 it's kinda hard to explain but Christ is God, or a part of Him; together with Holy Spirit. It's not like Christ could have undone all those laws if God didn't want it to happen. And why did those laws needed to be undone? because people became more and more distant to God and with those standards no one could've been saved soon. That's why God did what He had to and sent His son to die through human hands (he's actually killed because of sins of mankind). Christ took our sins upon Him since they could have granted us hell according to previous laws, and He sacrificed Himself and beat the death (caused by those sins) through resurrection. And now only thing to do is to believe in Jesus, much simplier than before, eh? 
I'm not saying you have to believe, no, it's everyones own decision of course. You don't have to think these words are true if you dont want. This is just my opinion.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted February 14, 2009 06:40 PM |
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more just and fair laws...
28 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found,
29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not put her away all his days.â€
see kids? its ok to rape someone, as long as you pay her father for property damage... oh and you get to marry her! ...for life!
and for those that say Jesus wiped the slate clean and preached peace...
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17)
* "Law of the Prophets" is proven by other passages to be the entire old testament
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me." (Matthew 10: 34 - 37)
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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kainc
Famous Hero
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posted February 14, 2009 07:41 PM |
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"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17)
IMO by saying that He means Ten Commandments which actually are still valid. And they are kinda good anyways even if I think them outside religion. No, He did not abolish them, in fact He added more details to those Commandments (Sermon on the Mount).
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"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me." (Matthew 10: 34 - 37)
I see it like this:
those words are fulfilled; nowdays some fathers and mothers turn their back on their own children because they've started believing in Christ and say they have lost their mind. Children turn their back on their parents for same reason... it's not that rare these days. He brought the sword; some people hate / despise others for believing. And it's said that you should love God before anything else "He who loves X more than Me is not worthy".
Don't take this as preaching, I just wanted to tell how I see it. But this WILL be my last post in this topic since it's one of those converstations that will never end, and everyone is right and wrong and blah blah.
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TheDeath
Responsible
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with serious business
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posted February 14, 2009 08:00 PM |
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see kids? its ok to rape someone, as long as you pay her father for property damage... oh and you get to marry her! ...for life!
What has this got to do with?
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Lith-Maethor
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posted February 14, 2009 08:08 PM |
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heh
kainc, as i said "law of the prophets" means the entire old testament rulebook
and thedeath... it basically means two things:
1. its truly a God-given rule that should be followed - in which case, it brings down the whole argument about a just and loving father
2. its just some barbaric tribal rule ancient israelites had, that sneaked into the bible as a rule from God - in which case, you have to wonder what else made it in (and keep in mind that most things in the bible have NO historical proof whatsoever) and how much you can trust any of the bible
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted February 14, 2009 08:39 PM |
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Yes, they were built by peasants who GOT paid and worked with free will to build them. They were proud of their nation and proud to build such an amazing wonder (which I travelled to last year and will do again).
I never read those "Bible.com/Hebrew Slaves" sites.
I could link just as many scientific articles which proves that they did not have slaves.
They have found graves for the Pyramids builders. A slave would never get an egyptain grave.
The Bible has been changed so many times, but im completly sure that hell was inspired from norse mythology and then put into those books. Atleast thats what I learned in school that the priests did almost everything to get money during the medieval age.
I mean seriously, isnt it a bit oldish even for an strong beliving christain/jew etc to think that there actually is a burning pit below us where red humanoids called "demons" live and a powerful evil creature called Satan tortures people?
I already proved that critial scholarship proves the Bible has not changed. But freel free to believe what you want to and ignore the eveidence. Same with Egypt having slaves.
You appear to not be aware of actual Bible teaching. Satan is not currently in hell. When he is cast into hell he will not be torturing anyone. Satan and the demons (other fallen angels) will be tortured forever along with all human sinners who have refused to repent of their sins.
Rev 20:10-15
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
(11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
(12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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There is nothing in the bible that tells about god wanting living sacrifice (or can you quote that from the Bible?), and Cain was a tiller anyway. What kind of god is a god that wants living sacrifice and frowns upon someone who makes an offering from what he's producing? If a king would do so, we'd call him unjust and harsh. With god it's not different.
What I mean was God wanted a live animal to be sacrificed. And it is not explicitly stated at that point in the Bible but it is recorded that Cain did not "do well" by sacrificing vegetables so it is obvious that God required an animal. They had obviously been instructed previously how to sacrifice and what God required.
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
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Yes, it was so important that everyone was kept waiting a couple thousand years.
God had a time table. Sorry that it does not meet with your approval. I don't think God has to run his schedule by you.
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PLEASE. He had no qualms forbidding everything else as well without making amneds to any hardness of the hearts of men.
No, the Bible says God made certain allowances because of the hardness of the hearts of men. For example, divorce.
Mat 19:7-8
(7) They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
(8) He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
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Wrong. See this definition in the MSN Encarta dictionary of North America:
"10. descendants: a person's children or descendants ( literary )
the seed of Abraham"
A person's children or descendants, AND THEY EVEN QUOTE YOUR QUOTE!
No, you are wrong. The word seed is singular, thus designating one person. The Bible interpreted the verse in question and it agrees with what I said, not with you.
Gal 3:16
(16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
See, "as of one, 'and to thy seed', which is Christ."
There is zero room for interpretation because the Bible interpreted itself.
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All Jews think that. Otherwise there are no Jews anymore. The Jews are officially still waiting for their Messiah.
Sorry, but you are wrong again. I repeat, Jesus was a Jew, the disciples were Jews, the apostles were Jews, all of the early Christians were Jews and there are many Jews today who believe Jesus is the Messiah.
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The autographs, the Greek manuscripts written by the original authors, have not survived.
True, but by textual critisim and the many thousands of documents we know we have the words of the original autographs to 99.9% accuracy.
http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Integ/B-0701.htm
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On the average, Old Testament documents yield about one variation per page of text; New Testament manuscripts yield only a tenth of one percent variance. In other words, 99.9% of those manuscripts are in perfect agreement.
Though an occasional scribe altered a text to be copied, the resulting deviant copy constitutes only an infrequent departure from the plethora of copies available for corroborating comparison. Even as later copyists unknowingly passed on certain aberrations, appeals to still earlier or more reliable documents still preserve the original message.
Thanks to textual criticism and on-going archaeological discoveries, even as time passes far beyond the date of the original writings, we may be confident that the Bible of today is a fully trustworthy duplication of the original autographs.
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Sure, you and your "group" of believers are of course the only ones who know the truth.
I don't claim to know everything perfectly but the verses I quoted plainly called Jesus God. There are many others. Jesus is God existing as a man.
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You mean, becaue the laws of the old testament sucked and didn't meet Christ's standards, so he had to make some major adjustments? Like, "Dad was a bit harsh, having a hard time to forget the apple thing and such, but now let's make more love and peace instead of hate and war?" Is that what you want to make people understand?
No. Christ came to establish the New Covenant. The Old Covenant which was with the nation of Israel no longer applies. As I proved, God allowed some things because of the hardness of the hearts of man.
And God did not make "hate and war." Even in the Old Testament he taught them to love their neighbor. God did use Israel to judge the surrounding nations and the surrounding nations to judge Israel.
Lev 19:18
(18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Now, with the bringing of the New Testament the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is available to believers and believers are lifted to a higher moral standard.
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see kids? its ok to rape someone, as long as you pay her father for property damage... oh and you get to marry her! ...for life!
Untrue. Your interpretation of the vers is incorrect.
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Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Deu 22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
That is not talking about rape. The woman did not cry out. This is taking about 2 unmarried people having sex. The penalty of rape was death if you read the previous 3 verses above these.
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and for those that say Jesus wiped the slate clean and preached peace...
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17)
The New Covenatnt was prophesied in the Old Covenant times. Jesus brought in the New Covenant. The church has never been under the old one.
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Jer 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant ... this shall be the covenant that I will make ...I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.... And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Under the New Covenant we recieve the Spirit as the prophet Joel also prophesied would happen in th New Covenant. (Joel 2:27-32)
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
The ceremonial law was not carried over into the New Covenant. Ceremonial law was a shadow pointing towards the coming of Christ. Christ, the reality of the shadow, has come.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
1) The ceremonial law pointed to Christ and is fulfilled in him.
2) Jesus perfectly obeyed the Law.
3) Jesus paid our penalty for breaking the Law.
The Law could not give us the strength to live right but the Spirit that we receive in the New Covenant can.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The moral law as you see is still in effect. The requirements of the moral law are righteous. The punishments for sin were only for the nation of Israel. The church is not allowed to punish anyone for sin beyond disfellowshipng unrepentant sinners.
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"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me." (Matthew 10: 34 - 37)
Yes, this does not mean that his disciples were to commit violence. This means they would be persecuted for the truth. You see, some sinners became enemies of their kin because their kin became followers of Jesus.
When you look at the context of the passage the meaning becomes quite clear. They were to not be afraid to speak the truth no matter what the cost.
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Mat 10:27-42
(27) What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(29) Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
(30) But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
(31) Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
(32) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
(33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
(34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
(35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
(36) And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
(37) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
(38) And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
(39) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
(40) He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
(41) He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
(42) And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
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rubycus
Known Hero
-student of the mind-
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posted February 14, 2009 09:11 PM |
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Edited by rubycus at 00:00, 15 Feb 2009.
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Did anyone see my question?
I'll explain the story:
"I was once on a journey with a group of people. One day we went to this house were an old lady lives. We talked to her, and she said she was blind. So we asked her if we could pray for her. She said yes. So we prayed for her blindness. And after the prayer she said she could see a little sunlight.
Another group prayer for another blind women. She acctually got her full vision back. "
I am telling the truth here. If you choose not to believe my words, then that's fine.
My question is: How would you explain people getting their vision back by prayer, if there's no God?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 14, 2009 10:30 PM |
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@Elodin
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Wrong. See this definition in the MSN Encarta dictionary of North America:
"10. descendants: a person's children or descendants ( literary )
the seed of Abraham"
A person's children or descendants, AND THEY EVEN QUOTE YOUR QUOTE!
No, you are wrong. The word seed is singular, thus designating one person. The Bible interpreted the verse in question and it agrees with what I said, not with you.
Gal 3:16
(16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
See, "as of one, 'and to thy seed', which is Christ."
There is zero room for interpretation because the Bible interpreted itself.
Here: http://www.onelook.com/?ls=b&fc=all_gen&q=seed
are tons of dictionaries listed that define the word "seed". For example:
Encarta Worlds Englisg Dictionary, North American Edition:
http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1861712400
"10. descendants: a person's children or descendants ( literary )
the seed of Abraham" or
Merriam-Webster's Online Dinctionary:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/seed
"Inflected Form(s): plural seed or seeds; 2: progeny: 1 a: descendants , children" or
Why should I argue with someone who doesn't even speak the same language as me and everyone else? If you insist on living in your on personal world with your own personal language, I'm not going to be able ro change anything about that.
Worse:
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There is nothing in the bible that tells about god wanting living sacrifice (or can you quote that from the Bible?), and Cain was a tiller anyway. What kind of god is a god that wants living sacrifice and frowns upon someone who makes an offering from what he's producing? If a king would do so, we'd call him unjust and harsh. With god it's not different.
What I mean was God wanted a live animal to be sacrificed. And it is not explicitly stated at that point in the Bible but it is recorded that Cain did not "do well" by sacrificing vegetables so it is obvious that God required an animal. They had obviously been instructed previously how to sacrifice and what God required.
You add "secret" knowledge; oh, it is not explicitely stated, but RECORDED that Cain didn't do well. And since Abel DID well, OF COURSE they MUST have been instructed prior to that only a sacrifice of the stuff ABEL has easy access to would suffice. That's so self-evident and normal that it is of course unnecessary to mention it.
It's not only the language that's different. So I consider any further debate uselss.
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All Jews think that. Otherwise there are no Jews anymore. The Jews are officially still waiting for their Messiah.
Sorry, but you are wrong again. I repeat, Jesus was a Jew, the disciples were Jews, the apostles were Jews, all of the early Christians were Jews and there are many Jews today who believe Jesus is the Messiah.
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The autographs, the Greek manuscripts written by the original authors, have not survived.
True, but by textual critisim and the many thousands of documents we know we have the words of the original autographs to 99.9% accuracy.
http://www.provethebible.net/T2-Integ/B-0701.htm
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On the average, Old Testament documents yield about one variation per page of text; New Testament manuscripts yield only a tenth of one percent variance. In other words, 99.9% of those manuscripts are in perfect agreement.
Though an occasional scribe altered a text to be copied, the resulting deviant copy constitutes only an infrequent departure from the plethora of copies available for corroborating comparison. Even as later copyists unknowingly passed on certain aberrations, appeals to still earlier or more reliable documents still preserve the original message.
Thanks to textual criticism and on-going archaeological discoveries, even as time passes far beyond the date of the original writings, we may be confident that the Bible of today is a fully trustworthy duplication of the original autographs.
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Sure, you and your "group" of believers are of course the only ones who know the truth.
I don't claim to know everything perfectly but the verses I quoted plainly called Jesus God. There are many others. Jesus is God existing as a man.
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You mean, becaue the laws of the old testament sucked and didn't meet Christ's standards, so he had to make some major adjustments? Like, "Dad was a bit harsh, having a hard time to forget the apple thing and such, but now let's make more love and peace instead of hate and war?" Is that what you want to make people understand?
No. Christ came to establish the New Covenant. The Old Covenant which was with the nation of Israel no longer applies. As I proved, God allowed some things because of the hardness of the hearts of man.
And God did not make "hate and war." Even in the Old Testament he taught them to love their neighbor. God did use Israel to judge the surrounding nations and the surrounding nations to judge Israel.
Lev 19:18
(18) Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
Now, with the bringing of the New Testament the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is available to believers and believers are lifted to a higher moral standard.
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see kids? its ok to rape someone, as long as you pay her father for property damage... oh and you get to marry her! ...for life!
Untrue. Your interpretation of the vers is incorrect.
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Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Deu 22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
That is not talking about rape. The woman did not cry out. This is taking about 2 unmarried people having sex. The penalty of rape was death if you read the previous 3 verses above these.
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and for those that say Jesus wiped the slate clean and preached peace...
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17)
The New Covenatnt was prophesied in the Old Covenant times. Jesus brought in the New Covenant. The church has never been under the old one.
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Jer 31:31-34 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant ... this shall be the covenant that I will make ...I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.... And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Under the New Covenant we recieve the Spirit as the prophet Joel also prophesied would happen in th New Covenant. (Joel 2:27-32)
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
The ceremonial law was not carried over into the New Covenant. Ceremonial law was a shadow pointing towards the coming of Christ. Christ, the reality of the shadow, has come.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
1) The ceremonial law pointed to Christ and is fulfilled in him.
2) Jesus perfectly obeyed the Law.
3) Jesus paid our penalty for breaking the Law.
The Law could not give us the strength to live right but the Spirit that we receive in the New Covenant can.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The moral law as you see is still in effect. The requirements of the moral law are righteous. The punishments for sin were only for the nation of Israel. The church is not allowed to punish anyone for sin beyond disfellowshipng unrepentant sinners.
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"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me." (Matthew 10: 34 - 37)
Yes, this does not mean that his disciples were to commit violence. This means they would be persecuted for the truth. You see, some sinners became enemies of their kin because their kin became followers of Jesus.
When you look at the context of the passage the meaning becomes quite clear. They were to not be afraid to speak the truth no matter what the cost.
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Mat 10:27-42
(27) What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
(28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(29) Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
(30) But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
(31) Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
(32) Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
(33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
(34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
(35) For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
(36) And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
(37) He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
(38) And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
(39) He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
(40) He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
(41) He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
(42) And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 01, 2009 04:39 AM |
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Selected Bible quotes:
"Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, 'Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!' So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the LORD. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths." 2 Kings 2:23-24
"Yet she increased her whoring, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the snow in the land of Egypt and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys, and whose issue was like that of horses." Ezekiel 23:19-20
“If two men fight together, and the wife of one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of the one attacking him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; your eye shall not pity her." Deuteronomy 25:11-12
"He who is emasculated by crushing or mutilation shall not enter the assembly of the LORD." Deuteronomy 23:1
"Then Saul said, 'Thus you shall say to David: ‘The king does not desire any dowry but one hundred foreskins of the Philistines, to take vengeance on the king’s enemies.’' But Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. So when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to become the king’s son-in-law. Now the days had not expired; therefore David arose and went, he and his men, and killed two hundred men of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, and they gave them in full count to the king, that he might become the king’s son-in-law." 1 Samuel 18:25-27
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Eccentric Opinion
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