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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted May 25, 2009 10:20 AM |
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Edited by Binabik at 10:21, 25 May 2009.
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I only occasionally take a glance in here before running away as fast as I can .....but to make a quick comment....
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Now, add to that the usually <= high-school level ability in math and physics of the average fanatic Christian, and immediately you realize the extent to which the guy knows what he is talking about.
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Yet more insults towards Christians eh?
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Why do you see this as an insult? Is it a fact, yes or no? Should I go to the priest of my local church and ask him to explain me cosmology? Why priests are not teaching cosmology or quantum mechanics in the universities? Is it because they don't have a clue more or less? What about their "followers" - "students" of those priests?
Actually the most religious Christians I know also happen to be the most scientifically educated. My ex neighbor whom I've known all my life has his PhD in theoretical physics. He was a full professor and taught post doctoral physics. He retired from that job and became the head of the engineering mathematics division at Boeing Corporation. His son who is my age has a PhD in chemistry and has been a research scientist for 20+ years. They get up and go to church almost every Sunday.
The chemist once told me he simply doesn't see any conflict between science and religion. And I agree with him. I really don't see why so many people look at science and the existence of god as somehow mutually exclusive. Seriously, I see no conflict whatsoever.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted May 25, 2009 10:44 AM |
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Binabik,
I am not talking only about the people you hobnob. I am talking about the people you know in general. And apart from that, the statement "once told me he simply doesn't see any conflict between science and religion." might be true for him, but for entirely different reasons and justifications to those that you are going to hear by most Christians.
But again, you fail to see what I am saying:
If you want to talk about cosmology or quantum mechanics, then you want to talk about physics. So, study physics. End of story. Otherwise, I already asked: Why don't we make priests teach at universities?
Of course you can always believe in an eternal God; it doesn't matter, since it is completely irrelevant. So, I agree with you. There is no conflict. I "hope" for afterlife.
As of people with phds, I have also seen many who have no hope in this life in general. If you don't believe me, I can give you a free tour any time. I am not saying anything about the two that you mention; I just say that having a phd doesn't necessarily mean much. I also have a friend of mine who never had a diploma from a university, and yet his understanding was way above an ex office mate that I had who got a phd. But I only know one such guy in person, among the .. I don't know ... 2-3K people (may be more - really hard to estimate) that I know on this planet. So, he is an exception.
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The empty set
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 25, 2009 10:53 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 11:03, 25 May 2009.
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Nice post, dimis. Though, I fear it will fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes in this case).
It is interesting some people alwasys like to call those they disagree with blind and deaf or some other derogatory term.
It might also be the case that they are indeed deaf/blind.
Or the case of the person who continualy insults others as being the blind and deaf one. Certainly a person incapable of conducting a debate without resulting to insults would be somewhat immature.
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This statement has as much value as the following: Big Bang is the first cause! It created time!! (Can you prove that wrong?)
You can't prove that God is not the first cause. The universe had to have a cause. If the universe came to be through "The Big Bang" the BB had to have a cause. Absolute nothing can produce absolutely nothing.
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Always the same....theists claim an opinion as a fact. Since hundreds of years...
And atheists claim their opinion as a fact. When you make the statement "There is no God" you are making a statement of faith. It is your opinion that God does not exist. But you cannot prove it and have absolutely no proof that there is no God.
Always the same.
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God is eternal....he created time...so there is no before God. But even without time, he must have been created out of anything, no matter how much time that lasted.
And he created matter....out of what?
God caused everything to come into being. He did not need anything to exist in order to create. He is the First Cause. The reason that everything exists.
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Being able to create a whole universe, but not being able to destroy the bad part (hell, devil, etc...). Pretty fickle I would say...
The Bible does not say God is unable to destroy anything. Hell is punishment.
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Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
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If you want to talk about cosmology or quantum mechanics, then you want to talk about physics. So, study physics. End of story. Otherwise, I already asked: Why don't we make priests teach at universities?
Some do. However a priest/miinister is supposed to be preaching the gospel and ministering to his parishoners not teaching in a college.
There are large numbers of religous scientists.
http://www.tektonics.org/scim/sciencemony.htm
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 25, 2009 01:03 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 13:04, 25 May 2009.
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Or the case of the person who continualy insults others as being the blind and deaf one. Certainly a person incapable of conducting a debate without resulting to insults would be somewhat immature.
Come on, don't be oversensitive. To say "Something is falling on deaf ears" is for sure no insult.
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You can't prove that God is not the first cause.
There is no need, coz you can't prove the opposit either.
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The universe had to have a cause. If the universe came to be through "The Big Bang" the BB had to have a cause. Absolute nothing can produce absolutely nothing.
I have to disagree. If the "FIRST CAUSE" theory counts for your "God", you have to accept it counts for other theories aswell. Same right for all
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And atheists claim their opinion as a fact.
Example? But please don't mix up "opinion" with "scientific result".
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When you make the statement "There is no God" you are making a statement of faith.
I never did. I am not an atheist but an agnostic. Please keep in mind.
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It is your opinion that God does not exist.But you cannot prove it and have absolutely no proof that there is no God.
We are running around in circles. It is pretty uncommon in human sense to prove something does NOT exist. Normally it is the other way around. Or can YOU prove there are no pink monkeys living on planet Venus?
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God caused everything to come into being.
Personal opinion.
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He did not need anything to exist in order to create.
Personal opinion.
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He is the First Cause.
Personal opinion.
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The reason that everything exists.
Personal opinion.
So I may repeat myself:
- The reason why I am not an Atheist but an Agnostic, is because I am not able to prove God does NOT exist, and I do not care about the fact at all. And I for sure won't accept rules or dogmas stated in a collection of many old papers written by very old people to keep normal folks "quiet" and not curious anymore.
- You on the other hand are in the same situation. You are NOT able to prove God's existance, but you DO care about God. But you do not even TRY to question your "theory". Everything written in the Bible is the holy truth, everything which doesn't fit (anymore), is either a wrong interpretation of the translators, or the famous words "God's ways are unfathomable!"
And that may be the reaosn why the differences between theists and atheists/agnostics are getting bigger and bigger. The one side is able top adapt due to more knowledge, while the other side stays on the same level, no matter what.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted May 25, 2009 02:33 PM |
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According to Christian philosophy, Angelito, God creates out of nothing (ex nihilo).
You asked a Christian about what God created the Universe from.
He said, strangely enough, "out of nothing".
What did you expect?  Sure, it's a personal opinion, just like your personal opinion is that he couldn't create it out of nothing. What's the point of asking a question when you already know what the answer will be, just to state the conclusion which everyone already knows?
***
Aside from that, why do people constantly see time as something with a beginning and an end? Take a circle, for example. Where does it start?
If I recall correctly, though I can't remember from where, after the Big Bang, the Universe started expanding, and will after a while be pulled by gravity back into a tiny spot so that another Bang occurs etc. Like a giant cosmic yo-yo. There's something to think about (if I'm not wrong of course ).
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Wolfsburg
Promising
Known Hero
... the Vampire Doc
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posted May 25, 2009 03:26 PM |
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@Bak
Some hypothesis sorrounding the time before the big bang are so complex that they require a level of abstraction most of us fail to reach.
Can you imagine a situation where time still doesn't exist?
Almost as hard to imagine as an entity emerging from nothingness and making it all out of nothing...
Although I consider the big bang to be sustained by undeniable evidence, and that no serious man of science would deny it; the times BEFORE the big bang are very nebulous, and the hypothesis adressing it so far can be very braintwisting.
@Angelito
We are of the same opinion on faith/religion so far. Interesting.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted May 25, 2009 03:33 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 15:34, 25 May 2009.
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What did you expect? Sure, it's a personal opinion, just like your personal opinion is that he couldn't create it out of nothing.
I didn't say he couldn't, I asked how he did it. Elodin said: Quote:
Absolute nothing can produce absolutely nothing
That's why I asked 
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Aside from that, why do people constantly see time as something with a beginning and an end? Take a circle, for example. Where does it start?
A circle has no start when it is completed, but when you draw one, there is a start
The only problem I have is the implicitness when talking about things like "God" and "Creating universe", as if it would be completely not understandable how someone could even THINK it could be different....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted May 25, 2009 03:34 PM |
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There is NO SUCH THING as "before" God because 'before' refers relative to a TIME INSTANT, but God created time so asking what was 'before' God is like asking what is the color of a second.
Umm... yeah my point is that God couldn't create a time if there wasn't any time, and how can he crate matter and time if there was nothing in the Universe? The Law of the Universe (one of em') Is that matter cannot be created nor destroyed, only transformed.
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God is eternal. No beginning and no ending. He is the First Cause.
You have no proof AT ALL saying that out of nothing a human hand came out and created everything, no proof so think about it
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This statement has as much value as the following: Big Bang is the first cause! It created time!! (Can you prove that wrong?)
Always the same....theists claim an opinion as a fact. Since hundreds of years...
God is eternal....he created time...so there is no before God. But even without time, he must have been created out of anything, no matter how much time that lasted.
And he created matter....out of what?
And he created all the planets and stars....out of what?
And he created light...out of what?
Oh...yes...I forgot...he is all-mighty.....damn...all questions answered.
Being able to create a whole universe, but not being able to destroy the bad part (hell, devil, etc...). Pretty fickle I would say...
Thank you for Understanding, How can a God create everything out of... Nothing? And the Devil isn't even as close as the Universe, so if God created the Universe, how come he can't Destory the Satan?
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Vini Vidi Vici
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Totoro
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in User
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posted May 25, 2009 03:42 PM |
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Edited by Totoro at 15:55, 25 May 2009.
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Can you imagine a situation where time still doesn't exist?
Almost as hard to imagine as an entity emerging from nothingness and making it all out of nothing...
It is not hard. It is impossible. We are not prgorammed that way and can never understand it.
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Umm... yeah my point is that God couldn't create a time if there wasn't any time, and how can he crate matter and time if there was nothing in the Universe? The Law of the Universe (one of em') Is that matter cannot be created nor destroyed, only transformed.
God programmed the universe. God doesn't need time to do things. God doesn't need matter to create matter. God can create things out of nothing just easily as banks create money out of nothing.
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You have no proof AT ALL saying that out of nothing a human hand came out and created everything, no proof so think about it
God is not human. God is power! And you have to prove it to be incorrect.
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And the Devil isn't even as close as the Universe, so if God created the Universe, how come he can't Destory the Satan?
Because then all evil would be gone and only good things would stay but that wouldn't be possible because good things only exist when there is evil as opposite. New evil would appear if good things are to stay there and then Satan would be resurrected, and thus we come to a fact that Satan is immortal and can only be destroyed when God destroys everything else too when there'd be no good or evil, but I bet God doesn't want to destroy everything He has created.
PS. You yet have to learn to expand your mind.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2009 04:17 PM |
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Bak:
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Aside from that, why do people constantly see time as something with a beginning and an end? Take a circle, for example. Where does it start?
If I recall correctly, though I can't remember from where, after the Big Bang, the Universe started expanding, and will after a while be pulled by gravity back into a tiny spot so that another Bang occurs etc. Like a giant cosmic yo-yo.
Exactly. 
Totoro:
So the all-powerful God can't even destroy Satan? (Never mind that he created him in the first place.)
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Eccentric Opinion
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2009 04:33 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 16:34, 25 May 2009.
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Lol a couple of weeks ago we got this confirmation letter home.
Mum: Are you going to confirmate?
Me: No, why would I?
Mum: I dunno, just a thought. Uhm... you get presents.
Me: What kind of presents? Expensive/good ones?
Mum: Uhm... I got a <cant remember>.
Me: That sucks. Isnt it said that the Church in Sweden are so desperate to recruit more members that they have to give out presents in order to get members. You confirmated yourself, right?
Mum: Yeah, everybody did at that at the time.
Me: Why? Did everybody believe in god back then?
Mum: No, to be honest everybody only confirmated themself to get free presents...
Me: Well, thats stupid.
Mum: I guess the kids today are so spoiled that they dont want "poor" presents like we did.
Me: This is another generation, mum. Confirmation is just weird now. And stupid. That they have to give out presents to recruit young members, pathetic... What's for dinner?
Mum: Crisped potato, skagen mixture and roast beef. But tomorrow I will work long and wont be able to cook, so I will buy McDonals or something. There is Pizza in the fridge.
edit: Does any serious christain even believe in hell and the devil anymore? I thought nobody believed that and that it was common sense that it was made up by the Church in the middle-ages so that people would be scared and force to join the Church so the Priests got get even richer.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 25, 2009 04:39 PM |
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Does any serious christain even believe in hell and the devil anymore?
Some do. Some don't.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted May 25, 2009 05:07 PM |
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Edited by Totoro at 17:08, 25 May 2009.
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So the all-powerful God can't even destroy Satan? (Never mind that he created him in the first place.)
Satan is not a person. Just like God, he is a power! Or rather a symbol of the power of everything that we see as negative. The world was created this way for some reason and I believe there is a good reason for it to be this way.
And by the way, I loved my confirmation camp. Over everything else, it is a great social event.
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baklava
Honorable
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posted May 25, 2009 05:09 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 17:10, 25 May 2009.
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@ Angelito
Alrighty then. But the sentence "absolute nothing can produce absolute nothing" doesn't seem contradictory to the opinion that God created the Universe.
Though I understand that you're irritated by believers claiming what they believe as undeniable facts. I was irritated by those quite a few times too.
Also:
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A circle has no start when it is completed, but when you draw one, there is a start
Is there a "when" in the creation of time if time itself is a circle?
@ The Hell issue
Hell is presented by most Christians as not a place where demons boil you in large cauldrons, but a state of mind and soul. And demons... well, I feel demons coursing through the world every day. Just like angels. Perhaps everyone bears some inner angels and demons within. That depends on your view on what they are.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted May 25, 2009 05:30 PM |
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That depends on your view on what they are.
A leaf in the eye of a storm
And evil is such an abstract thing...
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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mvassilev
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posted May 25, 2009 05:30 PM |
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Totoro:
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Satan is not a person. Just like God, he is a power!
Most Christians (among those who believe in Satan) do not believe that Satan's power is even comparable to God's.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Totoro
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in User
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posted May 25, 2009 05:38 PM |
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Edited by Totoro at 17:39, 25 May 2009.
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God doesn't fight Satan like most people often picture it as a classical battle between good and evil. God is the power behind everything, even Satan, and God has a reason behind Satan.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted May 25, 2009 05:39 PM |
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Because he's cruel?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 25, 2009 05:40 PM |
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Come on, don't be oversensitive. To say "Something is falling on deaf ears" is for sure no insult.
I really don't care what anyone says about me as long as I am able use similar strong language. But on a couple of occasions when I have done so someone ran crying to moderators with tears flowing like rivers.
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There is no need, coz you can't prove the opposit either.
Yes, but I acknowledge that I have faith and the laws of thermodynamics are on my side.
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I have to disagree. If the "FIRST CAUSE" theory counts for your "God", you have to accept it counts for other theories aswell. Same right for all.
Except that your view violates the laws of thermodynamics and mine does not. God is not matter or energy and is not subject to the laws of thermodynamics. God existed before the universe and so is obviously not bound by the laws of the universe.
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And atheists claim their opinion as a fact.
Example? But please don't mix up "opinion" with "scientific result".
Many modern atheists say "God does not exist" rather than I don't believe in God.
An atheist does not acknowledge the existence of God and so must either claim the universe is eternal (which has been debunked) or that the universe produced itself (which violates the laws of thermodynamics.)
I don't care if you believe the universe produced itself. But don't claim that your belief is a "scientific result."
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I do not care about the fact at all. And I for sure won't accept rules or dogmas stated in a collection of many old papers written by very old people to keep normal folks "quiet" and not curious anymore.
Of course I say the Bible is divine revelation. Though of course the religion of "Science" shuns those who reject the prevailing theories. They are expelled from the inner circle of worshipers if their dogma is "incorrect."
Science (not the religion of Science) is an imperfect tool. People are imperfect and make imperfect observations and comee to imperfect conclusions. "Science" has been proven wrong many times.
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You on the other hand are in the same situation. You are NOT able to prove God's existance, but you DO care about God. But you do not even TRY to question your "theory". Everything written in the Bible is the holy truth, everything which doesn't fit (anymore), is either a wrong interpretation of the translators, or the famous words "God's ways are unfathomable!"
Actually I have studied the Bible since my youth. I know what I believe and why I believe it. That is why I can always produce Scripture to back my belief and know when someone is clipping a verse or taking a verse out of the context of the passage to pull a fast one.
There is nothing that "does not fit anymore" in the Bible. And please don't bother doing a copy and past from anti-Christian sites that take verses out of context.
I find frankly that atheists/agnostics generally have a very poor knowledge of the Bible. Their knowledge of the Bible tends to be "talking points" of Scriptures that can be taken out of context in debates with Christians who don't yet have a thourough knowledge of the Bible.
I don't think that atheists/agnostics have spent much "effort" in seeking to discern if God really does exist.
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And that may be the reaosn why the differences between theists and atheists/agnostics are getting bigger and bigger. The one side is able top adapt due to more knowledge, while the other side stays on the same level, no matter what.
You have just made a point for me.
Many Christians become scientista and engineers. And as I mentioned above the atheist/agnostic generally will not seek to persue "spiritual knowledge" becasue they catagorically rule out that such a thing exists.
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Umm... yeah my point is that God couldn't create a time if there wasn't any time, and how can he crate matter and time if there was nothing in the Universe? The Law of the Universe (one of em') Is that matter cannot be created nor destroyed, only transformed.
You do realize that the Big Bang theory says time and space did not exist befor the Big Bang, right?
Energy can't be created or destroyed in the closed systm of the universe. The second law of thermodynamics requires the univers to have a beginning.
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God is eternal. No beginning and no ending. He is the First Cause.
You have no proof AT ALL saying that out of nothing a human hand came out and created everything, no proof so think about it
My concept at least does not contradict science unlike the idea of an eternal universe or self-producing universe or an eternal yo-yo.
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Totoro
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in User
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posted May 25, 2009 05:41 PM |
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Edited by Totoro at 17:42, 25 May 2009.
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Because he's cruel?
Is cruel bad then? Why is cruel bad? Just because humans don't like being a victim of cruelty? Cruelty is there so that we could understand it's opposite and pursue for it.
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