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Doomforge
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posted July 16, 2009 09:05 PM |
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Good point.
But, JJ - those are the rules, but do you really think people would be condemned to eternal torture for breaking them?
Even in Christianity, opinions are divided. Saint Paul, for example, has claimed that everyone who truly believed in Jesus and accepted him as Messiah would be excused for those petty sins.
There are also hundreds of interpretations that differ quite a lot, some claiming there is no hell at all (and I actually think this one is most logical), some saying sinners will be tormented for eternity (I don't believe in this one), and many claiming something in between. Which is the correct one? I really think it's up to you and your interpretation.
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted July 16, 2009 09:07 PM |
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According to some, Hell is the absence of God. In laymen, if you break those rules, the parent ain't gonna help you.
By the way, you have to be honest when you repent. THE most important thing. Not speaking it out loud or whatever.
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Warmonger
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fallen artist
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posted July 16, 2009 09:09 PM |
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Quote:
Nah. OBEDIENCE. Simple and easy. The purpose of this is obedience.
I feel sorry if you find every set of rules opressive, created by some outer force to control your life. Actually many of them are here to guide you and help taking right (positive!) decisions, not to restrict your freedom. Especially in christianity and other dominating religions.
Everyone who claims oppoite may actually be one of them who want to control your behaviour or use in some way.
The fact whether you agree with these rules or not in another issue. But taking decisions by simple yes or no is indeed a limitation. Freedom is an ability to take new, independent paths and create new rules and purposes.
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Doomforge
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posted July 16, 2009 09:17 PM |
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My interpretation of "the eternity part" is: those who WANTED to be resurrected - and did what was necessary to - will be resurrected. Those who claimed God doesn't exist and they don't give a **** about him and afterlife wouldn't be, according to their wish. No eternal hell, just eternal nothingness, oblivion - exactly what the atheists believe in, actually. They die and that's it. They're gone. Yeah, no hell.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 16, 2009 09:27 PM |
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Quote:
No eternal hell, just eternal nothingness, oblivion - exactly what the atheists believe in, actually. They die and that's it. They're gone. Yeah, no hell.
Why would you assume this is what atheists unilaterally believe?
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Doomforge
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posted July 16, 2009 09:34 PM |
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Ok, that was a bit of simplified thinking. Of course there are atheists who don't believe in God BUT believe in afterlife, and I'm aware of it.
I used the term "atheist" as a definition of a person who is dead-rationalistic - doesn't believe in afterlife, God, gods, anything of that. He simply thinks we die and poof, there is no soul, there is nothing but simple biological mass that decays and disappears forever leaving nothing at all that resembles once living person. I know the term "atheist" isn't actually that, but you know, I don't really know a word that would fit here instead, so excuse me for my poor choice of words 
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xerdux
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted July 16, 2009 09:35 PM |
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Yes. I dont believe anything happens at all. You stop exist. I dont understand why thats so hard to imagine. You dont exist anymore. You dont feel "nothingless".
Though I am open to ideas about souls etc though there is zero scientific evidence. And I agree that ceasing to exist sounds very boring and dying should not be fun. Instead you should appreciate the time you have in the universe and make the most of it (that means travel as much as you can etc).
I also admit that I would like to be reborn as a rich snow girl or an Eagle though xD But I dont find reincarnation very possible, thought I use it in my fantasy setting. 
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted July 16, 2009 09:35 PM |
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Don't you want to understand, or have I found a point where you don't find an answer in the bible?
I will try again: ()
My point is NOT about the free will of the rapist, it is about the harm of the 3 year old girl! Why is this so hard to understand.
It is pretty simple. If the rapist doesnt' have the freedom to rape he has no free will. If the rapist has the freedom to rape the little girl must be rapeable.
Why did I have to connect so many dots for you? Don't you want to understand or do you just reject everything that doesn't fit your beliefs? Or do you not understand the English language?
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God wants us to obey. God does NOT want us to love and respect him out of free will. If he would WANT that, he wouldn't threaten us into obeying his rules.
So you object because God says if you ae a murderer you will go to hell? The fact that there are consequencs for your actions has nothing to do with God trying to force you to love him. It is moronic to think that anyone can force anyone to love him. So your idea is false.
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Even in Christianity, opinions are divided. Saint Paul, for example, has claimed that everyone who truly believed in Jesus and accepted him as Messiah would be excused for those petty sins.
That's not exactly what Paul taught. A Christian can't continue to live in sin and go to heaven. God forgives sin that is repented of. The repent means to agree with God that the behavior was wrong and to turn away from it, resolving to not do it again with God's help.
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My interpretation of "the eternity part" is: those who WANTED to be resurrected - and did what was necessary to - will be resurrected. Those who claimed God doesn't exist and they don't give a **** about him and afterlife wouldn't be, according to their wish. No eternal hell, just eternal nothingness, oblivion - exactly what the atheists believe in, actually. They die and that's it. They're gone. Yeah, no hell.
You are free to believe that, but it is not what the Bible teaches. Jesus spoke more of hell than of heaven.
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Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
No punishment means that there would be no accountability for your actions. An evil person who had a lot of power could murder millions and never answer for it. Hitler for instance. If there is no hell then he was never held accountable for his evil deeds.
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted July 16, 2009 09:38 PM |
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Why do you think everlasting punishment EQUALS everlasting torture?
Everlasting DEATH is also everlasting punishment. Why the torture part? What exactly is it for?
You are wrong about Paul too - I would give you a direct quote, my friend, but I'm too lazy to search for it. I remember it well though. That's exactly what he said.
Finally, Jesus, if I recall correctly, never mentioned everlasting TORTURE at all. I may be wrong here, obviously I don't remember every part of the New Testament.
and: God is just, but also, he's not a sadist, right? So why torture people? They were evil? Fine, they are dead. Good enough for a punishment if you ask me. Not wicked and cruel, but just. It's like the law humans use: punishment shouldn't be vengeance, and if you find justice in vengeance aka torturing somebody to satiate your need for "justice", you get it all wrong.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted July 16, 2009 10:18 PM |
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Finally, Jesus, if I recall correctly, never mentioned everlasting TORTURE at all. I may be wrong here, obviously I don't remember every part of the New Testament.
You are wrong.
Quote:
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
There are lots of verses that talk of eternal suffering if you want me to list more.
Quote:
You are wrong about Paul too - I would give you a direct quote, my friend, but I'm too lazy to search for it. I remember it well though. That's exactly what he said.
No, I'm not wrong. Paul taught no such concept as eternal security. A Christian must continue to repent when he sins or he will go to hell. Christians cannot live in sin and go to heaven.
1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Php 3:18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.
The Bible teaches time and time again that if you don't repent for your sins you perish. If you deny him, he denies you.
Only IF WE CONFESS does he forgive.
1 John 1
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
If we continue to live in sin we should be afraid. Very afraid.
Heb 10
23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
26For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Even if God has performed miracles through us if we turn our back on him and live in sin he will cast us out ("I never knew you" is a phrase that was used to disown/excommunite someone.)
Matthew 7
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Jude
5I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day
24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
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xerdux
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted July 16, 2009 10:28 PM |
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Im just curious. Are people actually sitting by the computer with a bible in their knees while posting in threads like these?
I cant even navigate in one of those books! Neither do I own one (though my dad read one as a book and not a religious text, he is interested in "history" too).
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JollyJoker
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posted July 16, 2009 10:35 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
God wants us to obey. God does NOT want us to love and respect him out of free will. If he would WANT that, he wouldn't threaten us into obeying his rules.
So you object because God says if you ae a murderer you will go to hell? The fact that there are consequencs for your actions has nothing to do with God trying to force you to love him. It is moronic to think that anyone can force anyone to love him. So your idea is false.
Yes, that's what I say. It's moronic to think that anyone can force anyone to love him. Since god is using force, he cannot want us to love him, he wants that we obey him - or he is an utter moron himself.
And, yes, I object, that God says anything at all about what we are allowed and what not. If we kill each other it's OUR business to deal with it. God doesen't twitch a muscle to help the victims, and as we all know, if you lean back and fold your arms, keep the hell quiet. Just because h's supposed to be GOD, I'm not required to fall on my knees and marvel.
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@ Doom
Well, that's what I wrote in the other post. I'm not the only one who sees certain problems with the Bible. Most people today would expect a god different than that described in the Bible.
But I think, as soon as you start doubting the validity of this abcient tome and start crossing out passages as unlikely or unwished for - why would you "believe what is left"? It my be the easiest way, but there is nothing that suggests credibility, certainly?
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TheDeath
Responsible
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with serious business
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posted July 16, 2009 10:38 PM |
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Quote:
Yes, that's what I say. It's moronic to think that anyone can force anyone to love him. Since god is using force, he cannot want us to love him, he wants that we obey him - or he is an utter moron himself.
Careful with hypocrisy. Should all parents treat their children the same regardless if those committed murder or something bad? Really?
What if you had 3 kids, and one of them stabbed the other two?
If you don't love him, treat him normally etc... you're a moron parent. Right?
lol
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Doomforge
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posted July 16, 2009 10:58 PM |
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Elodin, do you even know what does the "worm" stand for? That it was a figure used by Rabbis? Do you know that the fire is related to Gehenna which used to burn and destroy everything, not torture for ages or anything?
Where do you see eternal torture here? Eternal death, yes. Torture, no.
Why do you insist so heavily on the torture part? Do you take any pleasure in believing in a sadistic God?
Before you throw in a quote about the lake of fire: humans are not mentioned there, so please don't. Thanks in advance.
I will throw in the Paul quote later, I see you really don't know which one I have in mind.
JJ: I don't pick what suits me, I just find my own interpretation.
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TheDeath
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posted July 16, 2009 11:10 PM |
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Quote:
Why do you insist so heavily on the torture part? Do you take any pleasure in believing in a sadistic God?
No I see a sadistic Devil
Since I think Hell is the absence of God. Eternal death too, but that would apply, if there was no devil.
Just absence of God.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 16, 2009 11:40 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Yes, that's what I say. It's moronic to think that anyone can force anyone to love him. Since god is using force, he cannot want us to love him, he wants that we obey him - or he is an utter moron himself.
Careful with hypocrisy. Should all parents treat their children the same regardless if those committed murder or something bad? Really?
That's not the point. Do you know a parent who raises their children with, "if you kill someone I don't love you anymore?"
You know hat Jesus said about the sinners, didn't you?
So a parent should ask himself what HE may have made wrong, obviously, and IF one of hs children killed someone, then that parent should ask himself why hes child may have done that.
Man, this is so useless. Does really anyone think we need a god who puts the perpetrators into eternal pain? I can't help saying, that this is pathetic. I mean, we are talking about GOD here, not some county judge in Dumbhole, Doesntmatta, charging a Grandpa a 10$ fine for speeding on Wheelchair Lane.
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Elodin
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posted July 17, 2009 12:21 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 00:23, 17 Jul 2009.
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Yes, that's what I say. It's moronic to think that anyone can force anyone to love him. Since god is using force, he cannot want us to love him, he wants that we obey him - or he is an utter moron himself.
Lol!!! What is moronic is you think you should be able to get off without consequences for being a murderer.
You want to not be held accountable for your actions.
Quote:
And, yes, I object, that God says anything at all about what we are allowed and what not. If we kill each other it's OUR business to deal with it. God doesen't twitch a muscle to help the victims, and as we all know, if you lean back and fold your arms, keep the hell quiet. Just because h's supposed to be GOD, I'm not required to fall on my knees and marvel.
The thing is God cares if you kill other people. You may think you have a right to murder others and not be held accountable but you don't. Lol! It is moronic to say God is a moron.
Yeah, God usually doesn't prevent someone from being killed because in order for you to have free will you have to actually be able to act freely. A person has to be killable if you are free to kill.
You may escape justice in this world but when you stand before God you will ansawer for your deeds. Whether you thing you out to be free to murder without consequences or not.
Edit: Oh, it is moronic to say that God setting rules is trying to force someone to love him. Lol!!! Are parents who set rules for kids trying to get their kids to love them? Is Parlament passing laws trying to get others to love them? How moronic.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted July 17, 2009 12:36 AM |
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Elodin, do you even know what does the "worm" stand for? That it was a figure used by Rabbis? Do you know that the fire is related to Gehenna which used to burn and destroy everything, not torture for ages or anything?
The fire is a symbol for pain, not being instantly burned up. Same for the worms.
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Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal
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Everlasting punishment. Not being burned up, being punished.
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Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Resurrection of damnation. Damnation (condemnation) to hell.
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Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
This makes no sense at all if a person instantly burns up in hell. It means there will be no end to the punishment.
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Rev 20
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Revelation 21
7He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
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8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and snowmongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.
The believers will be with God, the unbelievers in hell.
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Rev 14
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Sorry, your claim that hell is not eternal torment just doesn't hold up.
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Why do you insist so heavily on the torture part? Do you take any pleasure in believing in a sadistic God?
No. I stand for truth, not for political correctness.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 17, 2009 06:39 AM |
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The only thing I see is that you stand for calling people moronic because they won't fall on their knees for praying to someone who'd judge homosexuals and members of other religions to eternal pain at some unspeakable place.
Don't you see that you could just believe in Hitler as well? Where will the Jews land? Hm? Do they believe in JC? Nope. So where will they land? And the homosexuals? Where will they land?
You, of course start to babble of murdering rapists who escape human justice.
Compared to the number of other poor suckers landing in hell those are a small minority, surely.
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gurrgoyl
Hired Hero
Looks like a book.
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posted July 17, 2009 07:01 AM |
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I'm sorry, does someone else here believe that god is neutral and doesn't really care what we do? And the god doesn't think like us because he's perfect and made of pure energy and totally beyond the human way of thinking....
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