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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 17, 2009 07:03 AM |
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I'm sorry, does someone else here believe that god is neutral and doesn't really care what we do? And the god doesn't think like us because he's perfect and made of pure energy and totally beyond the human way of thinking....
I agree, but isn't that the same as calling the universe God?
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 17, 2009 09:25 AM |
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The fire is a symbol for pain, not being instantly burned up. Same for the worms.
Fire is the symbol of cleansing. Worms are also related to Gehenna, but not to torture. I don't understand where do you get that eternal torture part.
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Everlasting punishment. Not being burned up, being punished.
And for you, punishment automatically means torture? Weird thinking. Punishment is second death, imho. Yes, it's eternal, if you haven't figured that out yet.
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Resurrection of damnation. Damnation (condemnation) to hell.
What a twisted way of interpretation.
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This makes no sense at all if a person instantly burns up in hell. It means there will be no end to the punishment.
And being DEAD for eternity isn't an endless punishment? think of it. You even quoted about second death, thanks for your trouble, but what does it prove except that I'm right? @_o
Perhaps to you "second death" means "endless torture". Not for me.
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No. I stand for truth, not for political correctness.
You don't stand for truth. You stand for your own interpretation. Stop believing you know the ultimate truth, please. You're worse then my mother. 
And you really must want that torture part pretty much. Weird for a Christian, but whatever.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 17, 2009 09:28 AM |
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And that's why catholicism rules. The way the vatican interprets it is the correct way and all else fails. I'm pretty sure anglicanism and the orthodox have a similar way of working. Now, those protestants...
Tsss, they can have any interpretation they want.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 17, 2009 09:30 AM |
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I unfortunately happen to be a Protestant 
seriously. There is more to being a Christian than blind-quoting certain parts. It's imho about grasping the bigger picture, not recalling every paragraph. Jesus wasn't very fond of scribes anyway.
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friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted July 17, 2009 10:15 AM |
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Ye gods, man, are you daft?! You're going to try to win a Bible quoting contest with Elodin?!
hehehehe I was wondering the same thing. I've got much more than a sack of feces though. I have in my bag a verse which will settle the matter once and for all.
*clears throat and tests microphone*
hello, hello? ahem... tonight I should like to quote Matthew 3:16-17, from the King James Version.
16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
*closes bible*
Thankyou, and goodnight.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted July 17, 2009 12:00 PM |
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Quote:
I'm sorry, does someone else here believe that god is neutral and doesn't really care what we do? And the god doesn't think like us because he's perfect and made of pure energy and totally beyond the human way of thinking....
I'd agree with the first statement, but not with the second.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted July 17, 2009 01:27 PM |
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I'm pretty sure anglicanism and the orthodox have a similar way of working.
More different than you'd think.
That's why the schism happened in the first place. 
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 17, 2009 06:07 PM |
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Quote:
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Don't you want to understand, or have I found a point where you don't find an answer in the bible?
I will try again: ()
My point is NOT about the free will of the rapist, it is about the harm of the 3 year old girl! Why is this so hard to understand.
It is pretty simple. If the rapist doesnt' have the freedom to rape he has no free will. If the rapist has the freedom to rape the little girl must be rapeable.
Why did I have to connect so many dots for you? Don't you want to understand or do you just reject everything that doesn't fit your beliefs? Or do you not understand the English language?
Hard if you don't have the right answer huh?
What you now (and before and before...) said is this:
FREE WILL = FREE ACTION
And if you believe that, you may recheck again how a movement or a motion happens.
I will repeat once again:
Preventing someone from ACTING does NOT prevent his FREE WILL, because THINKING (will) and ACTING are 2 different things (in any language.. )
If you want to jump from a bridge to commit suicide, and you jump and I catch ya half way before you smash on the ground, I did NOT interfere your WILL, but the RESULT of your will.
So saving an innocent wouldn't harm the FREE WILL of someone else. Not saving an innocent shows either there is no one who could take care at all, or he isn't interested.
No other (rational) conclusion. 
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 17, 2009 06:13 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm pretty sure anglicanism and the orthodox have a similar way of working.
More different than you'd think.
That's why the schism happened in the first place.
Well, I'll be damned if the schism didn't just happen because of some pontiff in Rome declaring a second emperor. And I'll be damned twice if you all interpret everything the way you want to, like those hippy-protestants!
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 17, 2009 06:52 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 18:55, 17 Jul 2009.
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The only thing I see is that you stand for calling people moronic because they won't fall on their knees for praying to someone who'd judge homosexuals and members of other religions to eternal pain at some unspeakable place.
Actually, it is moronic to say there are no reasonable beliefs, which is what you are said. I called your ideas moronic not you.
Oh, and you "renewed" the thread by calling God a cruel dictatorial arrogant lying mad scientist. Yeah, that is pretty moronic.
Sorry, like I said God making the rules does not make him moronic like you said. And it doesn't mean that by making rules he is trying to make you love him. Making rules lets you know that if you cross "this" line you are going to be held accountable.
You claimed you should be able to murder others and God should stay out of it. It doesn't work like that. God loves everyone and is offended when people do them wrong.
Oh, and I never said you or anyone else had to do anything. You make your own decision.
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Don't you see that you could just believe in Hitler as well?
Unlike you, I've never said one word against the Jews.
No, I couldn't support Hitler. It is you who said all children should be taught your religious beliefs with the force of the state.
It is you who said all beliefs are unreasonable and caused hostility. Hitler said Christianity is a disease. You are very anti-Christian and have made anti-Jewish statements. Hmmmmm looks like you could certainly be a believer in Hitler.
You said a child should be "protected" from "being brain-washed into separating peolpe into Jews, Catholics, Muslims and so on."
You claimed Jews say everyone else is a loser. "However, monotheism destroyed that paradise once and for all. Suddenly it went, there's ONE and ONLY one god, and you people out there are all losers (Jewish religion), because your gods are just fakes."
You claimed Jews are intollerant of other religions. "If you read the OT - which is an edited history of the Jewish people - you can read there that intolerance against other religions is a COMMANDMENT of that one and only god."
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You, of course start to babble of murdering rapists who escape human justice.
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Huh? What are you babbling about?
You claimed no one should be punished for any sin. That God should butt out of our lives and let us do whatever we wanted to whoever with no consequences. I said in the end even if you have escaped human justice you will have to face God and face his justice.
I'm sorry that you don't want God to hold anyone accountable for their actions but that is the way he set things up. God is God, not you JJ.
@Doomforge
I already showed that the Bible says "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night."
-TORMENT
-foever and ever
-no rest day nor night
You may not like the concept of eternal torment in hell but that is what the Bible teaches. Believe what you want to believe.
Quote:
Rev 14
9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
The second death is being cast into the lake of fire. NOT ceasing to exist.
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You don't stand for truth. You stand for your own interpretation. Stop believing you know the ultimate truth, please. You're worse then my mother.
And you really must want that torture part pretty much. Weird for a Christian, but whatever.
No, I believe what the Bible says. I could hardly call myself a Christian if I did otherwise.
@ angelito
Sorry, the term free will is a term that describe's man ability to do God's will or to act against God's will. It is not just "free thought."
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 17, 2009 07:04 PM |
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Yeah, that is pretty moronic.
No, it's an educated guess based on the information he has.
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Oh, and I never said you or anyone else had to do anything.
I know the christian religion is more about restrictions than obligations, but I cn think at last of a very important: love thy neighbour and everyone knows love is a verb. Suicide and revenge aren't...
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It is you who said all beliefs are unreasonable and caused hostility.
That's where you go twisting words around, I specifically read him state that they have the potential should they be pushed to extremes or should they be isolated.
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You are very anti-Christian
Elodin, if you keep calling him the enemy, then I have three things to say:
1) You will never give reasons, you only supply emotional arguments and bible quotes, both are of very little use in these arguments
2) We won't progress
3) That is not a christian thing to do.
Quote:
You claimed Jews are intollerant of other religions. "If you read the OT - which is an edited history of the Jewish people - you can read there that intolerance against other religions is a COMMANDMENT of that one and only god."
You're twisting words again, naughty elodin. That quote says that you can read intolerance as a commandment. So... Can is a modal verb, by the way. And secondly, the teachings don't equal the people/ like Jesus was against killing and thinks everyone can be forgiven and you support the death penalty for example.
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 17, 2009 07:21 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 19:21, 17 Jul 2009.
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Quote:
hehehehe I was wondering the same thing. I've got much more than a sack of feces though. I have in my bag a verse which will settle the matter once and for all.
*clears throat and tests microphone*
hello, hello? ahem... tonight I should like to quote Matthew 3:16-17, from the King James Version.
16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
*closes bible*
Thankyou, and goodnight.
Sorry, but have not proven what you think you have. There is a problem when you base a doctrine off of one verse lifted from a passage.
Son of God does not mean God Junior. Son of God means God existing as a man. God is not limited to existing in one way at a time. Do you recall in the Old Covenant times that at times God appeared in different ways?
For example, God appeared in the burning bush, as the Angel of the Lord, the pillar of cloud, the pillar of fire, the Rock that followed the Israelites in the wilderness, the Shekiniah glory, ect. Were those all different persons of God or different manifestations of God? Different manifestations of God, obviously.
In the verse you quoted we don't see 3 different persons of God. We see three different manifestaions of God. God speaking from heaven, the fleshly manifestation of God on earth, and the manifestaion of God in the form of a dove. The dove form was for the benefit of John you may recall.
I submit to you that Jesus is the visilbe fleshly manifestation of God. Not a second God or a second person distinct from God. Jesus is the ultimate revelation of the one true God. Now let us take a look at other Scripture.
The apostolic doctrine is that Jesus is both LORD (Jehovah, the one true God) and Christ (the man promised to redeem us.) That God laid down the human life that he had taken up for us.
The apostle Peter preached this on the day of Pentecost.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Paul preached this.
1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
John preached this.
1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
Jesus taught this.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
1) God is a spirit. Spirits don't have flesh and bone.
John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
The Bible sometimes uses figures of speech to refer to God as having body parts, but they are just that. We'll get back to that point.
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2) Now, who exactly is Jesus? Isaiah says Jesus it the Mighty God, the Everlasting God born into the world as the Son. .
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Now is that what Paul said? Yes.
Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
So Jesus is God the Father manifest in flesh.
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3) The Bible uses figures of speech to speak of God in a human way so we can understand just what the heck is being talked about.
--The Finger of God:
Luke 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.
Does this say that Jesus uses a big ol' finger of God hanging up in the sky to cast out devils or to squash them like a bug? I think not.
--
The Right Hand of God
Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Did Stephen look up into heaven and see Jesus standing on God's big ol' right hand? I think not. If he did, what is that glory of God that he saw too? Is the "glory of God" the fourth member of the Godhead?
Psa 63:8 My soul followeth hard after thee: thy right hand upholdeth me.
Did God's big ol' right hand follow David around every day holding him up all the time? No, I think not.
What does the right hand of God mean then? It represents God's power.
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Jesus Christ has all of the power of God. Why does Jesus have all the power of God? Because he is God (Jehovah.)
John 20
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
So Jesus told Thomas that he is blessed for believing that he is Jehovah, the Lord our God. You see, the Son is not a second person of some mysterious trinity. The Son is Jehovah (the one true God) in flesh. The Son is not a different person from Jehovah. The Son is God existing as a man.
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The confession of the Old Testament is
Deut 6
4.... The LORD our God is one LORD:
This is New Testament confession also as.
1 Cor 12...Jesus is the Lord.
Jesus is Jehovah in flesh. Jehovah in flesh is called the Son.
As a son I became a husband and a father. I did not become 3 people, but am only a single person. So too when the Father took on flesh to become the Son another person was not produced. Jesus Christ is God existing as a man without ceasing to exist as the eternal omnipotent ever present Spirit.
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The Lord indwelling those who obey the gospel of Christ is fundamental to the gospel. The Lord indwells his people as the Holy Ghost. Holy Spirit = Spirit of God = Spirit of Christ. Christ the Lord is the Spirit.
2 Cor 3 :14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Do you see it? Christ is the Spirit, the Spirit of the Lord (Spirit of Jehovah)
2 Cor 13 :5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Romans 8 :9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
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Jesus is the way precisely because he is the Everlasting Father existing as a man (as Isaiah 9:6 prophesied.)
Jesus Christ is the mediator, the bridge between humanity and Deity because 2000 years ago Deity chose to begin to exist simultaneously as a human being. God did not stop being the omniscient omnipotent spirit but also began to exist as a real human being, Jesus Christ. That is called the Incarnation. After the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ he promised to be with his followers as the Holy Spirit. Jesus is talking about himself coming to us as the Holy Spirit.
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Jesus is the one who came to the disciples. He came to them in a different way, a different manifestation from that of his presence in a physical body.
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father
Php 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
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Jesus is the "Spirit of truth"
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
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The "comforter" is the "Spirit of Christ"
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
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The "Spirit of Christ" is the "Holy Spirit" is the "Spirit of Truth"
John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
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There is only one divine Spirit
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
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The Spirit of God visited His creation in flesh as the "Son".
I Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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Jesus IS the "everlasting Father" in flesh.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
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Jesus is not a separate person from the Father. God is one. Jesus is the Father existing as a real human being. The Father did not cease to exist as the eternal all powerful Spirit when he began to exist as a man. There is only one God who has always existed as a spirit and who 2000 years ago began to exist as a human being while continuing to exist as the eternal spirit. Jews knew there was only one God.
John 20 :27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God.
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
The relationship between the humanity and deity of Jesus is greatly misunderstood by most Christians. Unfortunately most folks don't really understand who the New Testament claims that Jesus is. This is a rather long post but I am trying to be thorough and leave no misunderstanding.. I don't believe in the Trinity concept of God. I believe that God is one God, one LORD, one Spirit. He is not a family of beings who call themselves God. He is a singular person. It is impossible that there could be three coequal Almighty beings who share the title "God." Almighty means having all power.
The heart-cry of both the Old and New Testament is that there is only one God. I contend that Jesus Christ is the one and only God, the God who said to Moses "I AM" existing as a human being.
Son of God = Son of Man = Christ = Messiah = God in flesh
All of those refer to God becoming a human being to save us from our sins. There is only one God and he ain't a group of spirits that calls himself God. Jesus is not "a" god or "a" LORD. He is the one and only God, the one and only LORD existing as a human being. That is clearly taught in both the Old and the New Testament.
The phrase "son of God" is a messianic title. It does not mean that Jesus is God Junior. Jesus is also called Son of man, another messianic title. Son of God/Son of Man refers to the fact that the Almighty God was born into this world 2000 years ago as a baby boy who was a man and yet was also the God who created everything that exists. God himself became the Christ that he had promised would pay the price for sin.
The Old Testament predicted that the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, would be born in Bethlehem. Of course, he existed before then, but that is the point where he took on humanity. God took on human flesh and became the Christ to save us from our sins. He had to have a human body to do that.
Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Micah 5 :2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
We find this was fulfilled and recorded in the gospels.
Luke 2 :10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
12 And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
God (existing as a man) went on to die on a cross
Corinthians 2 :7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
It was the blood of God (existing as a man) that was shed.
Acts 20 :28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
The Almighty God himself became the Lamb of God to die a sacrificial death for us.
Revelation 1 :7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 4 :8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
Jesus said in essence, "if you are looking at me you are looking at the Father" because as I have shown, the Father took on flesh and became known as Jesus Christ.
John 14 :7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
Jesus Christ, our Everlasting Father in flesh, is the only God, the only Savior.
Isaiah 43 :10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Look back up to Luke 2:11
For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
(Lord with a capital L is always God, Jehovah)
Oh, wonder of wonders that my God would take on a human existence to die for me!
I John 3: 16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
God did not, by the way, stop being everywhere at the same time because of his incarnation as a man. He did not cease to exist in the way that he has always existed. The incarnation is God taking on another existence in addition to the way he has always existed. When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus he said was in heaven at the same time.
John 3 :12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
The incarnation of God did have limited knowledge though (but not limited knowledge as the Spirit who transcends space and time.) God lived a completely human life in Jesus Christ.
God has always existed as a spirit. In the Incarnation God began to also exist as a human being at the same time as his existence as a spirit.
After the incarnation God exists as the eternal spirit and also as a man who is God existing as a human being. That incarnation is not a separate person but another way that God exists.
Deut 6 :4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
I want to emphasize that God did not "put on a robe of humanity." He began to exist as an actual real human being without ceasing to exist as the Spirit who is everywhere.
Neither did a separate god come into existence. God is existing at the same time as a spirit and as a man. There are not 2 people here. There is one God existing as an ever-present and all powerful spirit and as a real man at the same time.
Only as a completely real human being could God die for our sins. This is the "mystery of godliness."
1 Tim 3. :15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
1 Cor 8 :6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Romans 9 :5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
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This mystery that God became the Christ himself by beginning to exist as the man Jesus is the truth that the church is supposed to be the pillar and ground of.
1 Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
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This mystery is the gospel Paul preached. It is not a mystery of a mysterious trinity that can't be understood. It is the revealed good news that our God, the Lord of glory, became flesh to die for us.
Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
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This mystery is the gospel Peter preached. Jesus is both LORD (Jehovah) and Christ.
Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
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The church is supposed to be the pillar and ground of the truth of this mystery because we must know that the Lord our God is one Lord and that Jesus is that one Lord (I AM) or we will die in our sins.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
The Lord our God is one Lord. Jesus is Lord.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted July 18, 2009 01:49 AM |
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Y'know all of this descending is in EVERY Religion. And they all clearly say that their god descends. Have you ever heared of the book the Chariots of the Gods? Ezekiel, Enoch, Abraham, and all accounts of all other times they saw an Angel or saw God all Relate so closely together.
Have you ever once considered that there might be a logical and more Scientific Reason why? Have you ever wondered why there were only these encounters in the Ancient times? Have you ever imagined the possibilities of An Organism descending from the sky?
Imagine 4000 years ago. During that time our world was very similar to that in the past. We had People, Civilization, and Technology. But there were also so many differences. No electricity, more Animal species than today, and there was Nothing in the sky except Birds and Clouds. Or was there something else? Could it be possible that An Alien species visited the Earth, provided help for Civilization, and left so suddenly? There might be much more evidence then you think.
Look back at EVERY Civilization on the earth. They all always had Religion. And they all had their Stories. Infact, EVERY Religion with Gods has a story when the Gods Descended. Christianity, judaism, Taoism, Islam, Greek Gods. All of them! And so if the real God exists, then howcome all other Religions have their own story of their own Gods Descending. They must be right in their own way of course. And did they leave clues? You' betcha!
Look at Scripture itself. It has details of God himself Descending down to Earth! And ask yourself this. Why would a God like the Christian God come down to Earth. he has no business there. He influences the lives of Certain Individuals, but for what purpose? To spread his own word? Unlikely if people know God so well beforehand, then it's already widespread enough. But for what reason?
What if God came down to Earth because he did not know Earth? If God came to Earth then He needs a reason but why? If he would spread his own word, then why did he Descend to other people with different Religions? It doesn't make any sense! But, if An Alien species came to Earth then there's a reason! Why would a Human go to an Alien Planet? For knowledge! We wanna know about Extraterrestrial life don't we? Wouldn't an Alien Species be interested in us?
But that isn't my only proof. All accounts of this involve bright lights and Organisms. Technology, lights, and Organisms oh my! It's oddly suspicious. But look at artifacts. There have been so many carvings, idols, figurines, and other items that show what look like to be Alien Entities. And what about structures? The Pyramids of Giza were said to be built within 20 years of Construction. But even with Todays Technology we can't do it easily! Could there have been some Divine intervention? Or some Extraterrestrial Intervention?
But how come in Today's Society we Don't have so many Recordings of Gods descending to the Earth? That's because we can recognize an Alien sighting. Today when an Alien sighting takes place, then usually people see technology, Lights, and Organisms. But these are what we know as common Alien sightings. 4000 Years ago, the Earth was very much different. Nothing was in the sky that was of Technology. So people thought they saw only magical powers of God and Gods. But there are some exceptions. In WWII There were some tribes near battlefields that had no idea of Civilizations. When Allied Forces Came to drop down supplies and food for these tribes they thought that the Planes that dropped down Supplies were Deities! What did they do? the built actual Wooden Replicas of these planes to try to get their attention and bring back the Supplies and food.
Did Religion be affected by Extraterrestrials? Likely. Did Religion get set up because of Extraterrestrials? Unlikely... sort of. Every Culture needed some way of explaining the Universe. And of course people turned to Deities and Demigods. But it changes and varies in Cultures. Really, religion is used for two things. Explanation and Leadership. It sets up the Leaders. And it also explains everything. And sometimes they need to go further and develop Standards. But is Religion so bad?
Is Religion bad? It could be. Basically if you look at Christianity the Old Testaments were about RESPECT the SAINTS. And the New Testaments are all about LOVE EVERYONE. Seems good enough. What made it so popular is that no matter how poor you were, you would go into Heaven. That sounds pretty good. But now today. Homosexuals go into Hell. Atheists go into Hell. All other Religions go into Hell. Bigots go to heaven, while Lovers go into Hell. Sounds pretty bad to me.
Now is Religion good or bad? Did Aliens go to Earth Thousands of Years ago? Is Religion Necessary? It depends on what you think. But you can believe anything. It's fine.
here are some links to stuff I talked about.
Chariots of The Gods.
Alien Artifacts.
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Vini Vidi Vici
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 18, 2009 03:24 AM |
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Elodin:
Who cares what Paul wrote? He was just some guy who might've had a stroke, fell off his donkey, and started to preach.
Kraken:
...No. What you're describing is as ridiculous as any religion.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted July 18, 2009 04:23 AM |
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Quote:
Who cares what Paul wrote? He was just some guy who might've had a stroke, fell off his donkey, and started to preach.
But still hated women.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 18, 2009 05:55 AM |
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Quote:
Elodin:
Who cares what Paul wrote? He was just some guy who might've had a stroke, fell off his donkey, and started to preach.
What Paul wrote (and I quoted more than Paul) is certainly more reasonable than thinking everything came into being from absolute nothing with absolutely no cause, violating the laws of thermodynamics. Or the dogma that the univere is eternal.
I would be far more inclined to say an atheist had a stroke, fell off his donkey, and started to preach (his religion of atheism.) Really, some atheists on this board preach more than most evangelicals.
@Corribus
No, Paul did not hate women.
Are women superior because they bear children and men cannot? Nope.
Are men superior because they are the spiritual leaders? Nope. Or perhaps you are claiming that Obama is superior to you because he is President of the US?
Men and women were both created in the image of God. Both have different biological, social, and spiritual functions.
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Kraken
Famous Hero
I just love being elemental
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posted July 18, 2009 02:25 PM |
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You really think that atheism is a Religion?
And if Men and Women were created in the Image of God, then doesn't that mean that God is a Man and a Woman?
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Vini Vidi Vici
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 18, 2009 02:50 PM |
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Kraken, didn't you know God is all sexes and races? And a white male of course...
Quote:
social
Huh?
Women are socially exactly the same as men...
Biologically and culturally they may differ, but... Of course, we may be speaking of different things...
They should be allowed to have the same rolein society as men have. Of course, if I were to guess, you would be a fanatic supporter of traditional gender roles...
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted July 18, 2009 08:56 PM |
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Quote:
@ angelito
Sorry, the term free will is a term that describe's man ability to do God's will or to act against God's will. It is not just "free thought."
I guess this is your PERSONAL interpretation, or do you have source for that?
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted July 18, 2009 09:52 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 22:04, 18 Jul 2009.
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Quote:
You really think that atheism is a Religion?
And if Men and Women were created in the Image of God, then doesn't that mean that God is a Man and a Woman?
Yes. The US Supreme Court said it is a religion and the atheists take things by faith that they can't prove.
Quote:
Of course, if I were to guess, you would be a fanatic supporter of traditional gender roles...
No, fanatic.
But mean are better at some things and womeman are better at others. For example women are usually better at nutruring and comforting others. They also are usually better at language skills and expressing their feelings. Women develop more close friendships than men do as a gerneral rule. Anyone who things the diffrences between a man and a woman are merely sex organs knows nothing of life.
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I guess this is your PERSONAL interpretation, or do you have source for that?
The term "free will" is not in the Bible. It describes what the Bible teaches.
Quote:
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
Notice it says for YOU to chose.
Moreover, God gave lots of commandments in the Bible. If you had no choice but to obey them obvilusly there would be no reason to give them.
God said "Thou shalt not murder." Some people do murder so obviouly it is possible for you to go what God does not want you to do.
God says he wants everyone to repent of their sins but not everyone will repent of their sins.
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2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
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That's where you go twisting words around, I specifically read him state that they have the potential should they be pushed to extremes or should they be isolated.
Be his apologist if you want. The words speak for themselve. You are telling false things.
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I agree with Corribus in the other thread. "Odd" is not really a fitting label for a belief because that would suggest there are reasonable ones.
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You're twisting words again, naughty elodin.
I'm not twisting anything around. He said I was a believer in Hitler, which is a lie. He is the one who has made anti-Jewish and anti-Christian statements, like Hitler.
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Elodin, if you keep calling him the enemy, then I have three things to say:
I did not say he is my enemy. I said he is anti-Christian based on the words he speaks.
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