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Shadey
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 01, 2007 01:37 PM |
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As for proving nonexistance... my point remains the same as before. I have said you don't need to prove something doesn't exist in order to discount it (such as discounting the Boogey man with no evidence against his existence), yet you say you do have to provide evidence for something that doesn't exist. I don't know what else to say other than I disagree with the fundamentals of this statement.
As for my assertion, it is clear: We cannot possibly know in our lifetime whether or not a higher power exists, and as such it cannot affect us and leaves no logical option other than to be ignored.
Shadey, what are your thoughts on the binding of Isaac?
So at this point you need to define exactly what you are. Are you an atheist, a fake atheist, a skeptic, or an agnostic? I have a perty good idea. As you ponder that question, I'll prepare an answer for yours.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted November 01, 2007 01:52 PM |
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@Shadey
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I hope you have evidence for that assertion. Otherwise that is a troll post and a flame.
I have posted it before.
For a start before Christianity, Judaism was the only monotheistic religion dominant at the time and had no competition.
Then (from an outsider's perspective) Jesus came along and knowingly and willingly accused this religion and the laws of the time and as a result was crucified (I would hope you would know this...) leaving the Jews with nothing but blame for killing the son of God for all eternity, and the accusation of heresy.
I mean, the evidence is everywhere you look on that Crucifix.
It effectively labeled Jews as blood thirsty god-killers and the only possible Christian response to this is, well, it's their fault that they're bloodthirsty god killers. Which is exactly my point.
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So at this point you need to define exactly what you are. Are you an atheist, a fake atheist, a skeptic, or an agnostic? I have a perty good idea. As you ponder that question, I'll prepare an answer for yours.
If you want a label I'm an Agnostic Atheist who really doesn't care so long as beliefs do not transgress with my life, as they do on a nearly daily basis.
@The topic of homosexuality (again)
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If they sodomise, they commit a sin. They need to confess that in a Church.
I think the Church is the last place they should confess.
I mean, consensual, private, homosexuality hurts no one and affects no one really, I don't see why the Church cares so much, apart from the fact that someone high up is straight and finds it gross. It has no bad consequences for anyone, just not to Christians' liking.
But when you consider the quotes of Gary Potter, President of the Catholics for Christian Political Action,
'When the CHristian majority takes over this country, there will be no satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not permit anybody the right to practice evil.'
Or even more revolting is Paster Fred Phelps, of the Westboro Baptist Church, who made a picket for when Martin Luther King's widow died, reading:
'God Hates Fags @ Fag-Enablers!! Ergo, God hates Coretta Scott King and is now tormenting her with fire and brimstone where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched, and the smoke of her torment ascendeth up for ever and ever'
Now obviously you will claim that the words of one man mean nothing, but you have to remember that this man has organized 22,000 anti-homosexual demonstrations since 1991 (one every four days on average  ) displaying slogans such as 'THANK GOD FOR AIDS' and his alarming number of rallied supporters, not to mention his website where he counts the minutes of how long homosexuals have been tormented in hell...
In Afghanistan, the official punishment under the Taliban was execution through burial alive under a wall pushed over the victim by a tank. 
In 1953 British mathematician Alan Turing (attributed the father of the computer) was found guilty of private consensual homosexual behaviour, and was offered a choice between two years in prison (imagine the other inmates) or hormone therapy which would amount to chemical castration and the growth of breasts. He chose to take his own life by eating an apple injected with cyanide.
So do you really think a born homosexual is going to confess to the Church?
The condemnation of homosexuality and other things that people do in the privacy of their own bedroom is pointless and does nothing but contribute to the vast levels of human misery in this world.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted November 01, 2007 02:07 PM |
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Uhm, no offense but, who are you trying to convince? You're talking to people who think they are right and you are wrong, no matter what is being said.
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Nidhgrin
Honorable
Famous Hero
baking cookies from stardust
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posted November 01, 2007 05:08 PM |
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Edited by Nidhgrin at 17:23, 01 Nov 2007.
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@Nidhgrin:
For the most part I agree with you. But here's the deal, discussion about religion is doomed to fail to begin with if the religious counterparts don't even get this fundamental fact:
"The bible does NOT necessarily contain facts".
Doesn't matter WHAT religious discussion you look at, all the time you will see believers quote paragraphs from their holy book as "proof", as "facts".
This is a fundamental flaw, and objective discussion is simply not possible when they don't want to acknowledge there IS the possibility that their little book does NOT contain truth.
Intelligent discussion should be based on logic, not on quoting fairytales as "proof".
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not an Atheist, I am willing to believe there is a higher deity. However, I simply refuse to believe that if there IS a deity, it's the type that's fully known and described in a crappy 2000+ year old book written by superstitious monks. (Let's not even BEGIN about the more logical theory that rich people needed a way of keeping the masses in line to work for them...)
I'm willing to think people are free to believe whatever they want, but it's people like Zan who force their believes as facts onto me that makes me LOATHE them.
That's just how it is.
Moonlith, I (almost) fully agree. A literal interpretation of the bible (which is by the way ALWAYS influenced by ones personal point of view, and thus not absolute) goes in against every form of logic sense.
Then again, self relativation forces me to consider the possibility (no matter how infinitely small) that in fact the biblical God exists in some form, and that the bible in fact is a holy book, written by divinely inspired men.
Because it happened so far in the past, and because we don't have enough data or facts to prove the existance of God false (something that will probably never be possible), you cannot fully exclude the possibility that God might exist.
Now, supposing God does exist but is in an unconscious state - call it some sort of silent mastermind or creator of the universe. What good would it do to worship such an entity, since it is unable to change or alter anything in reality anyways?
Suppose God exists in some conscious form, as the biblical God is supposed to be. Why on earth would you want to put your faith in an entity, which chooses to mislead half of his possible followers by placing fake evidence against his own existance, while at the same time inspring men to write 'holy' books that allow the believers to chase down and burn the other half at the stake for being heretics?
My point is, I'm not really an atheist, because if some sort of supernatural entity would exist, I suppose it would have better things to do than meddle with individual followers. Since we have free will as human beings, I suggest you use it to help other people, instead of wasting time trying to convince other people of an idea, while hurting or limiting their personal freedom doing so. THAT is an evil thing to do!
EDIT: If you are a believer, and gain strength from your faith, without judging people who believe in something else - I wouldn't mind hearing your story, because I think your faith touches the original intention of religion...
Then there's a nice definition on fundamentalism that I found:
Fundamentalism is a religious position typically characterized by a rigid adherence to what are perceived to be the most basic and traditional principles and beliefs of that religion.
The term originated in America as a part of Christianity when The Fundamentals: A Testimony of the Truth was published between 1910 and 1912 - a 12-volume set of books outlining the "fundamental" beliefs which were supposed to be required of all Christians.
The following are "fundamentals of the faith" according to most born again believers:
- The infallibility and inspiration of Scripture.
- The virgin birth of Christ and the Deity of Christ.
- The substitutionary death of Jesus Christ for sinners and the blood atonement.
- The bodily resurrection of Christ and His visible return to earth.
- A judgment of the saved and lost followed by a literal heaven and a literal hell.
Although fundamentalists like to regard themselves as heirs of original Christianity, this is not an accurate view because fundamentalism has emphasized certain doctrines which were never very important within the Christian tradition and which do not appear to have played any particular role in the early church. Among these new doctrines are dispensationalism, premillanialism and biblical inerrancy.
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ZanJerusalem
Disgraceful
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 01, 2007 05:22 PM |
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I don't like fundamentalists. They seems to have forgot the most important message of Christ: Love.
And the fact that they are protestant fanatics. They hate us Catholics.
And their KJV bible is based on the Textus Receptus, a small collection of medieval Byzantine scripts, not on the original texts.
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A literal interpretation of the bible (which is by the way ALWAYS influenced by ones personal point of view, and thus not absolute) goes in against every form of logic sense.
How so? And it does not have to be influenced by ones personal point of view, if you try to build your house on the rock and follow the teachings of His Holiness the Pope, Christs Vicar.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 01, 2007 08:54 PM |
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Really now, can you honestly say that electricity makes life worth living?
I'm not saying it's electricity that makes life worth living. I'm saying that if you have access to electricity you should compare your life to that of those that don't. It's vastly better, and you don't see most of them contemplating suicide.
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And people who want to commit suicide are unreachable by logic, eh?
If, even after considering all of these facts, still decide to commit suicide, then, yes, they are unreachable.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted November 01, 2007 09:01 PM |
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it does not have to be influenced by ones personal point of view
Am I reading you wrong, or does this basically say we should not form our own opinion about the bible, the church, Christ, F/S/HS, and all of it, but should instead just go with the Pope's view? Good plan. Hypothetically, if he were to say that the bible states that Slavery is okay, should we not start enslaving people?
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted November 02, 2007 02:23 AM |
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Although fundamentalists like to regard themselves as heirs of original Christianity, this is not an accurate view because fundamentalism has emphasized certain doctrines which were never very important within the Christian tradition and which do not appear to have played any particular role in the early church. Among these new doctrines are dispensationalism, premillanialism and biblical inerrancy.
One area in which they actually can be seen as heirs to the "original" Christianity (i.e. the "Ancient Church" -- sorry about the imprecise terminology, but I'm unsure as to what the early Christian Church is called in English, and "the Ancient Church" or "the Church of Antiquity" is the best translation of the Norwegian term I can think of) is in their focus on an impending Apocalypse. Both historical records and archaeological findings suggest that the Early Christians were convinced that the End of Days was imminent, and that the decadence of the Roman Empire was a tell-tale sign of this. It's been a couple of years since I read Revelations, but I seem to remember that book as becoming much more understandable once you keep this perspective in mind.
Then again, they share this "Apocalyptism" (you English with your fancy language probably has a real term for this) with the majority of Christians prior to the Age of Enlightenment, so it's not really saying much...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 02, 2007 03:39 AM |
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@Terje
I believe the term you are searching for is paleochristian, which covers everything from the death of Jesus through the first council of Nicaea (300 something AD).
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted November 03, 2007 02:43 PM |
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@Zan on evolution:
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Is it not a beneficial mutation?
No, such is the nature of Bacteria.
The nature of bacteria, and viruses, and animals, and... well everything?
The same thing happens when you introduce rat poison to a population of rats. There is already variation in genotype present in the rats. The variation in genotype results in phenotypic variation in terms of resistance to rat poison, due to a beneficial mutation. When the rat poison is introduced the rats that are resistant survive and reproduce. Their offspring inherit the alleles for resistance. Those rats that were not resistant died and did not contribute to the future gene pool. Eventually over many generations the frequency for resistance increases.
It's really schoolboy stuff. Just that bacteria and viruses tend to have a short generation time and even people with a short attention span can watch it happening.
Creationism states the immutability of species. This implies that the allele frequencies of a population remains static. The simple experiment described above proves that they are not static, and are in fact constantly changing.
You could go on with arguing "Such is the nature of rats... animals..." but if you keep going I think you'll find you'll eventually agree in that "Such is the nature of all life."
Evolution is an observable, recordable, fact.
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John says to live above hell.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted November 03, 2007 03:24 PM |
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Quote:
schoolboy
Or schoolgirl.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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ZanJerusalem
Disgraceful
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 03, 2007 03:28 PM |
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Evolution is Not a fact. It is a lie made up my infidel "scientists".
Look: Science has recently proven that if we were to learn something new every second, we would take well over 3 millions years to exhaust the memory capacity of our brains.
A little question here: How is it possible for us to have a brain that could hold enough info to last over 3 millions years, when all we can live up to is 90 years?
You are wrong about rats plague. Of course some will survive, as some rats are stronger than others, just like the cause of Black Death.
And I don't care what your heathen schools tells you. Indoctrination does more bad than good. That's why Catholic schools are needed.
I think that some of you Atheists are narrow-minded and I suspect, no offense, but I suspect that some of you only speak with other Atheists and get the imagination that it's hard to be a creationist in these days. Look around you! It's actually quite the opposite, your "scientists" and their lies are in retreat and will soon disappear completely. Get baptized in the Catholic Church now and you will be saved!
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted November 03, 2007 03:46 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 15:49, 03 Nov 2007.
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Evolution is Not a fact. It is a lie made up my infidel "scientists".
Dude in my entire life I have never heared anything more brainwashed and ignorant in my entire life. Honestly do you know what logic means? I'm christian but I'm protestant so you'll probably not count me as a "true" christian. How can you say that evolution is a lie?! It has been proven over and over again!! Even today we have usefull mutation that secure the existence of a species! look at the rabbits in australia if you don't belive me... They were supposed to be killed by an virus but SOME rabbits survived and TAAADA their children had genes that made them immune to the virus that was suppose to kill them. This is a FACT. It's also called Evolution.
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I think that some of you Atheists are narrow-minded
Says mister I-know-the-truth-I-shall-not-compromise-everything-the-bible-says-is-true-there-is-no-other-way. COME ON!!
The thrid post on this page by Nidhgrin and Moonlith sums it up perfectly. How can you talk about narrow-mindedness when you yourself don't accept or even compromise a bit?! It is of no use to debate with you as the words "logic" and "reason" obviously don't apply to you. I'm not meaning to insult you or anything but you must be able to understand that a discussion is only possible if you have an open mind! I mean come on the church said that the earth was in the middel of the universe and that it was flat... now they also said that this were facts... who turned out to be right? The infidel Galileo Galilei or the Pope? Lol I'd rather be an infidel than anything you consider a "true beliver".
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted November 03, 2007 04:10 PM |
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Look: Science has recently proven that if we were to learn something new every second, we would take well over 3 millions years to exhaust the memory capacity of our brains.
A little question here: How is it possible for us to have a brain that could hold enough info to last over 3 millions years, when all we can live up to is 90 years?
This doesn't mean that we can do this, they mean that the brain has so much capacity for learning that it can hold 3 million years worth of information. They are not saying that we can live that long, just that that's how big our memories are.
Also, people can live well past 90.
Here's another monkeywrench: God Created Adam and Eve right? Then they had Cain and Able. Cain ran off, and the bible says,
"Cain and his wife had a son."
-Genesis 4:17
Where did she come from? I mean, wouldn't the bible mention if god had created more people? I mean, seriously who is she?
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted November 03, 2007 04:30 PM |
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Okay, next time you're ill, go to your local priest, not a doctor.
Because your doctor's knowledge is based on...
SCIENCE
Cancer needs to be exorcised, duh.
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Yolk and God bless.
---
My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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Gallow
Bad-mannered
Known Hero
Avenger
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posted November 03, 2007 04:33 PM |
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zamnjerusalem dont waste your words here,no matter what you wanna show,your beliefs,they will laugh at you,or me or other person who believes,just read that part in the bible it says how the humanity would be in these days or some years more in the future,but that yes,keep defending yourself.And this forum is not the right for talk about this too,so i dont care if some believe in evolution and stuff,or some in god,but when the atheist attack,then i will defend it.
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Magister180888
Known Hero
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posted November 03, 2007 05:16 PM |
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Evolution is Not a fact. It is a lie made up my infidel "scientists".
And I don't care what your heathen schools tells you. Indotrination does more bad than good. That's why Catholic schools are needed.
I think that some of you Atheists are narrow-minded and I suspect, no offense, but I suspect that some of you only speak with other Atheists and get the imagination that it's hard to be a creationist in these days. Get baptized in the Catholic Church now and you will be saved!
...er...I think you are the one who is indoctrined here. Sorry, but i think you only speak about god. Indeed, it seems you know the bible by earth, which i think is not a normal thing for a 15 years boy.
Well, i don't really believe that because somebody put some water on the head of a baby that he becomes nice...no.
Well, some people have buddhist(doctrin not a religion), christian, and muslim friends; but they are not so "fanatic"(?) as you ( i am talking about buddhist(doctrin not a religion), christian, and muslim friends). Sorry if the word fanatic annoys you.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 03, 2007 05:36 PM |
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Evolution is Not a fact. It is a lie made up my infidel "scientists".
Perhaps you'd be so kind as to explain what motivation the "infidel scientists" had to do so.
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted November 03, 2007 07:17 PM |
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well you have to admit in a way that for every correct theory theres a hundred of them that are wrong.
But evoloution is almost as close to fact as you can get. Just accept it and then wonder why we were there to evolve in the first place.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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ZanJerusalem
Disgraceful
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 04, 2007 12:45 AM |
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Honestly do you know what logic means?
I find this quite offensive.
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I'm christian but I'm protestant so you'll probably not count me as a "true" christian.
I do not hate you for misguided by heresy, deceived from the One True Church by false prophets, but I hate all heresy. Heresy is worse than Schism!
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How can you say that evolution is a lie?!
It's unbiblical and has no proof to back up it's claims. It was made to harm Christianity and to fool the stupid majority to go away from Christ, yet they have succeeded poorly as people begins realize it's all a lie.
I am quite surprised that you do not agree with me here. I thought most Protestants where Fundamentalists...
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It has been proven over and over again!!
It has never been proved. Never with watertight evidence. It's all theories made by atheists, by infidels, with the sole intention on harming Christendom.
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hey were supposed to be killed by an virus but SOME rabbits survived and TAAADA their children had genes that made them immune to the virus that was suppose to kill them.
That's not evolution. That's using the antibodies and the resistance God gave some of them. Same thing happened to us Europeans during the Black death.
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This is a FACT.
In the name of the trinity God, our Saviour Jesus Christ and the Most Holy Theotokos, I demand you, servant of God, to stop supporting these false lies as they go against the Bible, God's infallible words.
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the church said that the earth was in the middle of the universe
That has more to do with the lack of education of the Authorities in the Independent City of Tuscany, than with the Church and his Holiness the Pope.
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and that it was flat...
No Pope has ever made an official statement about this. There has always been a group of educated people knowing that the world was round since Ancient Greece.
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God Created Adam and Eve right? Then they had Cain and Able. Cain ran off, and the bible says,
"Cain and his wife had a son."
-Genesis 4:17
Where did she come from? I mean, wouldn't the bible mention if god had created more people? I mean, seriously who is she?
According to the Book of Jubilees; Cain settled down, marrying his sister, Awan, resulting in his first son, Enoch. I don't know if this is approved as the truth by the Church, however.
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Because your doctor's knowledge is based on...
SCIENCE
I like science. There are Creationist scientists, you know.
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zamnjerusalem dont waste your words here,no matter what you wanna show,your beliefs,they will laugh at you,or me or other person who believes,just read that part in the bible it says how the humanity would be in these days or some years more in the future,but that yes,keep defending yourself.And this forum is not the right for talk about this too,so i dont care if some believe in evolution and stuff,or some in god,but when the atheist attack,then i will defend it.
We shall see...
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Indeed, it seems you know the bible by earth, which i think is not a normal thing for a 15 years boy.
Nach I learnt most of it myself. I read what I like mostly the New testament.
If I found a verse or a couple of verses which I can use to combat heresy, I record it, however.
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Perhaps you'd be so kind as to explain what motivation the "infidel scientists" had to do so.
All science exists because of a reason, an economical reason, mostly. These #scientists" wants to earn money and to hurt Christendom. They shall not succeed!
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But evoloution is almost as close to fact as you can get. Just accept it and then wonder why we were there to evolve in the first place.
Aren't you Jewish? If so you must believe in Young Earth Creation, as thats what both your and our bible states is the way this world was created.
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