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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted November 04, 2007 12:52 AM |
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and that it was flat...
No Pope has ever made an official statement about this. There has always been a group of educated people knowing that the world was round since Ancient Greece.
you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, with this above quote from you.
Ancient Greece at the time, people did not know that the Earth wasn't flat, because they did not have the technology at one stage, they couldn't prove that it wasn't flat.
I doubt there were some people who thought it was not flat.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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ZanJerusalem
Disgraceful
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 04, 2007 12:57 AM |
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Pythagoras of Samos
Under "Other accomplishments":
"He was one of the first to think that the earth was round, that all planets have an axis, and that all the planets travel around one central point. He originally identified that point as Earth, but later renounced it for the idea that the planets revolve around a central “fire” that he never identified as the sun."
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 04, 2007 01:02 AM |
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Wikipedia? I'm surprised you use that source. I'd think you'd use something like Conservapedia.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted November 04, 2007 01:25 AM |
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And I don't care what your heathen schools tells you. Indoctrination does more bad than good. That's why Catholic schools are needed.
WOW. 10/10 for this one. I mean, I'm in shock. This is the biggest hypocritical statement
And for the record, I go to a Christian school, so you just bit yourself there.
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Of course some will survive, as some rats are stronger than others
Some rats are stronger than others due to beneficial mutation. I guess we agree. You have just admitted (possibly against your will) that evolution does occur, by agreeing with survival of the fittest. QED.
Survival of the fittest + Heredity (surely you don't doubt heredity) EQUALS Evolution.
ie. the next generation of rats will ALL be stronger (as only the "stronger" resistant ones survived to reproduce, thus the species has changed, evolved to be stronger.
Exactly the same as bacteria. There's a name for it, and it is natural selection, the process by which evolution, the product, comes about.
Let me ask you Zan: If you fell ill with staphylococcus, would you stay true to your immutable species beliefs and have yourself treated with the medicine that worked when the disease was first discovered, or the medicine designed to combat the multi-strain resistant species it has evolved into since then?
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A little question here: How is it possible for us to have a brain that could hold enough info to last over 3 millions years, when all we can live up to is 90 years?
I don't see what the point you're trying to make here is. People have lived much older than 90 for a start, and with technology people could in theory live forever, thanks to cultural evolution 
Perhaps you are saying there must be a heaven since we can know so much, in such little time on earth?
But you are forgetting that in theory, the afterlife lasts forever. What happens when 3 million years have past? Your logic is beyond flawed.
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It has never been proved. Never with watertight evidence. It's all theories made by atheists, by infidels, with the sole intention on harming Christendom.
God has never been proved. Never with watertight evidence.
And for the record there is plenty of watertight evidence for natural selection. You seriously must be closing your eyes all your waking hours.
Another example (seeing as you are ignorant about the evolution of resistance):
If you go to a population of wild animals. Doesn't matter which.
-Measure the allele frequencies in a population.
-Come back in a decade or so.
-Measure the allele frequencies again.
If they a) Have not changed, then the species is immutable or b) Have changed, then the species has changed and has thus evolved.
I guarantee you they will have changed. This experiment has been done countless times and is watertight evidence for evolution.
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John says to live above hell.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 04, 2007 03:21 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 04:36, 04 Nov 2007.
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Quoting me:
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Perhaps you'd be so kind as to explain what motivation the "infidel scientists" had to do so.
Quoting Zam:
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All science exists because of a reason, an economical reason, mostly. These #scientists" wants to earn money and to hurt Christendom. They shall not succeed!
(1) Science has existed long before there was an economical reason for it. I am a scientist and I can assure you that I don't do it for economical reasons. There are many jobs out there where I could make a lot more money than I do doing this.
(2) Actually, I couldn't give a lick about "hurting Christendom". It's not worth my time or energy.
(3) Evolution doesn't hurt Christendom. If Evolution "hurts" your beliefs (I'm not sure how that would happen), it is only because you let it happen. If you are really secure in your beliefs, the existence or nonexistence of evolution shouldn't really matter to you.
(4) Evolution doesn't really have a lot of immediately obvious commercial applications. If scientists were really only after money, there are a lot of better areas of science to be involved in for economical reasons.
(5) Assuming for a second that evolution WAS a lie concocted by scientists, then it would stand to reason that most things that scientists have invented would also be lies, no? Aside from the fact that it is clear that working technology is not based on lies, we also have the interesting fact that the computer you are using to access the internet is based upon principles discovered by the very same scientists you call infidels. And yet, you have no problem using an evil computer, do you? So either that makes you not very intelligent, or it makes you a hypocrite.
So you see, the whole "lie made up by scientists" doesn't really have much of a logical basis, does it?
Quoting William:
Quote:
you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, with this above quote from you.
Ancient Greece at the time, people did not know that the Earth wasn't flat, because they did not have the technology at one stage, they couldn't prove that it wasn't flat.
Actually the Greeks did believe the Earth was round, and they did have "technology" that provided evidence of this. Actually, you don't need technology other than your eyes. The horizon is curved, after all. It is also a misconception that the people in the middle ages thought the world was flat. In any case, I already addressed this mistconception earlier in the thread (page 51-52?). I suggest you check out the very good wiki article on the subject.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted November 04, 2007 04:13 AM |
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That was what I was saying.
I was saying that the Greeks thought it was flat....
Perhaps I said it all wrong, but my post looks fine to me.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 04, 2007 04:39 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 04:39, 04 Nov 2007.
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No, sorry, that was a clerical error on my part, which I have since fixed. In later Antiquity, most Greeks believed the Earth was round.
An excerpt from the article I mentioned:
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By classical times an alternative idea, that Earth was spherical, had appeared in Ancient Greece. Pythagoras in the 6th century BC, apparently on aesthetic grounds, held that all the celestial bodies were spherical. However, most Presocratic Pythagoreans considered the world to be flat.[6] Around 330 BC, Aristotle provided observational evidence for the spherical Earth,[7] noting that travelers going south see southern constellations rise higher above the horizon. This is only possible if their horizon is at an angle to northerners' horizon. Thus the Earth's surface cannot be flat.[8] He also noted that the border of the shadow of Earth on the Moon during the partial phase of a lunar eclipse is always circular, no matter how high the Moon is over the horizon. Only a sphere casts a circular shadow in every direction, whereas a circular disk casts an elliptical shadow in all directions apart from directly above and directly below.[9]
The Earth's circumference was first determined around 240 BC by Eratosthenes. Eratosthenes knew that in Syene, in Egypt, the Sun was directly overhead at the summer solstice, while he estimated that a shadow cast by the Sun at Alexandria was 1/50th of a circle. He estimated the distance from Syene to Alexandria as 5,000 stades, and estimated the Earth's circumference was 250,000 stades and a degree was 700 stades (implying a circumference of 252,000 stades).[10] Eratosthenes used rough estimates and round numbers, but depending on the length of the stadion, his result is within a margin of between 2% and 20% of the actual circumference, 40,008 kilometres. Note that Eratosthenes could only measure the circumference of the Earth by assuming that the distance to the Sun is so great that the rays of sunlight are essentially parallel. A similar measurement, reported in a Chinese mathematical treatise, the Zhoubi suanjing (1st c. BC), was used to measure the distance to the Sun– albeit by assuming that the Earth was flat.[11]
Sketch map from a 12th century manuscript of Macrobius's commentary on Dream of Scipio, showing the inhabited northern region separated from the antipodes by an imagined ocean spanning the equator.During this period, Earth was generally thought of as divided into zones of climate, with a frigid clime at the poles, a deadly torrid clime near the equator, and a mild and habitable temperate clime between the two. It was thought that the different temperatures of these zones were related with proximity to the sun. It was erroneously believed that no one could cross the torrid clime and reach the unknown lands on the other half of the globe. At the time, these imagined lands as well as their inhabitants were both called antipodes.[12][13]
Lucretius (1st. c. BC) opposed the concept of a spherical Earth, because he considered the idea of antipodes absurd. But by the 1st century AD, Pliny the Elder was in a position to claim that everyone agrees on the spherical shape of Earth,[14] although there continued to be disputes regarding the nature of the antipodes, and how it is possible to keep the ocean in a curved shape. Pliny also considers the possibility of an imperfect sphere, "shaped like a pinecone".[14]
In the Second century the Alexandrian astronomer Ptolemy advanced many arguments for the sphericity of the Earth. Among them was the observation that when sailing towards mountains, they seem to rise from the sea, indicating that they were hidden by the curved surface of the sea.[15] Ptolemy derived his maps from a curved globe and developed the system of latitude, longitude, and climes. His writings remained the basis of European astronomy throughout the Middle Ages, although Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages (ca. 3rd to 7th centuries) saw occasional arguments in favor of a flat Earth.
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted November 04, 2007 05:47 AM |
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But evoloution is almost as close to fact as you can get. Just accept it and then wonder why we were there to evolve in the first place.
Aren't you Jewish? If so you must believe in Young Earth Creation, as thats what both your and our bible states is the way this world was created.
I believe in the adam and eve thing. But i also believe its theoretically possible for species to evolve.
Just because they can evolve doesnt exactly mean that they have before really.
Im a bit undecided to be truthful, but i think that god put us there to evolve at the very least. And if he actually made humans(as they are today) im a bit confused at.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted November 04, 2007 07:50 AM |
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atheist attack,then i will defend it.
Oh yeah i will die to start a crusade against belivers.. lol slaying those who do have a religion it will be allmost,payback time like lol!
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types in obscure english
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted November 04, 2007 11:02 PM |
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Edited by executor at 19:58, 05 Nov 2007.
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TA:For a start before Christianity, Judaism was the only monotheistic religion dominant at the time and had no competition.
Zoroastrianism was in fact monotheistic. They believed in a dualistic god, yet worshipped only the good part, the Creator. They were more widespread than jews and dicrimined them, yes, so you can consider them firs antisemits. But they nearly died out when islamic Great Jihad invaded Persia & co. (i.e. converted to islam). Now only a few remain, so they would not be credited for 'inveniton' of antisemitism, as they did not practice it for 1350 years or so...  .
Just putting straight some things...
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted November 05, 2007 01:55 AM |
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That's why I mentioned dominant.
And isn't two gods polytheism, regardless of how many you worship?
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John says to live above hell.
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted November 05, 2007 03:26 PM |
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One 'dualistic' god, not two gods.
By your logic, christianity is a polytheistic religion, as it is the worship of the trinity.
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Yolk and God bless.
---
My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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Spectrum
Famous Hero
Plan B
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posted November 05, 2007 06:39 PM |
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Edited by Spectrum at 19:07, 05 Nov 2007.
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Look: Science has recently proven that if we were to learn something new every second, we would take well over 3 millions years to exhaust the memory capacity of our brains.
A little question here: How is it possible for us to have a brain that could hold enough info to last over 3 millions years, when all we can live up to is 90 years?
Dude, just because we have the capacity for all that info doesn't mean we use it all. It has also been scientifically proven that humans use less than 10% of their actual brainpower.
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I think that some of you Atheists are narrow-minded
You're serious? I can already see a big pikachu creeping up behind you...
No, seriously, I think you're being narrow-minded. You don't listen to obvious facts, all you do is preach your religion. I'm afraid some of the views of the catholic church are a bit out of date. Not possibly all scince is wrong and lies, right? Everything you know, everything you take for granted can be explained by science. And the bible, for another thing, should not be interpreted as literally as you catholic fanatics do it. And don't even get us started on the subjective selction of the texts in the bible...
What I'm saying is, while arguing, don't just think how to deny everything the other person says, but really think about what he/she is saying and if it might just have some truth to it, okay?
What I'm not saying is that you're a fool and you got it all wrong and God does not exist. I'm a christian too, but a protestant. Do you know how protestantism started, by the way? Martin Luther noticed that a lot of what the catholic church does and teaches is not in the bible. He made a list or over 90 things that, according to the bible (catholic bible) the catholic church was doing wrong. And now you claim you're the ones who follow the true message of the bible?
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I don't like fundamentalists. They seems to have forgot the most important message of Christ: Love.
And the fact that they are protestant fanatics. They hate us Catholics.
Protestants are not forgetting about Christ's love. It is our single most important message, Rather, catholics were forgetting about it and that's why protestantism was formed in the first place.
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I thought most Protestants where Fundamentalists...
No. That's more like you catholics. We protestants believe in science, and in evolution, and God. These two can coexist peacefully if you have an open mind and if you don't take the bible too literally. I'm not saying we don't believe in the bible. No no. Wonly take some parts as metaphors, others as something that's got exaggerated or modified by humans, since to err is human. As long as you have these two things, you can have both sicence and religion in your life.
And besides, protestants aren't even that fanatic about their religion. (Well, except for maybe KD) We live our lives just like atheists, except that we believe in God and in that if we love Jesus we will be forgiven and saved. Of course we also try to live according to the ten commandments and all these tips Jesus gave us (Love Thy Neughbour and all that). I'm not sure if this makes sense to you or if it's a complete explanation of what we believe in, but if you're confused or want more info on protestants, I'm willing to provide some.
I've got other points too but I'm too lazy to list the now. More later, k.?
EDIT: I've decided to edit as I go. I'm reading this thread backwards now and when I find argueable stuff, I'll edit my post and let you know
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Aculias is like the male nipple of HC, TNT being the other one -Baklava
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted November 05, 2007 07:57 PM |
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That's why I mentioned dominant.
And isn't two gods polytheism, regardless of how many you worship?
Excuse me if I wrote something unclearly, but I what I said was that zoroastrianism was clearly dominant over judaism ...
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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ZanJerusalem
Disgraceful
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 05, 2007 08:25 PM |
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WOW. 10/10 for this one. I mean, I'm in shock. This is the biggest hypocritical statement
How so?
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Survival of the fittest + Heredity EQUALS Evolution.
No, it does not. By your logic, we are an entirely different race than we where 1000 years ago because of physical changes.
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Let me ask you Zan: If you fell ill with staphylococcus, would you stay true to your immutable species beliefs and have yourself treated with the medicine that worked when the disease was first discovered, or the medicine designed to combat the multi-strain resistant species it has evolved into since then?
They have not evoluted. They have changed. They have not become an entirely new race; it's just that the strongest of them have survived, just as only the strongest humans survived Black Death.
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You're serious? I can already see a big pikachu creeping up behind you...
Of course I'm serious. I don't see why that deserves a pikachu award through...
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No, seriously, I think you're being narrow-minded. You don't listen to obvious facts, all you do is preach your religion.
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I'm afraid some of the views of the catholic church are a bit out of date.
This what happens when you breach of the One True Church and the infallible guidance of Christ's vicar... Without the guidance of Christ’s Vicar, "Christianity" can take any possible form. Like falling to popular trends, like some liberal protestants have did.
Fortunately there is still hope for the Eastern Christians...
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Not possibly all scince is wrong and lies, right?
Evolutionary scientists are NOT Real scientists. They are liars and bluffers. Creationist scientist tell the truth. I wish we had one here...
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And the bible, for another thing, should not be interpreted as literally as you catholic fanatics do it.
It should. It is the literal word of God. It was never meant to be anything else.
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And don't even get us started on the subjective selection of the texts in the bible...
Saint Athanasius and the Holy men in the Ecumeical Conculi at Nicaea, under Saint Emperor Constantine I was guided by the Holy Spirit when they complied God's words! You advocate adding false Gnostic scriptures in the bible?
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I'm a christian too, but a protestant. Do you know how protestantism started, by the way? Martin Luther noticed that a lot of what the catholic church does and teaches is not in the bible. He made a list or over 90 things that, according to the bible (catholic bible) the catholic church was doing wrong. And now you claim you're the ones who follow the true message of the bible?
Martin Luther, the evil heretic, was wrong. He introduced false and unbiblical teachings like Predestination and Sola Fide, salvation by faith alone. He toold his followers to destroy icons and plunder monasteries. Remember that Jesus Christ told us to judge the False Prophets on their fruits. And what was the fruit of reformations? Thirty years war, plundering of monasteries, spreading of unbiblical teachings and so on. And as the heretics lacked a central authority, and they had no Holy Inquisition, new heresies came to existence. After two hundred years, we had Calvinists, Baptists, Anabaptists, Presbyterians, Unitarians, Hussites and neo-Gnostics running all over Europe spreading their false and unbiblical teachings. Such is the fate of Protestantism, Eternal division.
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Protestants are not forgetting about Christ's love. It is our single most important message, Rather, catholics were forgetting about it and that's why Protestantism was formed in the first place.
The opposite. Luther hated Jews and wanted their synagogues burned. There is not much love in the origins of Protestantism.
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No. That's more like you catholics. We protestants believe in science, and in evolution, and God. These two can coexist peacefully if you have an open mind and if you don't take the bible too literally.
I think the American Pentecostal-Charismatic’s would have hanged you in the nearest tree for saying that, as would the Westboro Baptists and other groups who actually calls themselves fundamentalists. 47% of the American population believes in Young Earth Creation, thanks to your friends-in-heresy in America.
Those can not coexist. Big Bang and Evolution goes directly against the (holy) Genesis. I'm a friend of science, TRUE science, not liars who want to hurt Christendom with their unproven theories.
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We live our lives just like atheists, except that we believe in God and in that if we love Jesus we will be forgiven and saved. Of course we also try to live according to the ten commandments and all these tips Jesus gave us (Love Thy Neughbour and all that).
You are NOT saved only bay loving Jesus. You need Good Works and Baptism too. Look here:
Matthew 7:21-23 (New Jesusalem Version)
21 'It is not anyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven.
22 When the day comes many will say to me, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?"
23 Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, all evil doers!
and:
Matthew 16:16
16 Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
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I'm not sure if this makes sense to you or if it's a complete explanation of what we believe in, but if you're confused or want more info on protestants, I'm willing to provide some.
Yes, I would like to know what kind of Protestant you are.
I'm sure it would be wrong to judge the entire Protestantism on a few groups, but if you want to debate some idiots of your own denomination, check out the fundamentalist subforum of my favourite Christians forums. These people are CRAZY!!!
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 05, 2007 08:32 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 20:33, 05 Nov 2007.
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Quote:
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Not possibly all scince is wrong and lies, right?
Evolutionary scientists are NOT Real scientists. They are liars and bluffers.
You still haven't explained what their motivation for lying would be. It certainly isn't economical.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 05, 2007 09:17 PM |
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You do know that catholic, orthodox and protestant churces have agreed about what makes a religion a christian one, rihgt?
So does that makes the pope you so much admire a traitor or a one strayed from the right path because he accepts the protestant and orthodox faith as a right one too?
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 05, 2007 09:32 PM |
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Quote:
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No. That's more like you catholics. We protestants believe in science, and in evolution, and God. These two can coexist peacefully if you have an open mind and if you don't take the bible too literally.
I think the American Pentecostal-Charismatic’s would have hanged you in the nearest tree for saying that, as would the Westboro Baptists and other groups who actually calls themselves fundamentalists.
The Westboro Baptist Church is a joke. But there are extremists in any religion.
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Eccentric Opinion
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ZanJerusalem
Disgraceful
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 05, 2007 09:49 PM |
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You still haven't explained what their motivation for lying would be. It certainly isn't economical.
It is economical. Many would like to lay their hands on the Church's riches. Did you know that the Catholic Church is one of the richest organisations in the world? Just think of the treasures in Vatican City, in Rome!
And Capitalism would clearly benefit from the corruption or destruction of these protestant sects. Jesus told us to not serve mamon, but God.
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So does that makes the pope you so much admire a traitor or a one strayed from the right path because he accepts the protestant and orthodox faith as a right one too?
They are heretics. No one would say anything else. I trust our Pope, for he is infallible. I like the current one more than the previous too...
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The Westboro Baptist Church is a joke.
They are? They seem petty serious on their sites:
GodHatesFags.com
GodHatesAmerica.com
GodHatesSweden.com
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Spectrum
Famous Hero
Plan B
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posted November 05, 2007 10:14 PM |
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Edited by Spectrum at 18:09, 06 Nov 2007.
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Of course I'm serious. I don't see why that deserves a pikachu award through...
Nah I was just stressing that I thought that was a somewhat unthoughful thing to say. Never mind.
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This what happens when you breach of the One True Church and the infallible guidance of Christ's vicar... Without the guidance of Christ’s Vicar, "Christianity" can take any possible form. Like falling to popular trends, like some liberal protestants have did.
Fortunately there is still hope for the Eastern Christians...
Just where in the bible was there ever a word about a pope who is God's substitute on earth? I might be wrong but I never got this, so do explain please.
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Evolutionary scientists are NOT Real scientists. They are liars and bluffers.
This has been asked before and you've neglected to answer: Why would they do that?
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It should. It is the literal word of God. It was never meant to be anything else.
Sigh... Many are the ways of God, mate. Maybe he's pulling all our legs and laughing right now. Still, don't you think God could have given us texts that are basically right but are more symbolic than literal?
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Saint Athanasius and the Holy men in the Ecumeical Conculi at Nicaea, under Saint Emperor Constantine I was guided by the Holy Spirit when they complied God's words! You advocate adding false Gnostic scriptures in the bible?
But couldn't they have, in theory, chosen scripts that are for their own benefit and for the benefit of the church's position as the rulers? Andd then just said: "Oh but we were guided by the spirit"? In theory, right?
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Martin Luther, the evil heretic, was wrong. He introduced false and unbiblical teachings like Predestination and Sola Fide, salvation by faith alone
He was following the bible as accurarely as he could, that was his goal.
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The opposite. Luther hated Jews and wanted their synagogues burned. There is not much love in the origins of Protestantism.
Where'd you get this from?
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Those can not coexist. Big Bang and Evolution goes directly against the (holy) Genesis. I'm a friend of science, TRUE science, not liars who want to hurt Christendom with their unproven theories.
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16 Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Baptism is a part of protestantism as well. I've been baptised.
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Yes, I would like to know what kind of Protestant you are.
Finland's Evangelist-Lutheran Church, or whatever it's called in english.
And about the Big Bang... I believe in that. But how did that happen? What caused it? Science is not sure. I believe God caused it, gave the universe a little nudge and then went trigger happy with the big red button.
This thread is getting confusing, you know, hard to follow.. I'd suggest a kind of colour code, type in the same coulour all the answers to the same area, something like this:
Religion and Science(Evolution?).
Catholisism vs. Protestantism.
Heaven and Hell?.
Bible, pope and all that.
Just an idea.
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Aculias is like the male nipple of HC, TNT being the other one -Baklava
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This Popular Thread is pages long: 
