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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 17, 2006 08:19 PM |
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According to the wonderful Wikipedia Hobgoblin comes from a particular name, but has since become a general term for a `different species`. Since we can't have this story yours is good, although something a little more original could be better (not that there are many options I guess). For that matter do we need to have an explanation? I know it's nice to have detailed stories bu H3 seemed to cope without a reason for why the name changed. 
Anyway, a great start for the descriptions, I'm looking forward to more.  I may even try to write some myself. 
Edit: Behemoths having riders seems a little strange, I'm quite happy having them on their own (after all unicorns and hydras don't seem to find it too difficult).
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 17, 2006 08:48 PM |
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i dont think its necessary to put a rider on the behemoth. if the dragons could serve the dark elves, the behemoths should do the same with the orcs unmounted
I have to disagree with you here. Dragons are ancient beings, direct descendants of the (Dragon)Gods and are far more intelligent then any of the mortal races. For whatever reason the Dragons ally themselves with the (Dark)Elves, they are capable of handeling themselves because they are concious, wise and calculative beings. Dragons have a mind of their own and can be held responsible for their actions (if someone would dare do so). I can agree that Wyverns would be able to handle themselves because they are a bastardized breed of the Dragons and therefor should posses some form of intelligence.
Behemoths are a different matter. They have no or shown no sign of any intelligence other then beastly instinct. Behemoth are simple beasts, enormous raging powerhouses but still beasts. Having beasts like such on a battlefield without any guidance would be very dangerous for any side. It would be like having a dragonsized, carnivorous, war elephant(To make use of an example of a warbeast), if they were without a rider or other kinds of guidance, they are easily paniced if they are wounded, thus causing a paniced rampage which would be equaliy harmfull to both sides or at least the side which is in the direction it has chosen to flee (which in my opinion would be to great a risk for any armyleader to employ). Also if they would not have a rider, they would see no use in risking itself in a battle and therefor not take part in a battle. This would make a unguided Behemoth range from psychological, but otherwise useless weapon to being a more serious danger for you own troops then the enemy.
This is the reason why I will keep insisting that Behemoths have riders, from a practical point of view: beasts like a Behemoth would be either useless or dangerous without a rider, while with a rider they can be steered in battle making them powerfull and feared force in any army.
I have to disagree with you on this matter. Behemoth should be a savage beast with very little intellegen, but enought to know whos the ally and whos the enemy (or food) with out the need of an additonal rider. Also as with other kind of beast in other army (Hydra, Unicorn, Griffin, etc) they don't need riders. Also you forget, that there is a commander to your beast, and that is your Hero. (who would be doing a similar job as a rider, just at far off distance)
I won't mind seeing rider on other beast, but for Behemoth, a lv 7 creature, it really put down their "Brute Power" image having a small and weak goblin on top of them.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 17, 2006 08:57 PM |
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Quote:
Edit: Behemoths having riders seems a little strange, I'm quite happy having them on their own (after all unicorns and hydras don't seem to find it too difficult).
If you read the description of the Unicorns thoroughly, you'll see that the Unicorns are spirits of nature and as such are considered sacred by the Elves. This would mean that the Unicorns are either a creation, or some far off offspring of Sylanna. As such they are alsmost directly linked to the Dragongods, which would make it very logical for them to be intelligent beings.
Also the Hydras are stated to have very limited intelligence and are also (probably) Dragon offspring. They are also an enslaved race, this would suggest that the Hydras areat least to some point aware of their fate. If I had to grade the Hydras intelligence, I would putt them only just below Trolls, if only because Trolls are, up to some point, capable of speach. (Unicorns would be probably some point above several Demons and maybe even Goblins) Besides they have multiple heads, whatever intelligence they have is multiplied by their number of heads. (I agree that the last agrument is debateble, if only because if every head would have a mind of its own, what would keep them from fighting with eachother)
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I have to disagree with you on this matter. Behemoth should be a savage beast with very little intellegen, but enought to know whos the ally and whos the enemy (or food) with out the need of an additonal rider. Also as with other kind of beast in other army (Hydra, Unicorn, Griffin, etc) they don't need riders. Also you forget, that there is a commander to your beast, and that is your Hero. (who would be doing a similar job as a rider, just at far off distance)
I won't mind seeing rider on other beast, but for Behemoth, a lv 7 creature, it really put down their "Brute Power" image having a small and weak goblin on top of them.
While I agree that Behemoths would be able to make out the difference between food, allie and enemies, the real problem is that they probably will not be able to do so when they are hurt. You wouldn't send an elephant into battle without a rider, so doig that with an even less inteligent, far more powerfull and quick to anger Behemoth would seem kind of stupid (it would seem something that would be done if Trolls would be in charge). As far as your Hero commanding you're Behemoths that could work, as long as there are no more then 4 Behemoths, even a particularly Tough and Severe Hero would be in over his head when it would be an entire pack of Behemoths.
As far as Griffins go, I recon that Griffins are more intelligent then Trolls. If Griffins can be trained to act as hunting Hounds, Homing Birds and be able to be petts to royalty, they can be able to be effective in battle with a few commands. While I still say that Griffins also need guidance in battle, they are intelligent enough to not need a rider for every Griffin. Although that would be very cool in my opinion.
Thirdly, who ever said we were going to let a Goblin ride the Behemoths. Heck, we don't even let them ride the Wolves. As a rider I had something else in mind. Picture the largest, most cruel, most scarred Orc bodybuilder(One who you would seem capable of wrestling Hydras, barehanded) with torn leather pants and spike tipped boots, put him behind the head of the Behemoth and have it made very visible they he has to put in all his effort to keep the Behemoth in check. That is not something would putt down the "Brute Strength" image of a Behemoth.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted July 17, 2006 10:13 PM |
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Behemoths were a creation of the designers of HOMM3. They took the idea from the bible perhaps. What's clear though is that there's no mythology surrounding the Behemoth the same way that there is surrounding dragons, goblins, etc... So we don't really know how smart they are supposed to be.
If the Behemoth is intelligent enough to be able to form alliances with the strongholders then they surely don't need riders. If they are mere dumb brutes though it would be foolish to send them into battle without some type of control. In that case I can totally see a bulked up Orc rider trying to control a behemoth in the fury of the battle.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 17, 2006 10:52 PM |
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I will now try to make a decent description for the Berserker and Berserker Veteran
Berserker
Orcs are a race of Warriors and the Warriorcaste is the largest in Orcsociety. Berserkers make up the bulk of any orc army. Armed with the Orcish hooked swords(Orc Sabres) they are a force to be reckoned with. Because most Orcs prefer the moveablty of leather armour above being slowed down by heavy metal armor, they are much faster over much other infantry. Other then popular belief Berserkers don't enter battle in a frenzied state, it is in the vecinity of the enemy that the Orcs loose themselves in rage and attack with their trademark ferocity.
Berserker Veteran
Berserker Veterans are seasoned warriors, having seen many fights and fought many wars and live to tell the tales. After those years of combatpractice, the Veterans have mastered the use of two weapons. Next to their swords they wield razor sharp axes. This makes them the more feared foe, as it is nearly imposible to dodge both weapons. The Veterans have also experienced their Bloodlust many times and are able to pull themselves out of their blind rage more quickly. The better to use on a new adversary.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted July 17, 2006 11:12 PM |
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Since this is a democracy we shall vote the following:
1. Behemoth: Rider or riderless?
2. Wyvern: Greater Wyvern as an upgrade or something else.
Either way, i vote for riderless behemoths and greater wyvern and war-overlord votes rider and some other name.
Spiked armor plating for behemoths...me like that idea. sort of like the now defunct vital aura for the green dragons with the large shield ability added to it. impressive and really fitting for the dire behemoths.
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Klaital
Known Hero
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posted July 18, 2006 12:53 AM |
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Cyclopses in homm were originally melee attackers (in heroes 2) they just for some reason changed them to ranged in heroes 3. I would personally like a distribution for an orc town of something like this...
tier 1: goblin/goblin javeliner. Weak creatures with large numbers. The unupgraded one wouldn't need any specials, the upgraded one would be shooter.
tier 2: orc grunt/orc veteran. rather slow melee walker with good hp and good damage (armed with a big axe), enraged to both versions and also double strike to the upgraded one.
tier 3: Wolf rider/wolf marauder. orcs mounted on big wolves. this should be fast in both speed and initiative with high damage, but low defense and hp, along with double strike (both the rider and the wolf attack) upgraded version could have no retaliation also.
tier 4: Shaman/elder shaman. shooter and caster, spells available should include stuff like righteous might, divine strength, stone spikes, and haste. (stone spikes maybe with only the upgraded one) high damage and low hp probably.
tier 5: Roc or wyvern with whatever upgrade. anyway medium speed flier with high hp and high damage
tier 6: Ogre/ogre berserker. Rather slow (the upgrade much faster) melee walker with lots of hp and high damage, enraged and the upgrade having unlimited retaliations.
tier 7: Cyclops/cyclops king Returning back to their roots from heroes 2, a melee cyclops, using some huge weapon, either sword, axe, or hammer, good speed, medium initiative, medium hp, high damage, casting vulnerability at advanced level on the target with each attack, the upgraded version having also two square attack (similar acid/fire breath) due to its huge weapon.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 18, 2006 11:05 PM |
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Third creature description. Here it goes.
Wolf Marauder
Orcs have their own kind of cavalry, instead of horses Orc ride wolves. Vicious, black, tusked, horse-sized wolves. The Orcs are slightly armoured with leather clothes shinplates, gauntles and helmets, though this is considered quite heavily by the Orcs. The Orcs are armed with Orcsabres, while the wolves make due with their sharp teeth The wolves have to be trained from a pup to accept their riders, a training that forms a exceptional bond between mount and rider. Both take over the characteristics of the other. The most notable of which is the pack mentality, every regiment of Marauders behaves and is strenghthend like a pack of wild wolves.
Wolf Ravagers
Ravagers are the elite cavalry of the Orcs, making them often the decisive factor in battles. Only the most tireless and honorable Orcs are allowed in the Ravager ranks. Ravagers wear the same outfits as Marauder, save the numerous spikes on their armour and are armed with massive warblades. Using their almost unnatural stamina, the Ravagers will keep on fighting, turning their part of a battle into a massacre. However the most striking of the Ravagers is their unique warcry. They are able to attract the attention of the foe in even the most heated battle, drawing them away from their allies.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted July 19, 2006 12:36 AM |
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War-Overlord, I gotta solution to your hobgoblin name quandry... Hobgoblins are half goblin, half orc... bigger and nastier than goblins yet not quite orc... maybe big enough to ride the wolves without looking foolish or meek.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 19, 2006 10:38 PM |
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Quote:
War-Overlord, I gotta solution to your hobgoblin name quandry... Hobgoblins are half goblin, half orc... bigger and nastier than goblins yet not quite orc... maybe big enough to ride the wolves without looking foolish or meek.
I thought we already agreed, when Baklava was still at home, that the Wolfriders would be Orcs and not Goblins.
Your suggestion gave me an idea though, go check out my description of the Hobgoblins in a few mins from now, tell me what you think.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted July 19, 2006 11:00 PM |
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Drinking orcblood? So if a human drinks orc blood does he become a hobhuman? Personally, Im not a big fan of that idea. I rather go for simplicity and the fact is that they are of orc and goblin blood. But thats just me cuz I like to keep thinks simple.
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted July 19, 2006 11:01 PM |
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Quote:
6) Question: Orcs appear In history of the Academy town. Whether there will be orcs simply "neutral" units or they will receive the town in one of the expansions?
Answer: Orcs will not be in Heroes of Might and Magic V at all.
This news has been out for a while. Stop wasting your time. The stronghold was alwasy the lamest town (in my opinion anyway).
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted July 20, 2006 03:42 AM |
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Isnt "this post has been out for some time" outdated?
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Miru
Supreme Hero
A leaf in the river of time
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posted July 20, 2006 11:36 PM |
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No, he said it won't be in expansions, and didn't even say, 'so far we don't plan to'.
No goblins.
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I wish I were employed by a stupendous paragraph, with capitalized English words and expressions.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted July 26, 2006 02:51 AM |
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What happened to all the ideas? Where is everyone?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 26, 2006 01:35 PM |
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I'm still watching, just don't have much time this week. The Creatures will come in the weekend.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted July 27, 2006 06:59 PM |
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OK, I'm BAAACK, as the Governator would put it.
However I have some problems with my modem so I will read this more rarely. 
Anyway, I really like our progress. There's some things I'd like to say, though.
WarOverlord, your creature descriptions should be shorter, if those are the ones that ought to be used in the game.
I would do the town history (people also said I'm good at that during ICTC) but since I can't access the internet from my own computer anymore, you've got my blessing to do it. But watch out for the typing and grammar mistakes. Also, please, put a lot of effort in that. I believe in you, man. Don't dissapoint me.
Quote:
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What's clear though is that there's no mythology surrounding the Behemoth the same way that there is surrounding dragons, goblins, etc... So we don't really know how smart they are supposed to be.
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Why does everyone insult the Behemoths' intelligence? Behemoth was a demon in Indian mythology. Henceforth, I believe it is supposed to be smart enough.
I also never heard of a mounted demon before. Drop the idea of the green version of Sylvester Stalone riding the Behemoths. Please.
Wyverns - Ancient Wyverns
Behemoths - Dire Behemoths
I think that would be the best combination.
By the way, in Indian mythology Behemoth was a fat rampaging guy who most oftenly took the shape of an elephant (!). Praise 3DO for making them look different. I really like their looks form Heroes 3 and 4.
Miru, man, I'm sorry if I'm the first one that has to enlighten you with this, but we DO NOT, I repeat, DO NOT give a f*ck about some prehistoric news. According to them, Spectral Dragons were supposed to be incorporeal. And Stronghold was simply far from the lamest town. It rocked. Even if Nival doesn't want to put it in, never mind. We're having fun making this. If you don't like orcs, that doesn't mean they suck. Sheesh, I have a feeling you're one of those who don't like Ozzy Osbourne.
OK, keep up the good work, people. I see no one wants to do the stats, but never mind, we can do that later.
I don't know when I'll be able to read this post again.
Crappy modems... 
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Gnoll_Mage
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted July 28, 2006 05:22 PM |
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I'm currently in the process of some 'stat analysis' of the original Heroes creatures (the H3 version of which led to a rather controversial order of town powers) so that I can see how my faction ideas (Saurian and Stronghold from ICTC plus an Orc town that I haven't properly finished) balance with the other 6 factions. On the offchance that I do finish it I can always try to make some statistics up for this idea too and see how they pan out.
Edit: that would require someone giving me an updated list of the creatures, at least a rough sketch - I'm finding it hard to work it out looking through the thread after not following it for a while.
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SBlister
Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
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posted July 28, 2006 11:53 PM |
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First off, Baklava... Welcome back, man. Second yeah we are still going to make Stronghold a kickass town despite the views of anti-green skin people. Lets finally lay to rest the fact that behemoths will not be mounted. I dont think behemoths are from the indian culture. rakshasas, nagas and garudas. thats about it if u dont count the devas and asuras (angels and demons). rampaging fat guy was an asura that took the shape of an elephant. trust me on that. im indian, i would know. behemoths according to the bible look like hippos.
the wyvern name problem... i still would go with greater wyvern. or ...scale wyvern. something like that.
I have a few names for the dwellings:
1. Goblin Trenches - Goblins
Hobgoblin Warrens - Hobgoblins
2. Mess Hall - Berserker
Great Hall - Veteran Berserker
3. Nesting Grounds - Wyvern
Roosting Grounds - Greater Wyvern
4. Tribal Totem - Shaman
Sacred Totem - Shaman Elder
5. Troll Cave - Troll
Fortified Cave - Battle Troll
Thats bout it.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted July 29, 2006 04:43 PM |
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I don't know about Wyvren, it should stay in the Fortress/Swamp town if there is one. Perhaps there are two kinds of Wyvrens, Pekois and Swamp Dragons, one for the plains, one for the swamps.
Also, I put in a vote for behemouth!
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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