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| Thread: Are Necromancers Evil? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · NEXT» |
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Andmcmuffin2
Hired Hero
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posted June 30, 2006 06:12 PM |
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Poll Question:
Are Necromancers Evil?
This seemingly random question just occured to me- they have been portrayed as neutral to evil. I don't want what the game says, I want what you think.
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The wraith is reserved?!?! NOOOO I'M NOT GOING TO BE PINK AND UNDEAD!
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ZeroXcuses
Known Hero
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posted June 30, 2006 06:55 PM |
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Using D&D terminology...
In H2, Necros were "Chaotic Evil," and the same is true for H3. In Enroth and Erathia, their purpose was to corrupt all the land, converting everyone into the undead. Shadows of Death really illustrates Sandro's quest for power.
In H4, we get our first glimpse of a "True Neutral" Necro, especailly because the hero in the campaign is more of a hero than an anti-hero, even though he is alligned with death. Check out on of the campaign desccriptions:
Gauldoth is forced to betray his beloved master, Kalibarr, when he learns that the lich actually serves a malicious god of death determined to destroy every living being on this new world. In three months time, the Stars will be in alignment and Kalibarr will be able to forge the Unholy Breath, an artifact with the power to destroy all living flesh. For the sake of the entire world, and for his own survival, Gauldoth must stop him.
He even says that one must "play the middle in order to survive" or something to that effect, solidifying Death as neutral as Nature, although any alignment, even neutrals can leak over into others. (except for Lawful Good)
An example of this is H5 Necros, which I believe are Neutral Evil, because though they worship the Primordial Dragon of Order (Asha), their beliefs are twisted into the "spider god," worshiping only Asha's powers over death and not life.
The Wizards of the Silver Cities turn into Necros in their thirst for knowledge, wisdom, and magic, turning their studies towards what is seen as corrupt. They are then annihilated to the brink of extinction. I have no inhabitions when Markal seeks revenge. I think it's justified. The Necro sects were not a threat to anyone. However, when Markal goes beyond revenge, he crosses into evil.
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SuperDave9x19
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 30, 2006 07:03 PM |
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Three heroes walk into a bar, a Necromancer, a Ranger and a Knight. Which orders a shots of Grain Alcohol? and why?
All three.
The Necromancer wants to get dead drunk.
The Ranger wants something pure and natural.
The Knight wants to bang his horse later.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 30, 2006 07:25 PM |
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oh, no, they are purely good, converting dead into rotten half-living meat is perfectly ok 
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silentbobus
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 30, 2006 09:24 PM |
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Death is always associated with Evil. All of the creatures you can recruit for them are evil, and most of their Hero's are evil. Thus, as a whole, they are evil....
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Vicheron
Known Hero
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posted June 30, 2006 10:12 PM |
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The Necros are evil in Heroes 2 and 3.
In Might and Magic 7 under Archibald's rule, they're more neutral.
They're kind of neutral in Might and Magic 8.
In Heroes 4, they're neutral.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 30, 2006 11:39 PM |
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It seems to me that they started off as neutral just discovering their craft and observing the powers of death.Nothing for which I'd really blame them but I certainly wouldn't trust them since association with the forces of death can be soul-corrupting and anyway playing with corpses(animated or not) is kinda sick AND disrespectful of the people's corpses' memory.Even one who would experiment on a corpse found in a battlefield wouldn't possibly stop there out of thirst for knowledge.And learning how to inflict pain,curses or death on another one can even find it pretty natural in time,thinking nothing of it.The wizards were both fearing the loss of political power and the possibility that they were allowing a cancer to grow in their cities,something that could turn harmful and hostile.So they didn't allow necromancers to reveal their true intentions.Instead they turned them to a path of persecution,exile and hatred strengthening their ties to evil.Maybe they weren't truly evil but were most certainly forced to this path.However note that a good or neutral character is not necessarily keen on taking revenge especially going to the lengths Markal did.Ubi did a good job blurring the line between neutrality and evil for necropolis.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Andmcmuffin2
Hired Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 12:40 AM |
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I shall quate from Warhammer: The EmpireQuote:
Wizards of the lore of Death (or Amethyst)are shunned by the folk of Altdorf and there is reason to see why. Yet even so there are manywho secretly crave contact with the spirit world, with departed loved ones, and with those dead whose secrets they wish to learn...
Therefore they could just want to talk with a dead loved one- does the power corrupt them, or do they still have will?
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The wraith is reserved?!?! NOOOO I'M NOT GOING TO BE PINK AND UNDEAD!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 01, 2006 12:54 AM |
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Will?A strange concept for this situation.All necromancers I've seen are motivated by something and none have been soulless puppets unable to turn from their path.More likely that they enjoy what they do and act having full conscience of their actions.IMO necromancy just makes it easier for some negative aspects of one's character as the loss of consciense,ease of taking a life etc to surface.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Andmcmuffin2
Hired Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 12:55 AM |
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Good point.
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The wraith is reserved?!?! NOOOO I'M NOT GOING TO BE PINK AND UNDEAD!
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 05:49 AM |
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Edited by Fuzzier at 05:56, 01 Jul 2006.
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Never imagined someone would say necromancers're neutral?!:sick:
Demons torture bodis & souls, while necromancers manipulate bodis & imprison souls. There're not much differences here.
I don't know why some ppl would be so confused on righteousness & evil!? Maybe you have watched too many Hollywood movies and your judgement has been degraded/corrupted.
Necromancers are pure evil! Their minds are twisted, there're motived by possession and power, they're self-claimed tyrannies, who make themselves Kings/Queues with absolute power to control over others and remain eternal as immortals. They sacrifice, raise, manipulate as if they were Gods...
Can you imagine a necromancer in our modern world who's raising your grandma/pa to form an undead legion while someone claim that they're just neutral and let she/he/it be?!:sick:
My recommendation is DO NOT make a necromancer your leader, because when you do that, you've most likely already been a mindless undead!
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Vicheron
Known Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 06:05 AM |
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Have you played Heroes 4?
As for “righteousness” and “evil”, those who proclaim to know what is righteous are often far less moral than they think.
A lot of Necromancers don't even raise others. They just become undead so they can pursuit their studies past their death.
A lot of Necromancers only raise those who want to become undead.
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 06:35 AM |
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Edited by Fuzzier at 06:52, 01 Jul 2006.
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Quote:
A lot of Necromancers only raise those who want to become undead.
Whoa, "only raise those who want to become undead..."
How dare you speak that?!
Then nullify Necromancy skill, banish Shrine of the Netherworld.
Why not ask your enemies' bodies whether they want to become an undead or not? Or maybe you should goto heaven to find their souls and ask them then?
Markal raised Nicolai because Nicolai wanted him to? What a joke!
There is no absolute righteousness, but we are humans, we do have emotions and feelings and our own set of rules to live together. There're some lines too dangerous to cross (for example, nuclear weapons in real world).
As for necromancers, they're twisted minds who seek immortality and absolute power. They not only endanger the living, but also disturb the death. That's why in many D&D games, both the God of life and the God of death are opponents to the God of undead.
Pursuit their studies? What's their purpose of study? Let me tell you: they want to become Gods by remaining eternal, and manipulating life and death (a twisted version of creation). By sarcrificing their humanity, I, as a human, fail to see how neutral they are!
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Vicheron
Known Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 07:12 AM |
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Edited by Vicheron at 07:19, 01 Jul 2006.
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I never said that all Necromancers only raised people who wanted to be raised. I never said that all Necromancers become undead to pursuit their studies.
You're just generalizing them and you're making up stuff. You're just saying that they're all bat **** crazy and want to become gods. Do you know anything about the values they have in Might and Magic? It’s a medieval setting. You can burn people for worshipping the wrong god and still be hailed as a hero and considered a paragon of virtue and good.
How do you even know that there is a heaven in the Might and Magic? How do you know what "souls" in Might and Magic are like? In Might and Magic 7, Might and Magic 8, and Heroes of Might and Magic 4 we see that the undead retain much of their personality from when they were alive, they're not tormented, and they don't have a problem with being undead. It's only in Heroes 5 where the undead are tortured.
As for the Necromancer's manipulation of life and death, we do that all the time. Hospitals literally bring back the dead every day. We artificially extend our own lives and we preserve lives that would be lost in the natural world. If we didn't manipulate life and death, infant mortality rate would go through the roof and the average life span would be less than 45 years. There's nothing wrong with the pursuit of knowledge and the Necromancers are making due with the best methods they have. You can’t blame a doctor in the 1800’s for amputating limbs that have the potential for infections, it may be barbaric by today’s standards but they had different values and they didn’t have penicillin back then. Necromancers don't have microscopes or computers, they're just using the best methods they have available to acquire knowledge. Being ignorant of the world is far worse than what some Necromancers are doing.
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B0rsuk
Promising
Famous Hero
DooM prophet
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posted July 01, 2006 08:00 AM |
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Edited by B0rsuk at 08:05, 01 Jul 2006.
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 10:30 AM |
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Edited by Fuzzier at 11:46, 01 Jul 2006.
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Quote:
It's only in Heroes 5 where the undead are tortured.
I take that you've never played H3.
Quote:
As for the Necromancer's manipulation of life and death, we do that all the time.
Other 'good'/neutral nations may do bad things for their own benefits, but them also do good things to benefit mankind.
But can you recall when, where & which necromancer who did anything that benefits mankind? The answer is obvious.
Doctors/Priests do manipulate life and death, and the sacret job for all doctors/priests is to help the wounded. What they do benefit mankind. But how about necromancers? Unfortunatedly, they only benefit themselves. What's why we, as humans, respect doctors/priests, but spit and crusade necromancers.
Quote:
Necromancers don't have microscopes or computers, they're just using the best methods they have available to acquire knowledge. Being ignorant of the world is far worse than what some Necromancers are doing.
Priest don't have microscopes or computers either, but what's the difference between a priest and a necromancer when we talking about manipulating life and death? You've got the answer already.
Necromancers are pure evil.
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Roellut
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 01, 2006 10:59 AM |
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It's in the nature of people to want to be important. Everybody has their own ways to reach that: priests by blessing and healing and necromancers by raising the dead. In the end, people allways act for their own benefits.
I think our backgroud is fundamental for our opinion about necromancy. I'm an atheist so I think corpses are just dead people no soul nor feeling or something. Knowing that, what's wrong with raising them for your own purposes?
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 11:13 AM |
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Quote:
Can you define 'evil' ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy
Does the necromancy you mentioned has anything to do with the game?
And do that web site acknowledges that there are other kinds of necromancy that do things far beyond summoning spirits to gain knowledge of future events? There're plenty rumors about curses and zombies, and all of them is evil.
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 11:42 AM |
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Quote:
In the end, people allways act for their own benefits.
You are absolutely wrong!
People do have the instinct to sacrifice their own profit to benefit others, sometimes even their own lives --- countless examples in human history, a recent example is 911.
Quote:
I'm an atheist so I think corpses are just dead people no soul nor feeling or something. Knowing that, what's wrong with raising them for your own purposes?
Because no matter someone is dead or not, someone else care about them.
We give respect to the dead, to our ancestors. They enter the great cycle of nature, and join other forms of life. To raise them, is to break the harmony of nature.
If you're an atheist, do you believe there is anything called Necromancy? Do you believe that somebody can summon spirits, make curses, raise skeletons, bite necks? Necromancy is super-natural, and I don't even believe that you believe Nacromancer even exists.
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Roellut
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 01, 2006 12:00 PM |
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Haha, ofcourse not
But we're now entering the realm of ethics instead of doing some nice chit-chat about the game. We'll probaly never agree on this ;-)
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