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| Thread: Are Necromancers Evil? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Vicheron
Known Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 12:17 PM |
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It's only in Heroes 5 where the undead are tortured.
I take that you've never played H3.
Which undead character in Heroes 3 is tortured? We see in Shadow of Death, Heroes 4, Might and Magic 7 and 8 that the average undead is just like a normal person.
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As for the Necromancer's manipulation of life and death, we do that all the time.
Other 'good'/neutral nations may do bad things for their own benefacts, but them also do good things to benefact mankind.
But can you recall when, where & which necromancer who did anything that benefacts mankind? The answer is obvious.
Doctors/Priests do manipulate life and death, and the sacret job for all doctors/priests is to help the wounded. What they do benefacts mankind. But how about necromancers? Unfortunatedly, they only benefact themselves. What's why we, as humans, respect doctors/priests, but spit and crusade necromancers.
If people would just put aside their prejudices for one second they would see that bringing people back from the dead is a contribution. You can complain all you want about how necromancers bring people back against their will but how many of those people died willingly? Like I have said previously, it is shown in Shadow of Death, Heroes 4, Might and Magic 7 and 8 that the undead are like normal people. Necromancy is used to preserve the knowledge and experiences of past generations but people freak out when they see an undead person and automatically assume that they’re evil without any evidence.
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Necromancers don't have microscopes or computers, they're just using the best methods they have available to acquire knowledge. Being ignorant of the world is far worse than what some Necromancers are doing.
Priest don't have microscopes or computers either, but what's the difference between a priest and a necromancer when we talking about manipulating life and death? You've got the answer already.
Necromancers are pure evil.
Priests don’t acquire knowledge. They use their archaic superstitions and rituals to repress the people and keep themselves in power. They resist change and suppress new ideas. They label anyone who resists them as heretics and burn them at the stake. Priests are exalted because they tell people they should be exalted. They call themselves holy men not because it’s a label given to them by the people, it’s a label they gave themselves. Necromancers break the taboo based some superstitious belief in fate. Not only are necromancers able to go a step beyond priests, the power they wield can be acquired by anyone. Priests label all undead as evil even though most undead just want to live as they did when they were alive.
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RaZmuShaDoW
Known Hero
The Sync Bug Hunter
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posted July 01, 2006 01:47 PM |
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I like HOMM5 because the pairs (of evil vs good) are very clear.
Evil vs Good
Humans (christians) vs Inferno (satanists)
Dungeon (dark elves) vs Silvian (good elves - "flower people")
Necro (scientists of evil) vs Academy (scientiscts of good)
At least I think so 
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What’s the point of being a renegade if you still have to pay taxes?
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Lich_King
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 01:57 PM |
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I do not think that pairing towns which is of what opposite is possible, since for example Necropolis stands for death. Death is opposed to Life, thus Light alignment such as Haven and Nature alignment, such as Sylvan will be against it too.
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law558
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 02:29 PM |
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I don't think you can class necromancer's as good or evil. As with most cases, it comes down to the person.
e.g taking a noble knight, a paragon of good. He could make life in his kingdom great for all, or on the other hand, he could explote his power, overtax the serfs and make life a misery for everyone.
It's the same with necromaner's. They could use their power's to bring comfort to widows, or raise spirits to discover lost knowlegde of the past.
Or they could curse, poison and kill millions, just to raise an army, they swept across the world, bringing pain and misery whereever they go.
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 01, 2006 03:19 PM |
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We'll probaly never agree on this ;-)
You are right!
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Gulshog
Tavern Dweller
Storyteller
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posted July 01, 2006 06:51 PM |
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It's funny that this question should come up, because the story that I am writing for my campaign for HOMM5 will center around a Necromancer. I enjoy the Necromancer in the game, and it does bring up all kinds of questions of good and evil, shades of grey.
I'd have to say, though, that most necromancers have a tinge of darkness to them. I mean, to be able to command dead, rotting corpses takes a different mindset.
But, I can see how some would do what they do, at least intitially, just for simple arcane research. Or, as others stated, to contact dead relatives, or the relatives of others.
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The Mordigoer Tablets: A new campaign for HOMM5(Needed: Map Editor and Campaign Editor)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 01, 2006 09:55 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 21:58, 01 Jul 2006.
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So Fuzzier,are you a fanatic or something?Did undead raise someone you love as a corpse?Do you have more problems apart fron necros are neutral?More mysteries yet to be unfolded! But seriously,why don't you try to see things as H5 shows?There is always the benefit of doubt.Nobody said they are kindred souls and of course anyone who raises zombies can't be too good but still a character may go to such lengths without being motivated by evil intent.Maybe you care about the dead but they don't.So what?You have different moral values as you might have with any other person.Suppose I despise cloning,does that make it evil?Just because I say so?
A neutral character doesn't have to benefit mankind,he is not bound to it by any force.They are dark and thus selfish even if that is not always the case.Gauldoth could cause destruction,yet allowed the living to be,treated them with respect(except those who had wronged him) and protected them.He could conquer Emilia's kingdom easily yet all he wanted was to survive and let live.Markal is evil but you can't base your opinions on him or Sandro,they are but two in who knows many others.A death knight in SoD(Mot?Not sure) didn't care to participate in a campaign against the living .So they seek immortality and extended studies.Their own choice really,as all have rights so long as they mean no harm.And not all do.
And something else.Citing someone is pure evil on belief that you know all his motives and way of thought and because you dislike his philosophy is insufficient as an argument.As is assuming that [Maybe some people have watched too many Hollywood movies and their judgement has been degraded/corrupted].Try to think from another's perspective before you dismiss his thoughts as sick or whatever.
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 02, 2006 04:46 AM |
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So Fuzzier,are you a fanatic or something?Did undead raise someone you love as a corpse?Do you have more problems apart fron necros are neutral?...
We're talking about the game, aren't we?
Well, you guys intend to ingore the evil part of necromancers. You say some necromancers are neutral, while you ingore a whole lot evil ones.
We're talking about H5, but you utilize a real-world standard far from the game to judge good and evil, while telling me to see things as H5 shows. My love's corpse? Funny. So when a necromancer raises someone's daughter's corpse for its own purpose, that someone could just say "Oh, it's netural, welcome to use my daughter's corpse!". And I can tell you that in many nations, disturbing the dead is severe insultant.
"Their own choice really, as all have rights so long as they mean no harm" --- it's only your kind imaginations. As if they could experiment necromancy without manipulating any body or any soul. When they run out of supply, will they just sit there wait for another prey? They're too ambitious to remain immortal, too thirty for Necromancy. It's unnatural, and they're twisted. They have no respect for life or death, they twist them under their control. They harm the balance of natural, and how can they be neutral?
And how can you tell that during their processes to become a lich or deathknight, they didn't do any harm? What we all know is necromancers don't do good things, only evil things.
So in one word, We'll probaly never agree on this ;-)
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Vicheron
Known Hero
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posted July 02, 2006 05:51 AM |
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No one is ignoring the evil Necromancers. No one is saying that all Necromancers are neutral just that some are.
Why do you keep bringing up this "lack of respect for life and death" and unnatural thing? Our medical technology is unnatural. Like I said before, infant mortality rate in industrialized countries are unnaturally low and life expectancy is unnaturally high. Just because something is unnatural doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Computers are unnatural, newspapers are unnatural, the cities we live in are completely unnatural. There was a time when people feared and shunned many of the medical technologies we use today, citing them as bad because they're unnatural. Just because a tool is used to cause harm does not make that tool inherently evil. For example, dynamite has helped humanity as much as it has hurt us. Just because evil necromancers use necromancy to conquer does not mean that necromancy is inherently evil. If used properly by neutral necromancers, necromancy can be used to help society. It could bring back the greatest minds of the era. It could bring closure to families of lost ones. It could alleviate people's fear of death.
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 02, 2006 06:49 AM |
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Edited by Fuzzier at 08:16, 02 Jul 2006.
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Medical technology benefits mankind, it respects life, but treats death as an opponent. But when someone are dead, we let them go. Althought myself object against cloning, using genetic means to prevent aging, like nuclear weapons, I wish we will never cross such dangerous lines. But as a whole, it's goal is to benefit mankind, including you and me. Other technologies do the same thing, they make our everyday life better, no matter computers or dynamite. And technologies themselves are netural, it depends on the user, so we make rules, laws and contracts to prevent them from harming ourselves, and those who misuse them are considered evil beings.
Necromancy is quite another thing. It does not make anyone live better, its turn the dead to mindless tools for its own benefits. It feeds on the dead and the living to make progress. Necromancers are wizards who focus on Necromancy, they did nothing good while keep doing bad things, so they are evil beings.
Your heart is too kind to believe that Necromancers are helpless innocents, as if they can keep studying Necromancy without contact with human world --- how can a miner mine gold without a gold mine, or how can water be pumped without a water source --- necromancers need materials. No necromancer is innocent.
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Vicheron
Known Hero
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posted July 02, 2006 08:57 AM |
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How many times do I have to say this, the average undead is not mindless. They retain the intelligence and memories they had when they were alive. Do you honestly believe that the world wouldn't be better if we had the ability to bring back people like Archimedes, Liu Hui, Al-Farisi, and Isaac Newton so they could continue their studies?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 02, 2006 11:09 AM |
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How many times do I have to say this, the average undead is not mindless. They retain the intelligence and memories they had when they were alive. Do you honestly believe that the world wouldn't be better if we had the ability to bring back people like Archimedes, Liu Hui, Al-Farisi, and Isaac Newton so they could continue their studies?
That is certainly a point where I agree with Fuzzier.Raising undead is bad in its self but allowing a person to actually return and be conscious of it is terrible(even if he had asked so).In H5 it is obvious that Nikolai became a troubled soul,tormented by the possibility that he could not go back while also feeling like a vampire.The ends don't always justify the means even for the good of humanity.
But raising dead is only a part of necromancy.Yes it deals with death but so does a mercenary who kills for money and survival although this doesn't make him evil.As Vicheron said I didn't ignore the bad ones(damn I even posted it myself) and even cited some not really evil characters.Nor did I use real world standards,though you did some posts ago which is out of place for this situation.What is that about supply anyway?Necromancy deals with corporeal elements as much as spiritual.There is always the aspect of communicating with spirits and learning secrets of death or of our world.And seeing that you still go "They blah,blah evil,unnatural,twisted" even when I provide positive bits of info(aforementioned characters) there is not much else to be told,I rest my case.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 02, 2006 01:56 PM |
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I do not think that pairing towns which is of what opposite is possible, since for example Necropolis stands for death. Death is opposed to Life, thus Light alignment such as Haven and Nature alignment, such as Sylvan will be against it too.
I certainly think you can pair the cities, the game and the campaigns very much tells us so as well. I just think you're leaning to much on the Heroes 4 theme of the towns in this analysis. Haven is not so much focussed on "Life" as it is on "Rightfulness" - or "Virtue". In that respect, it is directly opposed to the Inferno, which is essentially the impersonation of "Sin". Sylvan and Dungeon is clearly opposed, because the Dungeon works for "Destruction" whereas the Sylvan works for "Creation". Necropolis and Academy are related, because they both take their centre in knowledge - after all, the Necromancers were renegade Wizards. However, Academy is "Knowledge for Enlightenment" whereas Necropolis is "Knowledge for Power". You could also put it another way, Academy wants Power Of Life - thus, they animate materials - whereas Necropolis wants Power Of Death. Thus, I'd say the factions very much stands as opposed pairds:
Haven (Virtue) vs. Inferno (Sin)
Sylvan (Creation) vs. Dungeon (Destruction)
Academy (Enlightenment/Knowledge) vs. Necropolis (Power)
and possibly:
Fortress (Dwarves) (Law) vs. Stronghold (Orcs) (Chaos)
Sanctuary (Nagas) (Neutrality)
These would each relate to an alignment like:
Lawful Good vs. Chaotic Evil - Academy vs. Necropolis
Neutral Good vs. Neutral Evil - Haven vs. Inferno
Chaotic Good vs. Lawfull Evil - Sylvan vs. Dungeon
Lawfull Neutral vs. Chaotic Neutral - Fortress vs. Stronghold
True Neutral - Sanctuary.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 02, 2006 02:21 PM |
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Nice ideas .As for the new factions we'll just have to wait and see.BTW necropolis' opposition against haven is reflected in the town tracks.If I am not mistaken it it the same melody where haven has a heroic,powerful feel while necropolis seems more subtle and sneaky.
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Lich_King
Honorable
Supreme Hero
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posted July 02, 2006 03:09 PM |
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But as you can see the town conseption is not really that acurate. Necropolis works out with Haven as allies (Isabel with Nioclai), and the other Haven hero (Godric) is working with Sylvan, Dungeon and Academy.
Also what kind of Knowledge foe Enlightment can be when people experiment on humans with demonic blood and then enslaves them... or Making beastment for the purpose of entertainment and protection. I think that Academy and Necropolis are same in terms of philosophy, just Necropolis gains that power through Corpses and Death magic, and Academy does that through Magical artifacts, bizzare experiments and magic which controls elements, destruction and etc.
Bseides Sylvan elves themselves are responsible for turning their kind into Dark elves.
So in general it's not so simple as it was in Homm3.
And in my opinion, complicated things are much more interesting than simple evil vs good story. Evil vs. Good is banal, since evil and good can turn vice versa.
And someone rised question about modern medicine. I'm studying to be a doctor myself, and all I can tell that it's not always directed at benefiting mankind... And sometimes benefiction comes in dare consequences, and sometimes money are involved in that.
And in conclusion I just want to say that there are no stereotypes these days, all depends on a person itself. You can be good necromancer if you were raised as one all your life and saw waht kind of things can destruction and misery bring, then making your mind to change that. or you can be evil priest, who decides that he can use the lore and gods to make people obey his twisted thoughts.
There is no good or bad, there's only gray and different perspectives.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 02, 2006 03:28 PM |
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I follow you on most of this, Lich King - however, HOMAM is not real life, and I think it does make sense to say that Necromancers could be regarded as mostly evil in the world of HOMAM (5 included). Which was the original topic. I also think it makes fairly good sense to say that certain towns are opposed in their interests and/or core philosophies - however, it is certainly not as clear cut as the Heroes 4 system. Of course, I prefer to have things categorized  - so I like the idea of being able to lable each town at one alignment - but there is some liberto for variation. Also, I think it's interesting that two equally likely "Alignment" schemes can be made - in the first, the factions opposed to each other are diagonal to each other, representing the situation where the factions are completely opposite. In the other, the opposed factions are not completely opposite to each other, but rather share one part of their alingment and differ on the other - thus Haven and Infernal both represent the Lawfull side of the alignment, but are opposed as Lawfull Good vs. Lawfull Evil. Similarly, the Academy and Necropolis both stand for neutrality, but good vs. evil. The last one fits much better with the traditional alignment ascribed to these different classes. I guess one could interpret this in many ways, and there is no "correct" solution as with the Heroes 4 cities.
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God2
Adventuring Hero
Your benevolent deity
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posted July 02, 2006 04:12 PM |
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Edited by God2 at 16:14, 02 Jul 2006.
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Medical technology benefits mankind, it respects life, but treats death as an opponent. But when someone are dead, we let them go. Althought myself object against cloning, using genetic means to prevent aging, like nuclear weapons, I wish we will never cross such dangerous lines. But as a whole, it's goal is to benefit mankind, including you and me. Other technologies do the same thing, they make our everyday life better, no matter computers or dynamite. And technologies themselves are netural, it depends on the user, so we make rules, laws and contracts to prevent them from harming ourselves, and those who misuse them are considered evil beings.
Necromancy is quite another thing. It does not make anyone live better, its turn the dead to mindless tools for its own benefits. It feeds on the dead and the living to make progress. Necromancers are wizards who focus on Necromancy, they did nothing good while keep doing bad things, so they are evil beings.
Your heart is too kind to believe that Necromancers are helpless innocents, as if they can keep studying Necromancy without contact with human world --- how can a miner mine gold without a gold mine, or how can water be pumped without a water source --- necromancers need materials. No necromancer is innocent.
Interesting how this has become a debate of real-life moral questions.
Firstly: What is a corpse? A corpse is a collection of biological material, nothing more. There is no evidence of any soul or spiritual force related to corpses, so I fail to see how making such a corpse go around could be evil. Gross, and no doubt offending to many, yes. But evil?
If so, then it is evil to make automated machines as well. They have just as much a soul as we, and are made up of materials found in nature.
Speaking of evil.. I'd say evil and good are just tools used to judge others by friend or foe. Those we do not like, are afraid of, or cannot understand, we easily call evil. Those whose actions are liked we call good. Ergo, "evil" is a 100% subjective term, nothing more.
Death is not "evil". Death is merely a change. The materials that your body is composed of will be reassigned and distributed around in the ecosystem.
Regarding feelings, they are just part of a communications and signalling system. They interpret the situation for you, to make you able to act on stimuli. Without pain, one would not be able know when one was damaged, without taste and smell, we would be unable to identify different chemicals, without sexual arousal, our reproductional ability would be hampered, and so on..
Anyway, my opinion regarding the question in this topic:
In game terms..
LG: Haven (follow rules and gods in the name of good)
NG: Academy (Does not follow gods, but merely their own ideas in the name of good)
CG: Sylvan (Has a very laid-back lifestyle, in the name of good)
LE: Necropolis (Have a very clear agenda and purpose, in the name of evil)
NE: Dungeon
CE: Inferno (they are.. chaotic in nature  )
Otherwise of the game setting, a necromancer by thought would be true neutral, as he only believes in the cycle of life really. I haven't really played the campaign, so I do not know how the necromancers there feel about the world.
Nevertheless, I believe a necromancer by actions would have trouble fitting in in our society.
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www.shoryuken.com
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted July 03, 2006 02:59 AM |
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uh...
pretty much what god2 said...
of course I'd rather have Sylvan (or rather Nature) as True Neutral (mostly because Life, Death, Chaos and Order are all found in Nature) ...but oh well...
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 03, 2006 08:46 AM |
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Well, I think it's necessary to make a destinction here. Necromancers are not priests of the Death God (if there is sucs a thing in Ashan). Typically, there will be people who revere Death from a religious point of view - and these people will mostly tend towards Neutrality - after all, Death comes to everyone, Good or Evil, Lawfull or Outlaw. However, these are not Necromancers. Necromancers twist the laws of Death to serve their own ways and increase their power. There is a huge difference here, and that deffinitely make Necromancers evil, as I see it. In the classical view, Necromancers will be considered Neutral Evil, because they neither strive particularly towards Law nor Chaos.
About the Sylvan - Sylvan Elves would deffinitely belong with good, because they cherish the thought of preservation and not taking life if it's not needed.
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 03, 2006 10:05 AM |
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Edited by Fuzzier at 11:23, 03 Jul 2006.
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Well I guess I was too sticky to HoMM3, while HoMM5 has yet to reveal much more things.
alcibiades has very interesting points.
God2:
Firstly, I guess you're an atheist while talking about corpse. But that doesn't mean everyone treats corpse as merely a collection of biological material; and that doesn't mean it can be an excuse for scavenging human corpse as a collection of biological material. We have certain instincts, and we can never act as if we were non-human. And there're so many things out of our reach, and at that time we restort to philosophical imaginations/theories (no matter materialism or idealism), and that's why so many physicists eventially gained religious beliefs. My point here is that we humans have emotions and feelings, we seldom consider the corpses of our beloved or our ancestors as a collection of biological material, as long as the dead still holds a position in our heart. That why both are collections of biological material, we eat fruits and beefs, but no human corpse.
Secondly, speaking of evil. Again it shows that you're an atheist. You're not outsider your community/environment, you're not a pair of neutral eyes hanging in the space observing the Earth. So I'm sure you have your own sets of rules of telling good from evil. But you're using an materialistic point of view to see things. Yes, certain thing, under certain circumstances can be good, while under others can be evil. But that doesn't solve thing, you have to judge them according to what the game tells you. So don't imagine necromancers MAY do what, or MAY not do what. What the game tells you? (But I know it's hard, since Necromancers are too far from us, we (or most of us) have no experience with them in real life.)
Thirdly, I never said death is "evil", what I said was necromancers disrupt death, they disregard both life and death. They refuse to enter the great cycle of nature, break the harmony of the nature, thus they cannot be neutral.
Lawful: believe that law and order is a must for any society to ensure the quality of life, and there¡¯s a clean hierarchy between lords and servants. (Haven, Inferno)
Chaotic: believe that laws and rules are shackles, and actions are carried out by personal motives. (Necropolis, Dungeon)
Neutral (L-C): have no preference of law or order, but chaos is not preferred either. (Sylvan, Academy)
Good: bring benefits to other people, and cause the least harm. (Haven)
Evil: seek personal gains and pleasure, believe that the strong have the right to take what they want from the weak, and the weak are there to be exploited. (Necropolis, Dungeon, Inferno)
Neutral (G-E): preserve the harmony of nature, try not to conflict with either good or evil, but sometimes forced to join forces with certain alignment to see forces remain in balance. (Sylvan, Academy)
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