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| Thread: Are Necromancers Evil? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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WilX
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 26, 2006 09:34 PM |
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I suppose thats true, you can't have good without evil, and you all that. Personally a question the existiance of both, it's a matter of perspective. If you really look at it from the point of view of each faction none of them are evil save Inferno. Inferno is the only one attacking for the fun of it. And like I said before Inferno is the only faction that worships a chaos aligned diety...so yeah.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 26, 2006 11:18 PM |
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For the fun of it...Yeah the have the urge.But both dungeon and necro kill for gain and power which is just as evil,though to a lesser extent as it is produced by lack of morals and realism.Killing for survival is understandable but delivering it with no emotion for selfish reasons...What about the occultism,plot,betrayals,sacrifising,raising as skeletons part?It's kinda dark too.
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WilX
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 27, 2006 01:11 AM |
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For the fun of it...Yeah the have the urge.But both dungeon and necro kill for gain and power which is just as evil,though to a lesser extent as it is produced by lack of morals and realism.Killing for survival is understandable but delivering it with no emotion for selfish reasons...What about the occultism,plot,betrayals,sacrifising,raising as skeletons part?It's kinda dark too.
I don't consider raising skelitons evil. It's unconventional sure, but seeing as how there is no after life imo, animating a corpse is no different from animating a rock. Occultism is jibberish it's just a term put on beliefs that differ from the norm. Plot and betrayal I consider underhanded, but really The Wizards are the ones more responsible for that. They decided they needed to overthrow the growing necromancer political party before it gained strength. Also, if you read Banshee's profile it speaks about Haven and it's "purifying" procedures wich I consider the most evil.
And if you look at things from the "Dark Elves" point of view. Who is really responsible there. The Demons were attacking and the other elves refused to support the border. So, they had no alternative but to defend themselvs by any means. Then the demons, set fire to a elvin city, killing a powerful icon. The dark elves where unjustly blamed and banished. They are pretty much in the same boat as the necromancers. But, the elves found out about the demon's responsibility and tried to make up. Thats the only differance. But, would you forgive the elves after they unjustly hunted and killed your people and banished from the land?
It's completely rediculous to consider Necro and Dungeon evil. They were more forced to defend themselves than Haven, Wizards, and Sylvan. They were pretty much forced into a mold of evil because the good guys needed an enemy. That does not make someone evil. That makes them a victim.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 27, 2006 02:07 AM |
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I don't consider raising skelitons evil. It's unconventional sure, but seeing as how there is no after life imo, animating a corpse is no different from animating a rock. Occultism is jibberish it's just a term put on beliefs that differ from the norm. Plot and betrayal I consider underhanded, but really The Wizards are the ones more responsible for that. They decided they needed to overthrow the growing necromancer political party before it gained strength. Also, if you read Banshee's profile it speaks about Haven and it's "purifying" procedures wich I consider the most evil.
And if you look at things from the "Dark Elves" point of view. Who is really responsible there. The Demons were attacking and the other elves refused to support the border. So, they had no alternative but to defend themselvs by any means. Then the demons, set fire to a elvin city, killing a powerful icon. The dark elves where unjustly blamed and banished. They are pretty much in the same boat as the necromancers. But, the elves found out about the demon's responsibility and tried to make up. Thats the only differance. But, would you forgive the elves after they unjustly hunted and killed your people and banished from the land?
It's completely rediculous to consider Necro and Dungeon evil. They were more forced to defend themselves than Haven, Wizards, and Sylvan. They were pretty much forced into a mold of evil because the good guys needed an enemy. That does not make someone evil. That makes them a victim.
Not raising as an act but the implications of it.Also we must not forget that necros to increase their ranks they'd slaughter villages and killing innocent people.About plot and betrayal I was referring more to the dungeon which is a mirror of their corrupted way of thought and everyday life.Sorry I wasn't very clear on that.I know about the holy inquisition in the dark ages which differs little from the one haven waged.While the blame is to be on academy(I'd still want them out but not this way) I can only say that the necros made their own path from then on.It is not certain yet if Markal is the typical necromancer in H5 or others had different values but if so he went beyond revenge.I'll wait for future campaigns to judge but if that holds true they just attack any land they can claim and kill its inhabitants to raise more skellies.Evil enough?Dark elves:Are you kidding me?These ones are a ripoff of the darkelf trilogy drow as the devs admitted and I can tell you that they are evil.Judging from H5 though we yield these:Assasin is a common job,they use slaves,kill their kin for power and some other sinister things.They may not interfere with other factions but it's a matter of time for someone to rise and try to conquer all-in the mean time they kill each other to stay in shape,how lovely.The past hardly matters and even though I'm on their side against the elves' genocide they live this way NOW.A victim but a bitter evil victim nontheless.Lack of morals and senseless killing for ones's gains are and always will be an evil combination no matter what preceded that.
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted September 27, 2006 05:44 AM |
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they use slaves
Then wizard is a evil faction, since they created the slaves. So that makes 4 evil factions against 2 good factions. But since the Sylvans and the Haven ally with the Academy, that makes 6 evil factions! Wow. Haha.
Does the fact that Markal is evil make Necromancers evil?
In the campaign, (I think scenario 1 of campagin 1), Isabel killed a group of peasants because they are in her way. So, Isabel is evil(?) --> Haven is evil? The Knights of the Holy Falcon empired invades Thuidana's kingdom, so they should be considered evil? I tend to think that we have placed too much of our personal judgement into judging who is right and who is evil.
Besides, Necromancers need not plunder villages to get skellies. They can raise the armies that have invaded them. This is more of survival than pure evil.
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Ambidext
Adventuring Hero
Wandering knight
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posted September 27, 2006 07:58 AM |
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I really like Gauldoth in the H4 Death campaign. He's intellectual, deep and philosophical. The way he describes makes the rest of the world seem so stupid, and he is truly the only necro hero I admire. He actually made me like the undead after H2. Hehe.
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diablo-jr
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 27, 2006 02:22 PM |
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well if you look at it fromm all sides then lets start at thge beging of the heroes 5 campaigne to were I'm at right now.so we start with the demons attacking a wedding and starting the war.then haven goes to war with the inferno faction. Isabelle kills everyone that gets in her way of building the army for her husband and king.and in the end gets her husband killed.aaaaaat pionts in that camp. you are completely evil in what you have to do.but its all in the name of good b/c your at war with the demons.so you get to play the inferno faction next so you would expect to have to kill everyone and every thing in your path.no you start off running for your life and killing one of your own kind.and in the next step you find yourself trying to stop your own kind from getting the one artifact that can turn the tide of battle.what is this your not killing your enemy just tring to stop your own kind.then you side with this elf but he forgets to let the rest in on his plans and you have to kill abunch of elves that would have been better of to just let you go through.and at the end your purged of all evil and made good again. that nice the one faction that started the war and you spend more time trying to save th queen and stop your own kind from winning the war.Then you get to play the necro's with a hereo that has a good reason for not liking grifendor as he's talking to the old dead queen.so now you have a necro that is going to get revenge for his banishment by turning the new queen to his side. so what happens right from the start the wizards are out to stop you what is it to them if your going to go see the queen.(wizards supressors)then everybody agrees to the deal.and even goldren does and he helps kill the wizards as well.but doen't trust his on queen so he keeps the first arifact needed to do the deed.by the time you get the other artifacts you have to basicaly kill most of the wizards.but what are they doing with the necro artifacts trying to keep the power for them selvesor trying to save the world.then doesn't goldren turn on the deal he agreed to in the first place so there you go necro. betrayed again.so what happens you have to fend of thw wizards and also get back the artifact that was yours in the first place.so in short with the help of haven you get to get revenge on the wizards and turn half the haven empire on its self why to raise the one thing that will turn the tides of war.now I'm still doing the dungeon campaigne but from what i can tell your new ver of the inferno heroe is back to unite the clans before they are destroyed by the haven inferno war. and the only way to do that is to kill your own kind again did I miss something.now as for the last two parts I don't know yet but so far every faction has done something to benefit the own kind in the war that haven and inferno started with each other and drug every one else into it.so the way I look at it is every faction has done something evil and all in the name of good for there peoples.so there old saying is still true all is fair in love and war.and there is no good or evil there is only the survivors and the dead.but thats just my opion on the campaigne so far.sorry for the spelling and long winded reply.
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good hunting
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vigant
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 27, 2006 06:24 PM |
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Death isnt evil itself, it's a part of the circle of life - birth-life-death-birth and so on. But necromancers are purely evil. Undeath is unnatural - necromancers are animating corpses without souls - thats evil. And they want to do that with everybody. EEVILL
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 28, 2006 01:16 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 13:18, 28 Sep 2006.
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diablo-jr well said.
"Such things as please us, we denominate good, those which displease us, evil."
As for Dungeon acting the way it does. It is culture fit for the needs of Dungeon society. Survival of the fittest, as it is with nature herself. Is nature evil also? Occultism means Hidden Knowledge (Malassa) After all, they are all offsprings of Asha. (she didn't set anyone above another)
Sylvan (primitive society) committed a genocide, something considered MOST evil on todays standards. Yet they apologised, so everyone seems to be ok with it..
Haven (standard society) is as complex as humans can be, there is no good and evil there, only individuals (same goes for all races naturally)
Inferno, anarchy. Individuality over law & order. They do massive killings, yes. How does that differ for example from Havens attack on Tuidhanas kingdom. That it is organised killing, how Good. As being imprisoned, there is really no other way for then to re-surface without fighting. They want to see the societies collapse, and they believe that to be GOOD for the individual... Yet if anyone is to be called evil, inferno is the only one for worshipping the destroyer Urgash. (but this is a religious definition of evil which I don't use.)
Academy, (advanced society) science & knowledge. Is science evil? Gene manipulation. Medicin. All very difficult ethical questions, but surely evil is not the word.
To the topic itsel, Necromancers. The art of necromany exists, so that it can be practiced. Why would it exist otherways. Necromancy is only opposed by the rival political & magical forces, out of fear of loosing their own political power. Not by Asha.
"that which one calls evil is merely ignorance, and that which one calls good is merely that which everyone desires"
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted September 28, 2006 01:33 PM |
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After reading through 4 pages..... my conclusion: NO, necromancers are NOT evil. They practice necromancy for their personal needs, eg. they may not be ready to relinquish life yet, they continue their studies, and often teach others along the way. (trying plaing MM series...)
Necromancers are a neutral force, just as people are.
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diablo-jr
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 28, 2006 05:56 PM |
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well I have to return the complament well said to you as well shauku83 when playing the game you have to look into the history and religeon that is in the game not what we see as religeon it dosen't fit to gether.simply put one is for fantasy and one is used by reality for every day use.so in the game necro's are nuteraul but in reality they would be considered evil just look at the saleum witch hut.but this thread can be debated for ever do to the fact not everyone see thing the same as each other.
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good hunting
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted September 29, 2006 10:13 AM |
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There is no such things as good and evil. It is only point of view. Every race is good for itself and bad for the enemies. In life is the same - thing are good for somebody and bad(evil) for other peoples. Good and evil are absract types of behavior which came from human society norms. Most of this norm came from the different religions in the world. So i think good and evil are only matter of imagination for what is right and what not. In this case if you imagine you are necro - necromancer will be good for you. If necros are your enemies thie will be evil
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 29, 2006 12:27 PM |
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There is no such things as good and evil. It is only point of view. Every race is good for itself and bad for the enemies. In life is the same - thing are good for somebody and bad(evil) for other peoples. Good and evil are absract types of behavior which came from human society norms. Most of this norm came from the different religions in the world. So i think good and evil are only matter of imagination for what is right and what not. In this case if you imagine you are necro - necromancer will be good for you. If necros are your enemies thie will be evil
Snap out of it,evil is quite real and has nothing to do with misconceptions and enmity.Some people may view it in a different way yes but it's still there.Some people will want to hurt you for no apparent reason or to gain an advantage and won't shed a tear about it.And not because you have done something to them or they consider you an enemy.
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WilX
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 29, 2006 04:03 PM |
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Snap out of it,evil is quite real and has nothing to do with misconceptions and enmity.Some people may view it in a different way yes but it's still there.Some people will want to hurt you for no apparent reason or to gain an advantage and won't shed a tear about it.And not because you have done something to them or they consider you an enemy.
Even so I agree that evil is simply a product of point of view mixed with the weak minds of the masses. The majority of people can't stand to have things unlabled, so they have to put things in their little boxes labled good and evil. If you live in reality you should know that things will never fit into your little boxes. It's a tiered practice. But, thats a little far from the topic of this game. Necro's are not evil, they are neutral, because they we're forced into war and because they are simply misunderstood.
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diablo-jr
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 29, 2006 05:10 PM |
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well i would have to agree with that. now let also remember the haven heroe that is now part of the necro's.and why is b/c she was torched to death and her soul just can't rest so were was her good sarvior?she was left to die now you call her evil for being a restless soul.I wouldn't blame her for wanting revenge wouldn't you?
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good hunting
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hobowu
Known Hero
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posted October 01, 2006 01:35 PM |
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Good and evil are absract types of behavior which came from human society norms.
I'm not quite sure here Have you ever done something that you KNOW is quite "evil" with the intentional aim of unsettling another person? you do sort of get the feeling that you're doing something you're not supposed to... i think it may be referred to as a conscience. But then, in a sense, you're right. What's evil to one person may be good to another. Conversely, what's good to one person maybe evil to another. The debate continues... we're going offtopic...branching into real life semantic discussions on the meaning of the words "good" and "evil" .
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 01, 2006 02:36 PM |
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well i would have to agree with that. now let also remember the haven heroe that is now part of the necro's.and why is b/c she was torched to death and her soul just can't rest so were was her good sarvior?she was left to die now you call her evil for being a restless soul.I wouldn't blame her for wanting revenge wouldn't you?
As for this poor little restless soul she was a b*tch in the first place killing any suspects just in case they were corrupt.The fact that she was 'overzealous' doesn't mean haven was responsible since the demon cultists should be found,however she had it coming.It is not clear whether she was killed by the cultists or the kin of the fallen innocents but it would be natural for her to want revenge on just them.Necros coveted her knowledge and I doubt it would be on the cultists no,it would be about the griffin empire and to act against it implies that she either isn't in control of herself or that she acts injustly once again considering they did nothing to her.Left to die far from griffin lands and authority?Funny,she should know the risk.
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WilX
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 01, 2006 05:31 PM |
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Quote:
Good and evil are absract types of behavior which came from human society norms.
I'm not quite sure here Have you ever done something that you KNOW is quite "evil" with the intentional aim of unsettling another person? you do sort of get the feeling that you're doing something you're not supposed to... i think it may be referred to as a conscience. But then, in a sense, you're right. What's evil to one person may be good to another. Conversely, what's good to one person maybe evil to another. The debate continues... we're going offtopic...branching into real life semantic discussions on the meaning of the words "good" and "evil" .
Those feelings are just a subconcious reaction to ideals that have been melded into your brain since child birth. For instance if you were raised in a canbalistic society you would feel nothing more than you would feel eating a salad. But, like you said this is off topic. By definition of the game, Necros are not followers of Urgash or any of Urgash's demon gods so therefore they are not truely evil.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 01, 2006 06:52 PM |
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Quote:
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Good and evil are absract types of behavior which came from human society norms.
I'm not quite sure here Have you ever done something that you KNOW is quite "evil" with the intentional aim of unsettling another person? you do sort of get the feeling that you're doing something you're not supposed to... i think it may be referred to as a conscience. But then, in a sense, you're right. What's evil to one person may be good to another. Conversely, what's good to one person maybe evil to another. The debate continues... we're going offtopic...branching into real life semantic discussions on the meaning of the words "good" and "evil" .
Those feelings are just a subconcious reaction to ideals that have been melded into your brain since child birth. For instance if you were raised in a canbalistic society you would feel nothing more than you would feel eating a salad. But, like you said this is off topic. By definition of the game, Necros are not followers of Urgash or any of Urgash's demon gods so therefore they are not truely evil.
LOLOLOL!
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diablo-jr
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 02, 2006 03:38 PM |
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now that is well said and is very true we are raised with ideals as to what is right and wrong.But this thread is about what is right and wrong in the game.Now I know I wasn't raised in the game enviroment so you get to mix a little reality with a little fantasy and thats were the line is getting blurred.you can't do that it is nothing more than fantasy in the game play.and as the story line in the game makes the necro's newtrual.and nothing more.
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good hunting
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