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| Thread: Are Necromancers Evil? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 03, 2006 12:24 PM |
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The discussion seems to have wandered completely off topic - but I have to add here, that being an ateist has nothing to do with how you consider good or evil or life and death (and the dead).
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God2
Adventuring Hero
Your benevolent deity
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posted July 03, 2006 03:06 PM |
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Edited by God2 at 15:07, 03 Jul 2006.
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Firstly, I guess you're an atheist while talking about corpse. But that doesn't mean everyone treats corpse as merely a collection of biological material; and that doesn't mean it can be an excuse for scavenging human corpse as a collection of biological material.
As I said, this will no doubt offend people, but that does not mean I am willing to classify it as "evil". Human corpses will be scavenged by something or someone no matter what you do. Try flinging it into outer space if you do not want it disturbed by other organisms.
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You're not outsider your community/environment, you're not a pair of neutral eyes hanging in the space observing the Earth. So I'm sure you have your own sets of rules of telling good from evil.
Personally, I advocate objectivity, neutrality, and liberality. I try to avoid prejudice. I also try to not use the words good or evil about people in a normal, everyday context, as I consider that to be quite arrogant. After all, why should I be more right than the other people? Why should my opinions be better than theirs?
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My point here is that we humans have emotions and feelings, we seldom consider the corpses of our beloved or our ancestors as a collection of biological material, as long as the dead still holds a position in our heart.
That why both are collections of biological material, we eat fruits and beefs, but no human corpse.
From www.wikipedia.org
Cannibalism as a funeral rite
Several cultures have been known to eat their dead loved ones as a matter of course, such as the Fore tribe of New Guinea.
As you can see, what you (or I) believe is right is not agreed upon by everyone else. Also
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So don't imagine necromancers MAY do what, or MAY not do what. What the game tells you? (But I know it's hard, since Necromancers are too far from us, we (or most of us) have no experience with them in real life.)
Thirdly, I never said death is "evil", what I said was necromancers disrupt death, they disregard both life and death. They refuse to enter the great cycle of nature, break the harmony of the nature, thus they cannot be neutral.
Well, for one, they do not exist in real life. Of course, a fresh corpse could be modified to walk around if you had a way to control the muscles with electrical impulses. 
Anyway, as I said, I haven't played the campaign, so I would not really know. And I have placed them as Lawful Evil. Lawful because they follow the belief or idea that everyone should rather be (un)dead than alive. Evil because and they are willing to act on that belief actively. (by making sure people ARE dead. )
As mentioned by other users, we seem to have wandered a bit.
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www.shoryuken.com
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Fuzzier
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 03, 2006 03:57 PM |
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Edited by Fuzzier at 15:59, 03 Jul 2006.
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So God2, I think your alignment is True Neutral (just kidding).
Well, I remembere some one said: give me a proposition, and I will find evidence to prove it. Many propositions (not all, of course), under different circumstances, from different points of views, imply different results. Does that mean most things are neutral? Everyone has her/his own opinion.
I guess we really should use the definitions in game and stories in game to judge good or evil. What I use is traditional D&D definitions of good, evil, lawful, chaotic, neutral. I hope it works.
We'll probaly never agree on this .
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 03, 2006 09:36 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 21:52, 03 Jul 2006.
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I used to think that way too but unfortunately d&d alignments aren't perfectly accurate and each of us perceives them in a different way.If you ask for a typical necromancer's alignment you are likely to hear all 3 evil combinations.The notion is a bit abstract and when a character borders between say,lawful-neutral,good-neutral things can get messy.
Anyone who has played Baldur's Gate should wonder how such a calculating,and intelligent person(17 int) as Sarevok is Chaotic Evil.Takes a lot of experience to judge well...
IMO necros are better described as Neutral Evil.They use necromancy purposefully to suit their evil needs and many seem to have dreams of eradicating the living.
On the other hand they are not like gentlemen who would not break their word and while laws are needed for an evil chars to work and live together(Deyja,Heresh) they do not rely on hierarchy to protect their interests.Nor are they so intent on causing havoc as a demon might,they are more civil(not too passionate about it) and have measured agressiveness.So not really lawful neither chaotic.You might also want to check what neutral evil is,it seems fitting.Just my interpretation.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted July 04, 2006 12:30 AM |
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I feel that in the game there are:
2 goods (Sylvan, Haven)
2 evils (Dungeon, Demons)
1 good aligned neutral (Acadamy)
1 evil aligned neutral (Necropolis)
I feel that in the next expansion(s), there will be:
1 good aligned neutral (Dwarf based)
1 evil aligned neutral (Goblin/swamp based)
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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dkolb
Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
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posted September 14, 2006 08:47 PM |
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Edited by dkolb at 21:18, 14 Sep 2006.
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*Huge Storyline Spoilers
Read at your own risk*
strictly speaking of Heroes 5 storyline I would say that.
And keep in mind this is stictly my opinion and I am basing all of this on the storyline of Heroes 5.
Haven and Sylvan are "good"
Inferno and Necropolis are "evil"
And Dungeon and Academy are "neutral"
The Inferno, Haven, and Sylvan are obvious but here is why I believe the necropolis to be evil:
Isabel sorta starts off as a good person but in some ways she is "seduced" by Markal and is brought over to the evil persuasion.
The prospect of Nicolai being revived is the fruit of the forbidden tree than Markal offers.
The land's corruption can in some ways be seen as a metaphor for "sin" or "evil".
Obviously the Necropolis is not seen as a good force, because Godric who plays the part of the "holy knight" resists to the point of arrest, Lord Caldwell takes a contingency of Haven troops and seeks asylum in the Sylvan lands (interesting if they will link the "rouge haven" in the expansion)
But that's not really what makes it "evil"
Because of Markal's manipulation, countless lives are destroyed, I doubt anyone will dispute that. Isabel's power is able to resurrect the Necropolis, who then proceeds to viciously attack the Academy and the Sylvan forces. And in the end Isabel, ends up damning the soul of Nicolai, because of her own selfishness.
Nicolai does not "enjoy" being an undead, he doesn't think it is normal or a contribution.
That and he states that he was in the H5 equivalent of heaven before being forced to become a vampire lord.
But even the killing of living things with no provocation is evil.
If you believe that taking the lives of others is "Neutral" (especially in the case of the Sylvan who do nothing to deserve it) then I suggest you try it, and have fun in jail.
Meanwhile the Academy, in the beginning of the game does not concern itself with the battle between good and evil. It really doesn't care, for all we know they might not even view them in that way.
Actually the Academy is heaven for atheists, and people who believe science is the answer to everything. To them maybe all truth is relative.
However the Academy does have a streak of revenge in them and they get back at the necromancers.
So I believe the Academy is in essence neutral only getting involved once they are attacked.
The Dungeon in this game spends more time attacking the Inferno and the Necropolis than it does the "good" guys. And the dungeon acts in accordance with Raelag's wishes throughout the game. Therefore I think the actions of the Dungeon are dependant on the actions of the leader of the dungeon.
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Fofa
Famous Hero
Famous? Me?!
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posted September 15, 2006 02:06 AM |
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Yes! Someone agrees with me on the 'neutral' alignment of the Dungeon! I've always thought of them as neutral, just wanting to be left alone.
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soup
Adventuring Hero
Thinks Gorgans are cute
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posted September 15, 2006 02:23 AM |
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Necropolises evil depends on your point of veiw I say 89% nuetral 11% evil.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 15, 2006 02:38 AM |
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Yes! Someone agrees with me on the 'neutral' alignment of the Dungeon! I've always thought of them as neutral, just wanting to be left alone.
On some point following the orders of your leader is being neutral but in this case it is out of fear and no choice in the matter.They have specialization in assasinations and poisons,enjoy slavery(controversial) and act for their own gain eradicating those that stand in their way.Sounds kinda evil in my opinion.
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dkolb
Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
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posted September 15, 2006 03:39 AM |
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Edited by dkolb at 04:12, 15 Sep 2006.
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On some point following the orders of your leader is being neutral but in this case it is out of fear and no choice in the matter.They have specialization in assasinations and poisons,enjoy slavery(controversial) and act for their own gain eradicating those that stand in their way.Sounds kinda evil in my opinion.
maybe maybe not.
What if Raelag decided to renew an alliance with the Harmony?
There are ways that the leader can be considered good (as Raelag probably was) and ways that they could be evil. So I think it is completely dependant on the leader thus making the inhabitants of the dungeon neutral in my opinion.
I also agree with how evil the necropolis is, depends on the way you look at things.
I can definately see what people are saying about the death town in Heroes 4. And I can see that town being called neutral but I just don't see it in Heroes 5, tell me where I'm wrong.
To get a tad bit off the beaten path here:
To be honest though, personally it make for a more exciting game if there are clear distinctions between good and evil factions because the conflict is that much more intense. The battle becomes not just a physical battle, but a battle of ideals.
What those ideals stand for is up to the player to decide.
Let's take the haven just as an example
If your a christian, you may identify with the symbolism, the angels and the strong ideals and beliefs of the haven.
But a non-christian may identify with the town just as much because of the human aspect and the beauty of the town. Maybe they will see it as a romantic town full of knights in shining armor.
maybe someone will identify with the town because just the fact that you think the champions look cool. There are a million reasons and that's part of why heroes is so wonderful, because there is something for everyone.
Some people enjoy playing as evil factions. I know I do sometimes.
Heck sometimes I play them BECAUSE they are EVIL!
Heres my opinion, like it or not:
So my question is why does the necropolis suddenly have to be neutral when it was already awesome when it was evil?
you guys are ruining it
I don't want to hear some philisophical bullcrap about how skeletons are normal and misunderstood, they are frickin skeletons, hello?
If a skeleton walked up to you with some axe you wouldn't be interested in starting some deep conversation about tolerance and acceptance you would get the 'ell out of there if you had any wit!
Besides I mean Sandro is a badass, if the necropolis heroes turned into pantywaists he'd straighten them out. The dude is the antithesis of neutral, and that's why H3 is still so freakin fun to play.
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted September 15, 2006 04:50 AM |
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Quote:
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Yes! Someone agrees with me on the 'neutral' alignment of the Dungeon! I've always thought of them as neutral, just wanting to be left alone.
On some point following the orders of your leader is being neutral but in this case it is out of fear and no choice in the matter.They have specialization in assasinations and poisons,enjoy slavery(controversial) and act for their own gain eradicating those that stand in their way.Sounds kinda evil in my opinion.
Those may not agree with your or my ideals of good/evil but you can't really say they are evil based on that alone. Thinking back to Feudal Japan, ninjas would fit most of that description but were they evil? That would be debateable at best.
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DragonLord3000
Known Hero
Romanian flamethrower
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posted September 15, 2006 01:26 PM |
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Yes,they are evil....maybe only by hart.
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hot peppers are an ilusion.they do not exist.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 15, 2006 01:52 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
On some point following the orders of your leader is being neutral but in this case it is out of fear and no choice in the matter.They have specialization in assasinations and poisons,enjoy slavery(controversial) and act for their own gain eradicating those that stand in their way.Sounds kinda evil in my opinion.
maybe maybe not.
What if Raelag decided to renew an alliance with the Harmony?
There are ways that the leader can be considered good (as Raelag probably was) and ways that they could be evil. So I think it is completely dependant on the leader thus making the inhabitants of the dungeon neutral in my opinion.
Following a good leader doesn't make you good.Check the following:
'Description From the Official Site)
The Dark Elves are renegades from the Sylvan factions who long ago made a pact with the mysterious Faceless. As a result, the whole nation embraced the darkness and chose to live in the underground world of Ashan, building their cities in the huge caves there.
The Dark Elves worship the Dragon of Darkness, and because their deeds in her name are their worship, the Dungeon society is built around secrecy, plots, betrayal, and occultism. Each town is ruled by a clan with a High Priestess at its head. Women are almighty in the Dungeon society, for they lead the religious, political, and military powers. They do not raise their children themselves, but send them to the temple instead, where they will learn all the arts a young Dark Elf must know to survive.
In peace time, the Dark Elves use their very particular skills against other Dark Elf cities, to strengthen their own clans. But in war time, all these skills dedicated to murder and plots are turned on the common enemy. On the battlefield, Dungeon troops are renowned for their superior agility and power, even amongst their basic units. Fortunately for their enemies, this superiority is scarce and comes at a higher cost, for the Dark Elves are few in numbers and each loss is a severe blow to their military might.'
They sound like passionless killers to me.And that fits neither neutral nor good.Such a society cannot change though it may follow a different path for a while.
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted September 21, 2006 11:48 AM |
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if we take a look at the history of necromancy from H5 point of view, necromancy is NOT evil. It was Sar-Shazzar's disciple, Belketh, who discovered necromancy, and brought it into a disciple in the Seven cities. But the other wizards grew jealous of their increasing power that led them to banish the necromancers.
Campaign aside, from the background of the necromancers, they did nothing to be called evil, unless you regard experimenting with necromancy is blatant evil.
Instead, the wizards of the academy created orcs and beast-men (harpies, minotaurs and centaurs etc.) from human slaves and criminals, to become slaves of their own.
Now, who is evil?
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diablo-jr
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 21, 2006 02:20 PM |
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Well this is one of the most heated threads so far.Everyone debaiting the timless question of what make evil truly evil and what makes good truly good.well myself I find the necro's as being nutraul in nature only b/c they started out as open minded mages or wizards that wanted to explore all fasets of magic and even in death were not willing to give up there study of all things magic.By doing so became undead just to keep up there studies,now if you were an undead roiting corpse your self do you think that any living person would want to be your helper (NO) so you would find a way to make a servant that is mindless and will do what ever you tell him no questions asked.If you want to debait the war of good and evil then look at both side of the fence.how struck first good or evil? in the story line of heroes it has always been either the dungeon faction or the demon faction starting some war.and the necro's stayed in the back ground sucking up the spiols of war.and if people hand stayed out of they way and left them alone they might not have gotten into the fight.In heroes 5 the necro have been almost wiped out by the wizards and why b/c we don't like anything we don't understand.so the necro's come back to reclaim what was theres in the first place and you call them evil yet it was the good that turned on the first.so I feel that if the good factions just left them alone they might have stayed nuteral or they might have turned evil but right now there only taking back what was theres in the first place.
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WilX
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 21, 2006 10:09 PM |
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I agree, the Necromancer where just Wizards that where hanging out trying new stuff. They started to gain power and political sway so the conservative wizards declared them evil and started killing. I don't necesarrily consider Necros evil, granted they are dark and cool. But they are animating skelitons and corpses (zombies) much like how the wizards animate stones (golems, gargoyles) heck, wizards even sacrafice parts of themselves to make titans, who are btw are a blow to the face of the dragon of light, who haven worships. Now I'm also sure there are both corrupt wizards are both the necro and academy sides.
I'd also like to point out that the only true evil faction is inferno. All the other factions worship either the dragon of light or one of her children, all order aligned. (Well academy worships none but they seem to me to have routes with the air dragon and I'd assume so would necro then) Even the dragon of darkness who suffers from a severe split personality, isn't chaotic just different but the closest to it.
Demons on the other hand worship Urgash, the dragon of chaos. They are inherretly evil. It say in the MOC somewhere "Urgash created 5 demons in the a twisted likeness of his sister's children (current gods)" Now possibly in further expansions we'll got more factions that follow these demon gods. Orcs are already half demons why wouldn't they worship a demon god? But as for right now I'm cosidering all factions accept inferno inherretly good, at worst neutral. And all the battling thus far is fighting amongst different angles of the order concept.
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted September 22, 2006 06:59 AM |
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From the background history of the wizards, I'd find that wizards are more evil, by today's standards. But as noted earlier, heroes is set during the medieval ages, where slavery is legal, so creating orcs and beast-men out of criminals and slaves may well be legitimate as opposed to necromancy. Otherwise, I'd think that necromancers are victims of political struggles who seeks to retrieve what they owned and are not inherently evil.
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Arbaces
Tavern Dweller
Marcus Arbaces Alexandros I
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posted September 24, 2006 07:11 PM |
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Mostly I played Necromancers on H4 where I really liked their roster. I don't think they are more warlike then other races such as the Barbarians. They are something which opposes to the Tower/Wizards I belive. They are rather sly. I don't understand them as the bad-guys either. Rather cursed.
Arbaces.
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A youth who does not feed on war soon becomes fat and detestable.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 24, 2006 08:04 PM |
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Mostly I played Necromancers on H4 where I really liked their roster. I don't think they are more warlike then other races such as the Barbarians. They are something which opposes to the Tower/Wizards I belive. They are rather sly. I don't understand them as the bad-guys either. Rather cursed.
Arbaces.
Cursed?It's something they aimed for willingly.The general idea is that they are evil though there are exceptions to that rule.They first appeared in H2 where things were simpler and Jon Van Caneghem saw no reason to expain and just used them as evil.As allies of Archbald they were naturally the bad guys.In H3 this is confirmed as Gem describes their slaughtering of neutral villages and has nightmares of what they did to Enroth.Though most necromancers in H3 were inherently evil there were signs of neutrality too.In the 1st necro campaign we learn the were exiled by king Gryphonheart and so yearn for revenge.Maybe they weren't always like that.Also a death knight didn't want to invade Erathia and had no grudge against them.Naturally he was cut down In H4 Gauldoth was obviously not evil,he just had a dark personality.He respected the living,held back the undead and only wanted to survive-not conquer others even when he had the chance.Other necro officers didn't seem as neutral.In H5 the wizards started the hatred but I know one thing:There is no way I'd allow something like that in my city.Even if they were neutral initially the risk of corruption would be too great and I could not easily trust them.Of course the wizards saw it as another power rising and tried to eliminate it.After that they seem evil and revenge driven.The only candidate I can sympathise with is Raven:She moved to a new land to resume her studies and was still hunted by the wizards.When she learned of this she went off conquering nearby islands to gain power but it was a matter of survival.Heck everyone could have been in her place just due to the practice of necromancy.
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diablo-jr
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 26, 2006 03:33 PM |
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so there you go I have to agree with you that they do what it takes to survive and the wizards won't let them just live in peace. so if you were the necro's would you not want to destroy the one army that won't stop hunnting you.I would have to defend my self to the fullest and do what ever it takes to get that done.personally I think in hereos 5 the dungeon and necr's are suppose to be nutraul and not evil just there caught up in every body elses war.started by the inferno army.so if you were watching a war starting and the inferno army is at the lead would you not want to be more than ready to defend your self.and how can you do that if your constantly being hunted by the wizards.just thought I would through this out there.You can't have good with out evil and you can't have evil without good so you need to have both.
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good hunting
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