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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted August 20, 2006 06:55 PM |
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Week 5 he should have at least 3-4 shadow dragons, upgraded level 1,2,3,4 (hydras and witches are hard to pack in, Dragons almoust impossible w/o sacrificing too much: buy some arti instead, it's much better) and a Mage Guild 4-5. He obviously lost way to much units in the process, or didn't build accordingly.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 20, 2006 10:32 PM |
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he had the lvl 4-5 mage guild , since he hit me with meteor shower .
But his troops were really low , dont know why. Anyway I took his stack of 13 hydras in one shot with the marksmen , one shot out of range! Same for the 59 blood furies.
and when i checked the dmg before shooting it said 8-13 , out of the hydras ... but since i had 3-9 dmg ... it could have been 8-24 . You realize how powerfull those marksmen were... even after the shower.
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Izzachar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 20, 2006 10:54 PM |
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Towerlord just spanked me in our haven vs inferno game. I played extremely bad though. the only thing I had luck with was spells in mage guild and the fact that I got dark magic but playing so bad it didnt help.
Rematch sometime I hope.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 21, 2006 12:13 AM |
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Yes ... We finally played... and he trully played bad. I was a bit unlucky and Light Magic wasnt offered to me in the initial stages of the game. I was so sad , that it wasnt coming ... I almost completed all my skills(attack,defense,logistics) , checked out my guild and saw plenty of dark spells so I decided to take Dark Magic in a desperate move to have mass spells  . In the End I had Mass Slow, Mass Weakness and Mass Suffering... the last skill I took was light magic... but I was already very lvl 17 when I did that. I got to lvl 19 so I got expert Light Magic, and all I wanted from my lvl 20 was master of blessing, for cleansing. Unfortunately it didnt come! Anywsay the difference of troops and stats was so big, that it didnt matter anyway , but Mass Confusion really hurt my 431 Marksmen and 178 Archers(Yeah I kept some of these so I can use a mass attack).
The paladins were mainly used for dispelling , and the hero after a initial Mass Slow , had to cast Cleansing over and over on the confused marksmen  . Also the inquisitors were of help .
And of course we'll have a rematch Izzachar, weekdays I dunno for sure, but in the weekends i'll be available!
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted August 21, 2006 08:20 AM |
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Quote:
he had the lvl 4-5 mage guild , since he hit me with meteor shower .
But his troops were really low , dont know why. Anyway I took his stack of 13 hydras in one shot with the marksmen , one shot out of range! Same for the 59 blood furies.
and when i checked the dmg before shooting it said 8-13 , out of the hydras ... but since i had 3-9 dmg ... it could have been 8-24 . You realize how powerfull those marksmen were... even after the shower.
Actualy, it's not them being powerful, it's them being way overpowered. Training Marksmen price should be doubled. That should place them in terms with training footmen, and I am certain that eventhough footman is a tougher unit that people will still think (even now when the price for Archer training is doubled) what to train.
Right now noone in his sane mind isn't even trying to build angels, because they aren't the best of really, Archangels are more than not out of reach, and Training gives always great results. Especialy against Dungeon, I would always go for Training + Tactics as a neccessary skill against Dragons.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 21, 2006 12:12 PM |
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Quote:
Right now noone in his sane mind isn't even trying to build angels, because they aren't the best of really, Archangels are more than not out of reach, and Training gives always great results. Especialy against Dungeon, I would always go for Training + Tactics as a neccessary skill against Dragons.
You are mistaken.Of course the angels are useful it's only in normal maps that one can do without them-mastly for the money and being able to upgrade a few creatures and train others fast.The fact that 'they are not the best' has nothing to do with it because it could be said for a couple other tier 7 creatures.And I sincerely hope the guys who present them as crappy don't really mean it.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted August 21, 2006 12:59 PM |
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I disagree. Unless you are absouletly certain of getting the upgrade, it's not worthwile to go for the angels. A couple of days before I played a hot seat game, me dungeon vs. haven, no looking ofcourse. In one moment of the battle I got my blacks beside the marksmen. Do you know how much damage was floating above my dragons prior to the hit of the marksmen (750 of them)? If I recall correctly, 5-13. 5-13 Dragons. WITH the melee penalty. Imagine they were blessed. And got luck. 26 Dragons? Give me a break.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 21, 2006 01:10 PM |
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Rainalcar is right. Unless you are absolutely certain that you will have the upgrade too , it is just not worthed ! Even with the upgrade it is a questionable decision!
For the 50 k gold used only for the buildings you can train plenty of marksmen. To get a compensation for all that money you need to buy archangels of at least 100k (around 20 ) . That means 10 weeks!!!
I dont think I will ever play a game that last more than 8 weeks in multiplayer...So my advice is : angels, dont ever bother thinking about them !
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted August 21, 2006 01:18 PM |
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My advice is, Nival, double the Training cost of Marksmen! (at least) People, aen't you bored of playing Deleb+ballista, Vladimir+animate, Dougal+training=zounds of marksmen combinations? Nival, kill that.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted August 21, 2006 01:29 PM |
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This is to show how potent the marksmen can be. Do you know how much damage Expert blessed marksmen will do to the opponent within the range of the precise shot? Each marksmen will do 8 points of base damage - they have 4 to attack, and it is quite realistic that the Haven hero will have 8 more - say that the total attack of the marksmen is 12.
Say the heroes do not possess ranged damage modifiers. Each marksman will do 12,80 in average.
Now, say you have 350 marksmen - that is a piece of cake to get. Those marksmen will do 4480 damage. That is 18 Black Dragons. End of story.
Wait till I buy the game, we can try multi 
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 21, 2006 01:29 PM |
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I don't know if that is such a good solution... I think the only thing Nival needs to do, is the map editor ! After we play "some good maps" , we can trully say costs of Trainning must be bigger than they currently are, or they are just fine the way they are.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted August 21, 2006 01:37 PM |
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But the point is that you always get more for your money by buying marksmen then angels. The only thing you ever have to worry about is Dark Magic, so Dungeon, Sylvan, Academy mostly, are not a threat most of the time. Especialy with squire combo which is simply tremendous.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 21, 2006 01:57 PM |
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Rainalcar, I know what you are saying... I started this thread long ago! After playing more and more with haven, I got better and better at playing with it. There were many people that said Haven is not that great, in this forum ... but I can hardly see them lately around here.
The truth is Haven has problems with :
- Inferno , because this one has few shooters, and many meleers. So the Squire/Marksmen is not so efficient as against other towns. And also Dark Magic, which can be really deadly if you don't get Mass Cleansing.
- Dungeon with Implosion and Meteor shower ... if they attack early enough
The truth is that there are two major schools of magic : Light and Dark, and two minor ones ... Destructive and Summoning , that can be used with succes only by few towns(Destructive - Dungeon , Summoning - Vlady ).
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 21, 2006 01:58 PM |
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I don't know if training cost is fine as it is but the marksmen's damage could be reduced.2-8 is too much it seems with easy access to bless,defence skill with vitality,attack with archery and the ranged protection of squires.Hard to kill them fast and yet they do outrageously good damage.Maybe it the precise shot which makes them so good but removing it would be a bit too drastic-death threats would be imminent
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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hellwitch
Known Hero
Skeleton Ruler
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posted August 21, 2006 05:09 PM |
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People Haven is might race and you must beat them with magic(frenze and master of purpet are good for this) or with good strategy traveling the map. Try to keep the haven enemy out of the gold resources like utopias and so on and i think can be beat i.e. the race is not overpowered
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 21, 2006 05:20 PM |
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Quote:
True,a creature's usefulness cannot be determined by fighting a similar like-leveled creature(having adjusted growth multipliers too).What is most important is the role the creature plays in a battlefield and how good it is at it.Squires are primarily defenders(at least for the first couple of rounds),then tanks with a stunning ability so they usually complement other creatures mainly ranged attackers instead of doing the dirty work themselves.Hunters on the other hand are mostly a standalone creature which is active all the time and is a damage dealer.They cannot be compared but the hunter's role is more essential.
And haven isn't really superior.Only the paladin and imp griffin really stand out and while its creatures compliment each other they are still facing factions with tricky abilities and bigger potential.Haven can't really prevent a teleport assault in its thick formations(hydras or pit lords come to mind),can't counter mark of the damned,can't amass fast archers as a necro his skeleton counterparts,its triple ballista can't counter Sylvan's imbued triple ballista.Also its great defence can be bypassed by hellfire,spells(pit lords again or mark of the wizard/warlock's luck combined with sorcery,master of fire hurts too),flaming arrows etc.I could credit them for being more balanced but not really overpowered.
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I don't know if training cost is fine as it is but the marksmen's damage could be reduced.2-8 is too much it seems with easy access to bless,defence skill with vitality,attack with archery and the ranged protection of squires.Hard to kill them fast and yet they do outrageously good damage.Maybe it the precise shot which makes them so good but removing it would be a bit too drastic-death threats would be imminent
Look at your change of mind... It is amazing. Now you want the marksmen to be smurfed . Back then you didn't even reckon them as a unit that stands out ...
If DoomForge comes with a similar post soon, then it means Haven is trully superior and it needs to be adjusted !
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 21, 2006 06:53 PM |
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Hehe true I guess Back then I hadn't experienced their power with just these few games with haven,especially when led by Dougal.There is no point in denying I was wrong.As for Doomforge who knows...You guys seem to think in an entirely different way!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 21, 2006 07:08 PM |
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There was also something else.Having not played many games I was still affected by the previous heroes' thinking that last tier dwelling should always be built if only to accumulate the creatures for later use.That said I didn't think training grounds would come into play for some time or that training ALL the peasants was possible.And that's why I underestimated them.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 21, 2006 08:01 PM |
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my thinking became different already: I started as haven lover, than played dungeon and necropolis a lot, to end as inferno fan - and a haven antifan. xD
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 21, 2006 08:32 PM |
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Quote:
my thinking became different already: I started as haven lover, than played dungeon and necropolis a lot, to end as inferno fan - and a haven antifan. xD
And the reason is?
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