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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 22, 2006 09:52 AM |
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The reason is, I hate playing overpowered cheap factions with 1 strategy to own them all. 
I don't like weaklings too, but winning with cheap abuse isn't very satisfying. at least they nerfed klaus a bit.. but it's still not enough. A major nerf to marksmen is needed. You can stop them, yes, but you have to re-think your strategy just to counter a bunch of stupid crossbow dudes. Similiar to masses of skellie archers. One units shouldn't be gamebreaking, really..
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 22, 2006 10:17 AM |
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Quote:
The reason is, I hate playing overpowered cheap factions with 1 strategy to own them all.
I don't like weaklings too, but winning with cheap abuse isn't very satisfying. at least they nerfed klaus a bit.. but it's still not enough. A major nerf to marksmen is needed. You can stop them, yes, but you have to re-think your strategy just to counter a bunch of stupid crossbow dudes. Similiar to masses of skellie archers. One units shouldn't be gamebreaking, really..
DoomForge this is your most pathetic post ever! I am sorry to say it, but that's how it is... From the beggining I've been pointing out , the power of Marksmen + Squires and Dougal, and you always said , they can be owned easily, by different strategies, with different towns.
And now you come whining about haven being overpowered faction, and claiming that you dont like strategies that own all ??? It seems to me you easily forget your Deleb strategy, which on small maps can only be called overpowered.
I think this makes you a bit hypocrite!
As i said, when a post like this comes from you, it is clear that things need to be adjustedm but still, we should see, how things really are when the map editor cames out!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 22, 2006 12:38 PM |
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no, no, it's not marksmen only, its the whole haven faction that seems cheesy. And boring.
Maybe i've expressed my feelings wrong in my last post. I don't really think they are unbeatable. I only think that it's too easy to gain too much power with haven, and that makes them boring.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 22, 2006 01:21 PM |
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Quote:
no, no, it's not marksmen only, its the whole haven faction that seems cheesy. And boring.
Maybe i've expressed my feelings wrong in my last post. I don't really think they are unbeatable. I only think that it's too easy to gain too much power with haven, and that makes them boring.
DoomForge you can't afford to talk about "cheesy and boring", because you use Deleb... If you want to talk about "cheesy and boring", you must be fair to every town and hero. And that includes Inferno with Deleb. I think it's much more "cheesy and boring" to defeat a pack o pit fiends with 20-30 demons losing nothing, just because you have chosen him as main.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 22, 2006 01:33 PM |
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Seemed pretty clear to me.Yes there are counters but that takes specialization and does not allow much creativity when against haven.It's a matter of taste-some like it others not.Unfortunately in H5 some spells and abilities are an absolute have.Lack of some of them can be equivalent to game over
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 22, 2006 03:52 PM |
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Quote:
DoomForge you can't afford to talk about "cheesy and boring", because you use Deleb... If you want to talk about "cheesy and boring", you must be fair to every town and hero. And that includes Inferno with Deleb. I think it's much more "cheesy and boring" to defeat a pack o pit fiends with 20-30 demons losing nothing, just because you have chosen him as main.
I understand what you mean, but keep in mind that deleb gives you absolutely nothing to cheese around with vs. enemy hero - except higher level, of course, because ballista will get destroyed in 1 hit by any group of shooters after like 2 weeks or so. There is a difference between using a hero to creep fast and winning each game with the same hero/strategy, my friend And the epitome of boredom, red chaining rushes? yuck.
Similiar to warcraft3. You can own each rase by doing the cookie-cutter strategy each time (until the community discovers a good counter - however, it took several years discover i.e. a perfect riflecaster counter, or mass talons vs orc), but I dislike it, trying to fool around with different strategies. However, I do use similiar starting hero as everyone to creep, because geting other hero than i.e. the archmage slows your creeping so terribly that you're practically washed away later on. No difference here and there - as Elvin said, there are things you _MUST_ do in order to survive. Unfortunately.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 22, 2006 04:12 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
DoomForge you can't afford to talk about "cheesy and boring", because you use Deleb... If you want to talk about "cheesy and boring", you must be fair to every town and hero. And that includes Inferno with Deleb. I think it's much more "cheesy and boring" to defeat a pack o pit fiends with 20-30 demons losing nothing, just because you have chosen him as main.
I understand what you mean, but keep in mind that deleb gives you absolutely nothing to cheese around with vs. enemy hero - except higher level, of course, because ballista will get destroyed in 1 hit by any group of shooters after like 2 weeks or so. There is a difference between using a hero to creep fast and winning each game with the same hero/strategy, my friend And the epitome of boredom, red chaining rushes? yuck.
Similiar to warcraft3. You can own each rase by doing the cookie-cutter strategy each time (until the community discovers a good counter - however, it took several years discover i.e. a perfect riflecaster counter, or mass talons vs orc), but I dislike it, trying to fool around with different strategies. However, I do use similiar starting hero as everyone to creep, because geting other hero than i.e. the archmage slows your creeping so terribly that you're practically washed away later on. No difference here and there - as Elvin said, there are things you _MUST_ do in order to survive. Unfortunately.
Getting some important artifacts sooner than the usual is important. And Deleb can do that. He can also rush, and win the battle with the ballista by itself, so I think it is pretty cheesy!
I discovered the power of Haven myself, a long time ago, shared it with everyone on the forum, and many said I was wrong. And I don't use the same strategy against all towns, it is different for each one of them, and it is also different from one game to another! And after trying it more and more, I also don't think it is overpowered, just that the guys I play against don't know what they have to do to counter it! I will probably start exploring another town soon... I liked exploring this one because of the ranged orientation and I think there are still many more things to find out about it  , since I keep improving my strategy in every game.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 22, 2006 04:31 PM |
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Quote:
I discovered the power of Haven myself, a long time ago, shared it with everyone on the forum, and many said I was wrong. And I don't use the same strategy against all towns, it is different for each one of them, and it is also different from one game to another! And after trying it more and more, I also don't think it is overpowered, just that the guys I play against don't know what they have to do to counter it! I will probably start exploring another town soon... I liked exploring this one because of the ranged orientation and I think there are still many more things to find out about it , since I keep improving my strategy in every game.
And thus the Great prophet Towerlord acquired the secrets of creation binding the elements of the universe to his will and finding the path to ultimate power.Nobody believed him yet he persevered and now that he has triumphed he will spare our pathetic lives simply knowing we are inferior!
Sorry but I couldn't help it!Sometimes you DO sound like that Still I think you are right for the most part even though you tend to exaggerate.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 22, 2006 04:40 PM |
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sorry if I sounded like that ...but it is strange to hear someone complaining about others using a town and hero over and over again, when he does the same thing with another town! It just doesn't seem fair 
Anyway very creative and funny, your post is 
Ps : And also I couldn't help it... I just wanted so much to say I told you so
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 22, 2006 04:51 PM |
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Quote:
But it is strange to hear someone complaining about others using a town and hero over and over again, when he does the same thing with another town! It just doesn't seem fair
You should know how I feel about that.
Quote:
Anyway very creative and funny, your post is
Yeah I deserve a QP for that!
Quote:
Ps : And also I couldn't help it... I just wanted so much to say I told you so
Sigh...
____________
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Izzachar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 22, 2006 06:12 PM |
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Edited by Izzachar at 19:29, 22 Aug 2006.
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I think Deleb, Dougal and vladimir belongs to a league of their own in some maps. I would never play with any of them again in a map that benefits them, its simply not fun.
I won so many games with Deleb and with necro I never even lost. For me that aint funny I always for some reason try to explore the faction ppl dont like and think is underpowered, and heroes noone seemd to have used before. Im pretty certain Ill try to discover academy after my inferno period. Now its not the only reason for me playing inferno I liked them the most in campaign aswell. I now know that inferno isnt underpowered its main threats are haven and necro and most players seem to play these factions so I think its a reason for ppl experiencing inferno as underpowered. If you dont know how to play the early game they are also very hard to creep with. Today I killed a horde of marksmen loosing not a single unit only using 5 succubi mistresses and 40 demons, this was second week. I also killed lots of hunters half of them master hunters only loosing a couple of demons. Now IMO this is something not easely achieved with most factions. Im pretty certain I couldnt win vs you towerlord using Deleb except if I rushed. Thats using my heros strength and you do the same thing with dougal; Waiting a couple of weeks and playing subterranean treasures wich gives you even more archers and gold and a safe start so to say, noone could rush you.
I am however convinced that you are a better player then me cause I snow upp so often because of boredom (last game I lost my main because I didnt retreat in time with my neutral clearing army) and you seem to play very smart Our game we played I dont think I would have won even if I played very very good because your army and progress was amazing that game. Im just saying that I think there are unbalances in the game mostly regarding three heroes (that ppl discovered so far) and maps suiting their advantages. Try to beat me on land of the outcasts with dougal Im using Deleb Im red you are blue. See what I mean? I think subterreanean (gah how to you spell that??) treasures offers the same advantage to Dougal as land of the outcasts offers deleb its just more long term advantages and you cant win the game week 1.
I dont know how many more maps then subterreanan treasures you played on UBI but on ToH I see you only played that map. Im aware that you are using the best hero for this map and its a good strategy but again try and understand the similarity of using Deleb on land of outcasts.
Same thing goes for necro maybe there are just to many large neutral stacks of lv 1-2 creatures in some maps making them practically unstoppable. If the only lv 1-2 creatures in the map would be around wood ore mines and some chests etc necro sure would have a harder time.
Also grim raider specialist rush on peninsula is lame, Upgraded raider + lots of stack of bloodmaiden. I experienced that once, got raped second week I think it was.
I for one wait with great anticipation for map editor so that finally some balanced maps can be created
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Unixmage
Known Hero
Demon Slayer
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posted August 23, 2006 12:12 AM |
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I was dungeon and my friend was haven. All was quiet as we silently harvested the gold and exp. By chance (I think) his knight came riding through the fog and stopped about 4 steps away from my hero. I noticed he had a huge army with masses of marksmen and paladins which was much larger than mine which had been reduced a great deal due to overaggressive creeping. I reasoned that with the protection of my town's wall I would be able to fling all the spells non stop and hopefully bring him down. I didn't have logistics and my hero stopped right at the gates. I thought that was it as his hero closed in and started battle. The one useful artifact I had gave +50% earth damage. Battle started. He cast mass haste and laid waste to my assassins with marksmen, the griffins charged right into my matriarchs and then it was my hero's turn. I cast empowered meteor strike and by pure luck quite a few elemental chains went off too. I was astonished by the sheer number of casualties this caused (Would have been worse if his army was clumped up). My few hydras held off against the griffins and one more cast sealed his doom. I had won but only because I was lucky. Haven seem to creep much better no matter what. Now I'm thinking how he could have countered me.
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zzplayer
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 23, 2006 05:32 AM |
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I play more than 20 times multiplayer (normal and big size)only with 'quick battle' option ON because the battles are too long.
Still there are 'player vs player' battles.
Anyway, Haven's best unit for me is Marksmen of course. With only these units, it's possible to kill neutral creatures without loss very early then get all ressources & gold.
All games I played finished before any player could develop lv 4-7 creatures in decent number.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 23, 2006 08:58 AM |
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Quote:
I think Deleb, Dougal and vladimir belongs to a league of their own in some maps. I would never play with any of them again in a map that benefits them, its simply not fun.
I won so many games with Deleb and with necro I never even lost. For me that aint funny I always for some reason try to explore the faction ppl dont like and think is underpowered, and heroes noone seemd to have used before. Im pretty certain Ill try to discover academy after my inferno period. Now its not the only reason for me playing inferno I liked them the most in campaign aswell. I now know that inferno isnt underpowered its main threats are haven and necro and most players seem to play these factions so I think its a reason for ppl experiencing inferno as underpowered. If you dont know how to play the early game they are also very hard to creep with. Today I killed a horde of marksmen loosing not a single unit only using 5 succubi mistresses and 40 demons, this was second week. I also killed lots of hunters half of them master hunters only loosing a couple of demons. Now IMO this is something not easely achieved with most factions. Im pretty certain I couldnt win vs you towerlord using Deleb except if I rushed. Thats using my heros strength and you do the same thing with dougal; Waiting a couple of weeks and playing subterranean treasures wich gives you even more archers and gold and a safe start so to say, noone could rush you.
I am however convinced that you are a better player then me cause I snow upp so often because of boredom (last game I lost my main because I didnt retreat in time with my neutral clearing army) and you seem to play very smart Our game we played I dont think I would have won even if I played very very good because your army and progress was amazing that game. Im just saying that I think there are unbalances in the game mostly regarding three heroes (that ppl discovered so far) and maps suiting their advantages. Try to beat me on land of the outcasts with dougal Im using Deleb Im red you are blue. See what I mean? I think subterreanean (gah how to you spell that??) treasures offers the same advantage to Dougal as land of the outcasts offers deleb its just more long term advantages and you cant win the game week 1.
I dont know how many more maps then subterreanan treasures you played on UBI but on ToH I see you only played that map. Im aware that you are using the best hero for this map and its a good strategy but again try and understand the similarity of using Deleb on land of outcasts.
Same thing goes for necro maybe there are just to many large neutral stacks of lv 1-2 creatures in some maps making them practically unstoppable. If the only lv 1-2 creatures in the map would be around wood ore mines and some chests etc necro sure would have a harder time.
Also grim raider specialist rush on peninsula is lame, Upgraded raider + lots of stack of bloodmaiden. I experienced that once, got raped second week I think it was.
I for one wait with great anticipation for map editor so that finally some balanced maps can be created
Well Izzachar, as I told you, that game everything went perfect for me, it was my personal best, I think . I don't always play that good . I understand the similarity, with using Deleb on Land of the Outcasts. There is a very big difference though : Land of the Outcasts is a banned map, and for good reason .
Except for my games for TOH , I don't have time to play other games on Ubi. So I choose to play for TOH, cause at least I know I'll have a good opponent . I tried to play a non-TOH guy , and aftert a week or so, his stats still were like in the beggining, he was ending his turn very fast, and he was bugging me to play faster.
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Izzachar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 23, 2006 09:46 AM |
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Edited by Izzachar at 09:58, 23 Aug 2006.
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Then I think you should try other maps
And yes land of the outcasts is banned for good reasons also. I just wanted to make a distinctive comparison. Not that dougal and that map is near as unbalanced as Deleb would be in land of outcasts. But Im glad you understood what I meant.
Mystic vale with one beeing green and the other red is the map I find the most fun atm.
It gives both of the players a chance getting a second town but not from your own faction. Each player have same distance to both the other towns, wich make it an intense map. early contanct yet it can be a long game. Also the map is pretty rich, lots of mines and even gold mines.
Try it out. You have been winning all your games so far?, could need to try something out that maybe doesnt put you faction and hero choice at such a good advantage.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 23, 2006 10:22 AM |
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I tried in single, Peninsula, Land of the Outcasts, Last Hope but got bored very fast ...Last night I tried Mystic Vale a little, and it seems interesting indeed ... but I only played 2 or 3 days . I'll try it out even more , when I get the time since it has your vote of confidence 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 23, 2006 03:12 PM |
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It seems Nival plan to make some balance changes on gating,necromancy AND training:http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3540
I am not sure about gating,maybe it should(?) get a little boost but necromancy and training could do with some nerfing.Hopefully they won't be severely affected but who knows what to expect from Nival?Some further changes as buffing up other tiers in necropolis(a touch more) would be welcome in any case.And maybe haven will turn to preferring angels over (many more)marksmen again.Humans...
____________
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 23, 2006 03:48 PM |
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those three racials skills are very strong and should be nerfed anyway. Elvin, you say gating should be buffed? I don't think so It's not as spectacular in effects as training, but still very powerful.
However, it's known that their "balance changes" are just totally crippling the strategy/spell/unit, so I'm afraid that it will be no longer useful in 1.3.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 23, 2006 04:15 PM |
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And easy to use.But inferno needs it in earlygame and things would be nasty if its effectiveness was reduced as well.Leadership does not come as often!Then again I don't know how powerful it can be with a specialised hero.
____________
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 23, 2006 04:35 PM |
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Training is not overpowered, and I never get the skill above the Basic level. Training Marksmen might be... but for others it surely isn't.
Anyway the main hero should return to town very very rarely, so it is a mistake to get training, more than basic.
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