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Drake-Hound
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 23, 2006 06:22 PM |
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Honestly this game is about Heroes and Magic , Haven has one of the biggest disadvangetage .
Heroes they all stink compared to Inferno , even leaving Deleb out of the equations .
Haven has one problem early on no way to win tough resource needed battles with minimal casualties .
Using Grok for example.
Teleport a stack of horned devils or sacrificial Familiar or Imps .
Those precious archers/marksman are tied up for a while for gate troops to arrive.
Nymux while slow to start ,with swift gating and a pack of cerebi will tear up those archers conscript or anything else of lower levels .
Advangetage of Haven is beter income at start , and benediction divine guidance .
But there heroes really need help they are not flexible .
Almost every race has a distinct way to counter stacked up marksman group or get teleport assualt .
Nah Haven stinks cause of the heroes , they are too limited in flexibility , especially compared to Inferno who might be lacking in range but has staying power especially with luck and defense skills.
The longer the battle goes on for Inferno the more likely they will win .
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 23, 2006 06:33 PM |
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drake_hound you should try reading the whole topic.
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Drake-Hound
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 23, 2006 06:49 PM |
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Quote:
drake_hound you should try reading the whole topic.
I did but you going to deny that Haven has the weakest Heroes of them all ??
While troops of Haven are interesting , troops without a proper hero is dead meat 
Who can advance its hero fastest while suffering the least casualties, going to win against somebody with lot lower level hero and 50% more troops.
Peasants are useless even in greater numbers cause magical and range attack will take them out fast .
Conscripts while much beter if stun kicks in , still doesn´t cancel the retaliation of the next attacker.
Squire Footman lack mobility , easy to predict where they can go .
So easy to avoid .
And will always suffer casualties when attacked.
Priest/Inquisitor while not bad at all , are generally too expensive to build
Well best troops for Haven leaves.
Marksman/Archers
Griffins/imperial Griffins.
Now compare that to other races best troops , and the difference is quite small .
Since both of those units are quite fragile compared to others best troops.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 23, 2006 07:31 PM |
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Sorry Drake-hound but you seem to have no idea of what you are talking about.Knights may not be killing machines but the army they lead is and if you have a basic understanding of heroes you will lose little or no army and lvl up just as fine.Peasants aren't first line warriors they are accumulating to be upg or trained later.With a knight's skills and abilities EVEN coscripts can be a nuance,maybe more than that.Squires are better of behind,near the archers and priests seem cheap enough for me.Only inquisitors have an expensive dwelling but they are a luxury and you won't really need them most times.Marksmen and imp. griffins fragile?Have you actually played a haven game or do you just browse the manual and jump to conclusions?Not more than most others and have precise shot/battle dive accordingly for nasty amounts of damage.And why leave out cavaliers/paladins?
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Drake-Hound
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 23, 2006 07:48 PM |
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Quote:
Sorry Drake-hound but you seem to have no idea of what you are talking about.Knights may not be killing machines but the army they lead is and if you have a basic understanding of heroes you will lose little or no army and lvl up just as fine.Peasants aren't first line warriors they are accumulating to be upg or trained later.With a knight's skills and abilities EVEN coscripts can be a nuance,maybe more than that.Squires are better of behind,near the archers and priests seem cheap enough for me.Only inquisitors have an expensive dwelling but they are a luxury and you won't really need them most times.Marksmen and imp. griffins fragile?Have you actually played a haven game or do you just browse the manual and jump to conclusions?Not more than most others and have precise shot/battle dive accordingly for nasty amounts of damage.And why leave out cavaliers/paladins?
Finished the game 
Even played all the multiplayer maps . where time is of essence against comp players or human players.
Marksman are quite fragile when a plague zombie or horned demon TP next to you .
Magic works wonders against those .
Honestly Griffins are quite fragile compared to Wights , Nightmares.
Cavaliers are quite good ,but again they are not that good if you dont get the first attack .
Paladins are quite expensive and the amount of growth monthly is small .
Angels the same reason its ridiculous to pay the amount unless you can upgrade to Archangels.
Now you get to the part of skills , with Knight Skills ..
Now compare to what other heroes can get with there skills in the time you gotten after Benediction ,Leadership for Divine Guidance.
Counterattack ...
Now what do other heroes already gotten how far are they advancing.
Especially when lets say for inferno , Hellfire (that works on all troops unlike benediction) Logistic , Warmachine .
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 23, 2006 08:10 PM |
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Quote:
Marksman are quite fragile when a plague zombie or horned demon TP next to you .
Magic works wonders against those .
Honestly Griffins are quite fragile compared to Wights , Nightmares.
Cavaliers are quite good ,but again they are not that good if you dont get the first attack .
Paladins are quite expensive and the amount of growth monthly is small .
Angels the same reason its ridiculous to pay the amount unless you can upgrade to Archangels.
Now you get to the part of skills , with Knight Skills ..
Now compare to what other heroes can get with there skills in the time you gotten after Benediction ,Leadership for Divine Guidance.
Counterattack ...
Now what do other heroes already gotten how far are they advancing.
Especially when lets say for inferno , Hellfire (that works on all troops unlike benediction) Logistic , Warmachine .
Marksmen are always surrounded by other creatures just for that,especially squires for the enemy ranged penalty.Griffins weren't meant be to equal to wights or nightmares they are just tier 4.Cavaliers have a good speed so that they can get the first strike.Paladins are expensive sure enough but after some weeks you can upg them and it is totally worth it.They are almost like tier 7 in terms of damage even after all this nerfing with a growth of tier 6(small growth?I do not understand what you were trying to say).Angels ok but you can train peasants in which case marksmen reach a new dimension of pain!Currently your strategy can revolve around them.Knights' counterstrike skills are inferior to those of other factions but you only get what you need for getting the skills/abilities you want(aura of swiftness,retribution etc).You can still get logistics and warmachines it's fairly easy for a knight.Again knights are not barred from good skills nor have lousy units,they even get powerful faster than most.If you fear magic you know what skills to take.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 23, 2006 08:27 PM |
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Elvin is right, you don't know what you are talking about... Knights are great heroes, maybe the greatest of them all... They develop mostly on attack and defense which is great, and when you get Light Magic they become almost as good as any other Magicians ! What difference is between Mass Haste casted by a Wizard , or the one casted by a knight ?! Some turns only .... anyway , the battle is not gonna last that long .
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Drake-Hound
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 23, 2006 08:38 PM |
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If you surround your Marksman unless you are talking about 500 stacks or more , but then we are talking about end or mid game where everybody has that kind of numbers.
A fireball/chill of winter causes massive damage to that surrounding stack .
You surround it very nice for mass area of effect to wipe out those squires while i have to deal with your marksman anyway.
It takes down more then 30+ each fireball or Winter of Chill depending on the stack number .
Against magic users ,almost everybody is and will have spells.
That strategy is like dooming your army from get go , even if it doesn´t your casualty will be horrifid after that battle.
IF your squires and footman defends , even beter for my assualt troop to go after the others that are in the other cornor.
It takes 3 space to defend 1 archer unit , so 3 slots.
Now almost all troops have AoE creatures later on ,early on even gating near those squires and footman , while letting the balista (even if its not deleb as long you taken warmachine skil) damage for how much against Marksman ?? against Deleb it or Soulflayer (sorry forgot the name of the undead warlock) any weak stack surrounding your marksman will be killed to turned into ghost to deny your marksman to shoot, raising dead will keep them fighting , even if its a summoned creature. (raise dead is a 2nd level spell)
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 23, 2006 09:40 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 21:42, 23 Aug 2006.
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Quote:
Training is not overpowered, and I never get the skill above the Basic level. Training Marksmen might be... but for others it surely isn't.
Anyway the main hero should return to town very very rarely, so it is a mistake to get training, more than basic.
Agreed. The cheapest creature to train is Archer/Marksmen. The highest growth of level 1 creatures is in Haven. The greatest weekly max damage output of all creatures is from Marksmen (96 without attack/defence modifiers)
Add those together and you see that everything is not allright. Quite overpowered (I hate using that word). As mentioned earlier there really is no reason to go for Angels, you get more damage from training Marksmen.
Suggestions...limit amount that can be trained each week (should depend on level of Training) OR increase cost of training Archers OR reduce Marksmen's damage...
Only one of those.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 24, 2006 01:01 AM |
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Quote:
Suggestions...limit amount that can be trained each week (should depend on level of Training) OR increase cost of training Archers OR reduce Marksmen's damage...
Only one of those.
Actually reducing the marksmen's damage would be unfair to those that don't depend on training or are playing small maps.Maybe just a little as 2-6 would be reasonable.The limit amount is a fine idea but somehow I know it won't be implemented which leaves increasing its cost.I would rather see only peasant training become more expensive(suppose the are stupid or slow learners as an excuse) because training higher units as archers to footmen,footmen to priests etc should still be a viable alternative.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 24, 2006 01:36 AM |
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Quote:
If you surround your Marksman unless you are talking about 500 stacks or more , but then we are talking about end or mid game where everybody has that kind of numbers.
A fireball/chill of winter causes massive damage to that surrounding stack .
You surround it very nice for mass area of effect to wipe out those squires while i have to deal with your marksman anyway.
It takes down more then 30+ each fireball or Winter of Chill depending on the stack number .
Against magic users ,almost everybody is and will have spells.
That strategy is like dooming your army from get go , even if it doesn´t your casualty will be horrifid after that battle.
IF your squires and footman defends , even beter for my assualt troop to go after the others that are in the other cornor.
It takes 3 space to defend 1 archer unit , so 3 slots.
Now almost all troops have AoE creatures later on ,early on even gating near those squires and footman , while letting the balista (even if its not deleb as long you taken warmachine skil) damage for how much against Marksman ?? against Deleb it or Soulflayer (sorry forgot the name of the undead warlock) any weak stack surrounding your marksman will be killed to turned into ghost to deny your marksman to shoot, raising dead will keep them fighting , even if its a summoned creature. (raise dead is a 2nd level spell)
Uh huh,keep telling yourself that.
No need to be in midgame to cover a ranged unit.Just the squires are enough against large units but if you want to be sure you can place some small stacks(like 1 peasant stacks) near them(not against a spellcaster of course) though any unit going for the marksmen would be the focus of all the knight's army.
Yeah a fireball can do the trick.You'll get some squires and marksmen while the rest who will most probably have a mass buff,-20 to 30% melee reduction,-20% ranged reduction and aura of swiftness not to mention some nice attack/defence stats will charge defeating your army in a matter of rounds.Believe me there are better targets.After all there is resistance and protection to take or possibly get an artifact.You cannot afford even one resisted spell.
Gating can block marksmen for a round or two.When they are free or simply teleported say to the other side they'll get a precice shot that can decimate most of your nightmares or anything that is near.Gating can only be a problem with medium sized armies under a hero that has swarming gate(not to depend on but can work) and/or gate master(2% chance for leadership ).Deleb is case I won't go into and Naadir...I admit ghosts can be annoying but it will take some time to kill an entire stack.And I thought summoned units disappear completely when destroyed(which is in 1 hit if incorporeality doesn't kick in).
They are far from invincible but it is unlikely you'll get them with these tricks,curses/freezing can work better.And there are more units you should keep an eye on not just marksmen.
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Demortae
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 24, 2006 05:21 AM |
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Edited by Demortae at 05:23, 24 Aug 2006.
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Quote:
Honestly this game is about Heroes and Magic , Haven has one of the biggest disadvangetage .
Heroes they all stink compared to Inferno , even leaving Deleb out of the equations .
Haven has one problem early on no way to win tough resource needed battles with minimal casualties .
You are crazy, attack and defense attributes are much more important than spellpower and knowledge. Knowledge is needed only to gain as much mana as you'll need, which, if you have certain skills, isn't much. Likewise, skills are what make most spells more powerfull, and spellpower merely increases its duration, which, if its a battle changing spell (haste, slow, etc.) will be countered asap anyway.
Quote:
Using Grok for example.
Teleport a stack of horned devils or sacrificial Familiar or Imps .
Those precious archers/marksman are tied up for a while for gate troops to arrive.
Marksmen are one of the slowest Haven units, which means that even if you teleport a stack beside them, the rest of the Haven army will decimate it before the marksmen's turn comes 'round. That is of course IF there is an open spot near them. Gating in more troops loses you your first move (which is often critical). Often that price there makes it not worth doing.
Quote:
Nymux while slow to start ,with swift gating and a pack of cerebi will tear up those archers conscript or anything else of lower levels .
Cerebi are great, I'll grant you, but they won't be able to reach the marksmen, and stopping just shy of them, those archers will destroy them. Conscripts? Maybe a few that the knight couldn't afford to train, but its usually either peasants for the little income boost, or marksmen.
Quote:
Advangetage of Haven is beter income at start , and benediction divine guidance .
But there heroes really need help they are not flexible .
Almost every race has a distinct way to counter stacked up marksman group or get teleport assualt .
Here, your just plain wrong, Haven isn't flexible in your opinion, just because most people choose to play them in a certain way, which is hugely successful. Yes, the marksmen thing can be countered...just, not with great odds.
Quote:
Nah Haven stinks cause of the heroes , they are too limited in flexibility , especially compared to Inferno who might be lacking in range but has staying power especially with luck and defense skills.
The longer the battle goes on for Inferno the more likely they will win .
This is foolish, basing your opinion of them on skills that anyone can get. Inferno doesn't have the staying power of Haven, it doesn't have the offense of Haven, what it does have, is the advantage in hero casting, only because of its tier 1 unit. That too can be countered, by high mana. Its not even a sure thing that they can't be slaughtered before their mana drain (there is a randomness to the starting ATB). Hell, without Deleb, they can barely get their feet off the ground to compete.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 24, 2006 09:49 AM |
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Quote:
This is foolish, basing your opinion of them on skills that anyone can get. Inferno doesn't have the staying power of Haven, it doesn't have the offense of Haven, what it does have, is the advantage in hero casting, only because of its tier 1 unit. That too can be countered, by high mana. Its not even a sure thing that they can't be slaughtered before their mana drain (there is a randomness to the starting ATB). Hell, without Deleb, they can barely get their feet off the ground to compete.
Well, actually their offense is better than any other castle (explained that a few posts before), but their defense is not, so demonolords can't compete with knights by pure physical might.
Familiars are small, so they perfectly fit second line, making them pretty much unaccesable to any unit in first round except marksmen, which are very slow.
Without Deleb, but with skill, inferno can creep as good as any other castle. Don't underestimate the power of hell. 
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Izzachar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 24, 2006 10:16 AM |
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Drakehound you need to play a game vs someone that understands Haven.
Yesterday I played a game dungeon vs haven. I dont think any of us were very experienced with those factions. We choose random on start. He got dougal and starting massing marksmen. When big battle came I was 2 lv higher then him with expert enlightment. I even had more defence then him  alot of SP and ok attack. I had that lightning artifact trident of whats it called. And I had chain lightning.
I lost. His archers killed 6 hydras in one shot and I had a totaal of 20. Now count in cavaliers and everything else. I got whooped pretty fast. I got of as many chain lightnings as possible and managed to decimate his force by alot. I has warlocks luck and 4 in luck I got 1/4 luck rolls :/ I retreated picked upp army next day (day1) and attacked his castle within some days. Still getting one more chance I couldnt take down his archers I got two luck rolls with 5 in luck but really I needed three to win that battle. My chain lightning did 600 dmg. 1200 with luck. And this was sometime early moth 2. And I couldnt kill those archers. To make a comparison here. I killed all off his cavaliers on one luck chain lightning. But the marksmen requierd 4 normal and two with luck and he still had 60 of them left.
Now Im not whining about it. Im an unexperienced dungeon player so I counted on loosing and I didnt have sorcery What I mean is you cannot trust spells to decimate those marksmen numbers.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 24, 2006 10:48 AM |
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you could have tried some hit and run, with 7 small stacks of blood furies, chain and then leave ... I think that is hard for haven to counter.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 24, 2006 10:54 AM |
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Not enough furies in the castle to do it correctly..
On second thought.. 1 fury to get killed by marksmen, 1 by hero (or two if he has aoe spell), 1 to die due to inquisitors.. or two, depending on numbers of inquis stack, one to survive.. so you need 4-6 furies per attack. Hmm. Not that bad. It worked better in h3, though.
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Izzachar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 24, 2006 11:02 AM |
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I did something like that with against a necro with inferno relying on hellfire + searing flames only to find out he had both tactics and windstrider boots. so after moving cerberus he managed to kill me before my heroes turn. So I lost my main doing a snowty raid with my neutral clearing army.
You must get one of the furies to act after your hero then but still before some of his units. I never done it but it seems as if it could be a gamble.
Best thing would probably be to do as I did the first attack then maybe when his numbers were lower I could do something like that. But as usual I got a bit tired of the game and wanted it to end. Him or Me 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 24, 2006 11:08 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:21, 24 Aug 2006.
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Hehe you don't like micromanagement I can tell that much But why waste your furies scout work just as well(a might hero will not have fireball or meteor shower-not unless he has a scroll).
A question:Now scrolls work like in H3?I saw no charges,no school restrictions etc.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted August 24, 2006 12:39 PM |
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Quote:
I did something like that with against a necro with inferno relying on hellfire + searing flames only to find out he had both tactics and windstrider boots. so after moving cerberus he managed to kill me before my heroes turn. So I lost my main doing a snowty raid with my neutral clearing army.
You must get one of the furies to act after your hero then but still before some of his units. I never done it but it seems as if it could be a gamble.
Best thing would probably be to do as I did the first attack then maybe when his numbers were lower I could do something like that. But as usual I got a bit tired of the game and wanted it to end. Him or Me
the size of his stacks, shouldn't matter, one stack of his will always be able to kill one fury! What matters is that he can't kill all those 7 stacks, cause the Squires don't reach enough, and there are others that might not reach! Includin the Paladins if he doesn't have tactics. So all you have to do is wait , with all those Furies. Sure there are methods of protection against this kind of hit & run... like having also a stack of archers, and tactics... but it might also work, thus enabling you to reduce his army before main combat
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Izzachar
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 24, 2006 01:01 PM |
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Or you might loose your main before main combat and it sucks
What I meant about the stacks were that, I managed to kill everything except marksmen and inquisitors the first fight. So odds of griffins reaching you etc after that were 0%
Lets say he's got archers he can split them in two groups if he trained peasants, even three groups cause the angel spot is free.
Thats 3 AoEs right there. Now lets say hes got stone spikes and tactics.
Its a pretty risky operation actually.
His archers have 8 initiative or is it 9? They might all act before your hero if you are unlucky. Sure you can retreat becuase furies have super initiative if it seems the ATB bar is against you but doing this over and over costs gold and you loose hero development. So when you run around with 7 furies and trying to make some raids against his hero he might still be creeping etc
But I know operations like this can be very usefull but after that time against that necro Im gonna be alot more carefull planning something like that. I did use dungeon like the way you suggested once vs inferno. As I know everything his units could do I felt safe and it made me win that game.
As I said Im unexperienced with dungeon and untill I know the faction better I wouldnt dare doing something like that vs a faction I dont know that good either =)
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