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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 30, 2006 09:30 PM |
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Not unbeatable but more powerful than others more or less.Heard of imbalances?They exist and at equal skill a haven player has more chances to win.I have played all factions and while I am not truly experienced I know enough to say that no matter what tactics you may use against it you are at a disadvantage.Haven increases in power effortlessly while others must DO certain things to keep up even at 1.4.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 30, 2006 09:33 PM |
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted November 30, 2006 10:29 PM |
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Imbalances
Let's talk a little about imbalances that I have read about. The obvious one at hand is the marksman imbalance with Haven. I have also read about the lucky empowered spells imbalance with Dungeon. I've read about the imbued rain of arrows imbalance with Sylvann. I've read about the Deleb imbalance with Inferno. I've read about the skellies imbalance with Necro. I've recently read about the MMR imbalance with Academy. If everyone is imbalanced maybe it comes a lttle closer than you think to balancing out. These are not imbalances they are strengths. Everyone has their own way to win. I know the popular thing to say now is that they are imbalanced because they are obviously not the same and then we can complain about changes that Nival needs to make. The factions are not the same and it would be boring if they were. They are all competitive averaging out over all the different types of maps and positions. I'm expecting to be called inexperienced or nieve, but I'll take the "imbalances" in Heroes V over the hopeless situation that some faction were put into in the earlier Heroes.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 30, 2006 10:43 PM |
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Quote:
Let's talk a little about imbalances that I have read about. The obvious one at hand is the marksman imbalance with Haven. I have also read about the lucky empowered spells imbalance with Dungeon. I've read about the imbued rain of arrows imbalance with Sylvann. I've read about the Deleb imbalance with Inferno. I've read about the skellies imbalance with Necro. I've recently read about the MMR imbalance with Academy.
Lucky empowered spells:Strong but you may not get luck and if you do chances are you'll sacrifice something very important.
Imbued rain of arrows:Gimme a break!The imbued triple ballista maybe but you'll almost never get it.Why,you plan on taking dark magic and imbue it with frenzy/puppet master?If not it's not as crazy.Mana for destructive will drain you soon enough and at any rate the damage is decent-not outstanding.If you have more than one favoured enemies in the opponents army.
Deleb imbalance:Yes she is strong and a gifted rusher.In a big map she can be overcome although she could do with some nerfing.
Skellies imbalance:Can be overcome with any faction.Let's not compare it to training,shall we?
As cited innumerable times training always works,needs no requirements and has no disadvantage except not going for angels.If you don't believe me try these 'imbalances' against it.
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vhilhu
Famous Hero
We are NOT schysophren
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posted November 30, 2006 10:55 PM |
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havens inbalance is really an imbalance.
necromancy is a bit balanced by its weak other units.
but rain of arrows is an imbalance? compare that to training / necromancy? rain of arrows is imbalance in only that its better than most other skills for sylvan.
about deleb i dont know, i dont play much inferno. but again, i bet deleb isnt as great as dougal.
MMR seems suspicious for me, but ill not fall into that discussion here. it certainly cant be as good as training or necromancy. or havens units - all havens units are good for their tier, even peasants get a lot of money you need for marksmen. haven has both marksman flood and strong units. + light magic, which is perhaps the best.
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Two little Gnoll boys sitting in the sun;
One got frizzled up and then there was one.
One little Gnoll boy left all alone;
He went and hung himself and then there were none.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 30, 2006 11:08 PM |
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MMR has its downsides as well.I tried it a few times and saw these:You NEED to take summoning,destructive and motw.Fast.You need fast lvling but it may happen that six treasure chests in a row offer you 500 xp.It has happened to me.The spells that appear in your guild may give you a bad combination and even the library guarantees nothing.Dark while cool is like playing heads or tails.If you don't get conjure phoenix while it doesn't break your game it limits you a lot.Finally the lvl ups may not be favourable and you are left open for another rusher.IF you get all the resources you need.
Quite powerful but allows for miscalculation and chaos in your game.I love it!Not unbeatable but it certainly gives an edge.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted November 30, 2006 11:14 PM |
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How many times have you used Haven on either small maps or very poor maps? It might be a strech to say that Haven's marksman strategy works everytime in every situation.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted November 30, 2006 11:23 PM |
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I don't get all this MMR thing. It jumped out of nowhere and suddenly became a "good strategy" or even "unbeatable strategy". What kind of folly is that? Counting all the separative requirements and costs to make this strategy work, this is simply too much fuss! Two or even three magic schools, level 5 mage guild, lots of luck to get the proper spells, TONS of resources to be able to build the dwellings and guilds simultanously, and some kind of crappy hero that offers ONE OH SO LEET extra point of initiative on level 20 or so (which doesn't work with mass spells anyway), MOTW, level 20, 200 mana, another ton of resources for mini-artifacts, around 4 goldmines and 4 cleared utopias to get enough gold, and the certanity that the enemy won't simply say "do you really think I am dumb enough to let you gather all of this" and rush you. Yeah, of course - brilliant! And when you finally get this, haven hero has already 1000 marksmen, unless he didn't kill you already. Yeah, whatever. 
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted November 30, 2006 11:46 PM |
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the imbalances are much smaller than they used to be, the game went in the right direction !
DoomForge, the question about MMR is : can you really level up much faster by using MMR than by the classical way. Is MMR faster than Havez + First Aid Tent and creature dwellings & upgrades buildup first(and no losses)? on the long turn it is obvious that getting 3 types of magic is very inneficient... but on the short turn it might work, but it is very risky. the key of this strategy is knowing what to do with the spells you get... although i doubt that a Arcane Armor + Word of Light + Curse of the Netherworld combination at lvl 5 will ever take you to a win ! anyway having 3 magic schools and so many spells in your guild gives you very good chances to get something good ...
istari , the reason why people think haven is unbalanced is that if you find a poor map, you can skip some creatures or some expensive upgrades and still have plenty of marksmen, or you can choose to get more advanced creatures ... and still have a very powerfull army
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted December 01, 2006 02:20 AM |
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Edited by Istari at 02:34, 01 Dec 2006.
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Quote:
the imbalances are much smaller than they used to be, the game went in the right direction !
Quote:
I agree
Quote:
istari , the reason why people think haven is unbalanced is that if you find a poor map, you can skip some creatures or some expensive upgrades and still have plenty of marksmen, or you can choose to get more advanced creatures ... and still have a very powerfull army
Being able to win in any map is not the same as dominating every map.
I think we are on the same page but I feel the need to beat the proverbial dead horse.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted December 11, 2006 12:49 AM |
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guys ... i just finished my most memorable h5 game on toh ...
the map was battle for honor, and we started as random . strangely i got Haven as my town and my opponent got dungeon + lethos . after searching a little my tavern i also got Dougal 
after this game i can surely say dungeon is really a huge opponent for haven !
there were 3 battles and i won the first 2 remaining with 187 out of 600 marksmen, 10 out of 10 paladins and ~50 squires after the first battle.
after the second i remaind with nothing but 4 marksmen , but strangely in the third, when i had the least troops , i didnt let him retreat, and gave the final blow !
i will tell you more about it tommorow  ... anyway , i saw 4500 dmg from implosion crushing my marksmen(empowered implosion + 26 SP + earth slippers ) , and i can say dungeon isn't inferior to haven !
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 11, 2006 01:13 AM |
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Dungeon certainly can be a formidable opponent. Problem is they really need time to build up their hero. A high-level Warlock will have had time to collect a fair selection of artifacts from the merchants to increase knowledge (vital) and spell damage (important), and to maximize skills like Sorcery and Destructive Magic - and yes, empowered Implosion + Elemental Vision can really hurt.
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted December 11, 2006 12:35 PM |
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But it takes sooo much time to get.. : (
You'll probably get rushed meanwhile..
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted December 11, 2006 03:05 PM |
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Quote:
But it takes sooo much time to get.. : (
You'll probably get rushed meanwhile..
this map allows development , since it has lots of titans(which might not grow) , and lots of archdevils in the middle (which grow ) ... when i fought them in late week 4 there were horde of archdevils (50). anyway it is really impresive to see 400 marksmen blown away in one implosion.
I probably made many mistakes , not knowing the map very well , but i had a weekly growth of 160 marksmen ... and i was very close to losing... luckyly in the last fight most of my troops resisted the poissoning , which killed 300 hp / turn .
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Towerlord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted December 25, 2006 04:03 AM |
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I think this thread has finally come to an end ...
Haven superiority has been broken, at least from my point of view. I lost my first game when playing with Haven vs. others ... My brave defeater was Deleb. I played a strange new map, taken from a russian site, that me opponent and I didn't know, and even though I didn't have two havens on it, the map was very rich(many gold mines) and perfect for haven in all the ways. Perhaps I played a little bad , and didn't take the right route with my main ( towards the utopia) and had to turn back for that, and that gave my opponent a stats advantage(also i didnt get good artifacts at utoopia  ), but still the decisive factor was him sucking me dry of my mana( 80 mana , aftert first suck 22, after gated 0 ) and puppeting my paladins ( i even trained some , that's how rich the map was !!!) , and killing me softly.
So from my point of view, 1.4 & 2.0 balanced things pretty well , and now ... gating is really crazy now , really ugly to see double dogs and others ! Really powerfull town this inferno is
Bye bye for now , Merry Christmas everyone
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 25, 2006 06:15 AM |
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No,that just proves that haven does not have an edge over inferno
Merry christmas!
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted December 25, 2006 07:18 AM |
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Told ya!
The power of 1nferno Such an underlooked castle, yet very, very strong and fun ^_^
merry xmas ma niggaz
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted December 25, 2006 11:44 PM |
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Good to read that all don't think that Haven has superiority over other towns. That was good feedback from your games TowerLord and now i hope people can apreciate the other fanctions in the game aswell.
Dungeon and Inferno can fight well againts Haven and also towns like Sylvan and new Fortress can challange Haven also whit their new rune magic and powerfull Magma Dragons!
Academy and Necropolis can take beating by Haven more times than otherwise but still not 100% sure victory for Haven ofcurse.
Thread: Heavan superiority ?! -Nope i don't think so. Powerfull but beatable aswell.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted December 26, 2006 12:41 AM |
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Towerlord never said unbeatable but having an advantage big or small according to the enemy faction.And inferno gained strength recently with the gating changes.
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86wyp
Adventuring Hero
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posted December 26, 2006 07:26 PM |
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Quote:
MMR has its downsides as well.I tried it a few times and saw these:You NEED to take summoning,destructive and motw.Fast.You need fast lvling but it may happen that six treasure chests in a row offer you 500 xp.It has happened to me.The spells that appear in your guild may give you a bad combination and even the library guarantees nothing.Dark while cool is like playing heads or tails.If you don't get conjure phoenix while it doesn't break your game it limits you a lot.Finally the lvl ups may not be favourable and you are left open for another rusher.IF you get all the resources you need.
Quite powerful but allows for miscalculation and chaos in your game.I love it!Not unbeatable but it certainly gives an edge.
Well, you don't have to take summoning and destructive if you do not want to rush, only motw is a must have. Knowing that you have the right to learn anyone of the four schools of magics, the best would be choosing magics carefully and make them suits your strategy. The best combination of magics for academy in LATE game would be light+dark, arcane armor is also a great addon.
To counter haven with academy, mass deflect missle is a key. With dm
and artis and mini-arties which buff deffense, 1000 markmen with archery and battle frenzy may only kill 2 titans each shot. Another key is suppress light, with that ability haven hero will be out of mana 3 or 4 turns after the beginnng of the battle most of the time. Another trick is to buff djinns with speed and intiative then use them to block the knights.
In the final battle, first cast light magics on Academy's troops then cast dark magics on haven troops, after that cast motw+resurrection/phantom forces/arcane shield. haven may defend themselves with mass cleansing but their hero won't have that many mana to overcome suppress light. Even they cast immunity, their troops will lose blessings. Also remember to buff high level troops with attack and defense, shooters with intiative and djinns with speed.
Haven indeed is a very powerful faction in middle and late game. But Academy with good magics doesn't afraid of any faction.
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