|
| Thread: Advanced Classes - A specific suggestion for modification of Class System. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
posted October 29, 2006 09:49 PM |
|
|
Let's finish off the first half, before I move to the second, alright?
Lord
OK so morale penalties are fine, but my fear was not of micro-management, but of the loss of my units, imagine a stack of nightmares crashing into your troops before you can react, the damage may not be critical, but still it is rather painful. That's why I see it as a penalty, and that's why it looks to me that these abilities give you one major bonus and two minor penalties, and that's why I'm not sure if it's worth it.
But I have to say that I do see the logic behind it so I'm not really sure what to do. Maybe lowering the limit as you proposed is the best thing to do.
Cleric
Stacking Benediction and Prayer is a nice way out of it, although it may prove to be a bit overpowering. Then again this combination is only available to the Cleric who would probably prefer to cast some mass light spells instead anyway.
+50% combat damage sounds much better imo. I even wanted to say that Divine Fervour adds the Demonic Slayer ability to the Prayer (because
all of the Inferno units are demonic), but than I realized that the Heretic cannot have something like that.
Demoniac
Sounds well enough.
Mystic
I think that in this case the easiest way is also the best way. Usually when a hero acquires a spell through ability it comes with a bonus (Endurance with no cost, Teleport with assault effect etc.), so there is no problem with 100% success. Also when a Ranger Imbues his arrow he is stuck with it until the end of battle, so I guess draining mana automatically is ok. The problem with that would be if you start the battle with low mana and you know for a fact you don't want to use it on cleansing. I see three options here: a)like you said, tough luck. b)choosin at the tactics phase whether you want to use it or not {I don't really like that one} c)choosing in battle when to start using it, just like Imbue Arrow {actually this too sounds weird so option "a" is probably the best for me}.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted October 29, 2006 10:35 PM |
|
|
Sure, let's try to settle these issues for the best solution before dragging in new parts. 
Quote:
Lord
OK so morale penalties are fine, but my fear was not of micro-management, but of the loss of my units, imagine a stack of nightmares crashing into your troops before you can react, the damage may not be critical, but still it is rather painful. That's why I see it as a penalty, and that's why it looks to me that these abilities give you one major bonus and two minor penalties, and that's why I'm not sure if it's worth it.
But I have to say that I do see the logic behind it so I'm not really sure what to do. Maybe lowering the limit as you proposed is the best thing to do.
I don't know how familiar with Role Play Gaming like Dungeons and Dragons you are. I was with this "Lord" quite inspired by the traditional Paladin class. The Paladin was always a very difficult class to handle, because you got a lot of bonus, but in the same time a lot of restrictions. The Paladin always felt obliged to act, when somebody was doing something that was against his moral codex, and would never work with someone of different alignment than himself.
I write all this to let you know my motivation for some of these choices I made. The Paladin never takes the easy way, he takes the right way. And since the Lord is one a quest to destroy the Infernal forces, he will always hunt them down and kill them - even at a loss to himself. Of course, this makes life more difficult for him, and the bonus should be that he gets more XP - which should of course ballance the trouble - otherwise, the skill should be changed. But that was my motivation for making it this way. I hope this makes sense.
Quote:
Cleric
Stacking Benediction and Prayer is a nice way out of it, although it may prove to be a bit overpowering. Then again this combination is only available to the Cleric who would probably prefer to cast some mass light spells instead anyway.
I don't think the stacking will be a problem. Benediction is pretty crappy - you get like +1 Attack, Defence, and Speed. The major problem will be to not make Prayer overpowered - I nerfed it a bit, maybe it needs more, but to use two turns for that will not be grossly overpowered imo.
Quote:
Mystic
I think that in this case the easiest way is also the best way. Usually when a hero acquires a spell through ability it comes with a bonus (Endurance with no cost, Teleport with assault effect etc.), so there is no problem with 100% success. Also when a Ranger Imbues his arrow he is stuck with it until the end of battle, so I guess draining mana automatically is ok. The problem with that would be if you start the battle with low mana and you know for a fact you don't want to use it on cleansing. I see three options here: a)like you said, tough luck. b)choosin at the tactics phase whether you want to use it or not {I don't really like that one} c)choosing in battle when to start using it, just like Imbue Arrow {actually this too sounds weird so option "a" is probably the best for me}.
I think it would make most sense in temrs of gameplay just to make it happen, and say tough luck. It's not optimal, I could remember some cases where you would be very annoyed that it happened, but I think it will only be rarely. As you say, that's how it is with Imbue Ballista. Of course, if there is a better solution, one should go for that, but I can't see one easily.
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted October 30, 2006 12:34 AM |
|
|
I am more or less familiar with D&D so I understand what you mean, and it makes perfect sense now. I also agree with the rest of your post and since I don't have a better solution to the Mystic's mana problem, I think we can close this part for now, unless someone else would like to comment of course.
I'm very tired right now so I'm gonna get some sleep and continue tommorrow.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted October 30, 2006 08:33 AM |
|
|
|
Thank you - your serious and in-depth feedback is very much appreciated. Will look forward to hear more from you.
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted October 30, 2006 12:53 PM |
|
|
Well it takes a creative artist AND an annoying critic to get close to perfection, and I just loooove to annoy .... oh and to critisize too..
Now let's get back on track...
Overlord
First of all great idea, since Dungeon is the only town so far using slaves (and I can clearly see the D&D influence again ).
I don't know if you intended it this way, but did you notice the "combo" of Exploitation and minotaurs' Bravery? It makes them very fierce foes...
You haven't mentioned how long the unit stays fatigued, does it mean it stays like this until the end of the battle? And if so can you Exploit a fatigued unit again?
Tireless Units is indeed an ULTIMATE ABILITY. You didn't mentioned it, but I halving morale penalties should rounded up imo (for the worst).
Sorcerer
Spontaneous Casting - taking the retaliation one step forward, eh? few things...
Does the Hero need to have that spell in his book or does he just copy it at the spot?
I already see a new anti-Sorcerer tactic: give Chain Lightning to all your secondary heroes and send them to battle with one or two units. (at least area spells won't work, because of the Magical Shaping).
Alchemist
The perfect solution to most of the Academy problems... Although by the time you can get that class and develop it a bit the need for resources is not that great. Maybe I'm wrong but this doesn't look like a very attractive class to me...
Sage
With a hero like that who needs expensive units... one thing...
How does it stack with all the quick casting abilties from the Sorcery skill? I don't remember the numbers, but I think it could get to the point where the Sage is almost the only one who's doing anything on the battlefield.
Sniper
"range of Ranged units" is their no distance penalty range?
Scatter Shot to everyone sounds problematic, balista doing a scatter shot is just too weird, and there are special ranged units, like mages and succubi mistress' ...
Explosive arrows makes scatter shot completely useless and besides it's just very dangerous to your own troops.
Warden
Can't really comment without seeing it in battle, sounds awfully powerful while the tent is there, and completely useless when it's destroyed.
Well I guess that's it for now. Btw you don't have to respond to everything if you don't feel like it, we could take it one/two class at a time.
|
|
Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
|
|
posted October 30, 2006 05:06 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Will look forward to hear more from you.
hmm, alc seems like a robot in that sentence
____________
Visit my Site!
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted October 30, 2006 06:11 PM |
|
|
Oooh ... Tought ones. I'll answer for me the best that I can. And no wories, it is a huge help in this, to have someone put so detailed questions when one has actually taken time to try to come up with something that might work.
Quote:
Overlord
First of all great idea, since Dungeon is the only town so far using slaves (and I can clearly see the D&D influence again ).
I don't know if you intended it this way, but did you notice the "combo" of Exploitation and minotaurs' Bravery? It makes them very fierce foes...
You haven't mentioned how long the unit stays fatigued, does it mean it stays like this until the end of the battle? And if so can you Exploit a fatigued unit again?
Tireless Units is indeed an ULTIMATE ABILITY. You didn't mentioned it, but I halving morale penalties should rounded up imo (for the worst).
I had, in fact, not really considered the case with the Minotaur. However, I see that this makes the Minotaur have a special value for the Overlord, and I think that's great, because the Minotaur currently stands as the great looser in the Dungeon line-up, the one that's not really good at anything.
Fatigue would remain for the rest of the combat, just like the moral penalty, and you would not be able to double-exploit a unit.
I'm not sure how to read your comment on Tireless units - do you think it's overpowered? The cut down on Morale penalty will sure be usefull, but with Expert Exploitation (btw. - can someone come up with a better word for this? I simply couldn't find one that was really suitable!) the effect remains for 6 turns, which will probably take you through most battles, so the removal of the exhaustion will probably only be really usefull in rare battles. Of cause, the very long battles are often the most important ones.
Quote:
Sorcerer
Spontaneous Casting - taking the retaliation one step forward, eh? few things...
Does the Hero need to have that spell in his book or does he just copy it at the spot?
I already see a new anti-Sorcerer tactic: give Chain Lightning to all your secondary heroes and send them to battle with one or two units. (at least area spells won't work, because of the Magical Shaping).
I actually think the Spontaneous Casting (or counter-casting) thing is really fun. It would certainly make you think twice before you use that Implosion! The Sorcerer should have the Spell in his Spellbook for this to work. And yes, I suppose Chain Lightning would have to be cut in with the Magical Shaping in order to avoid the tactic you descripe. Armageddon, however, should have a special status, since that's not a targeted spell.
Quote:
Alchemist
The perfect solution to most of the Academy problems... Although by the time you can get that class and develop it a bit the need for resources is not that great. Maybe I'm wrong but this doesn't look like a very attractive class to me...
Hmmm ... Well - it depends on the map, I'd say, and your strategy. You can potentially have the Advanced Class quite early, and there's no doubt you might wanna go for this if you have one or two Whitch Huts close to your town with Might Skills. However, I agree that the bonuses might be improved, and I was really at a loss when I had to fit skills and abilities into this Class - I decided to go with the Ressource thing, because that sits well with the Alchemist title, but maybe something more should be added to either substitude or go with this. Any suggestions?
Quote:
Sage
With a hero like that who needs expensive units... one thing...
How does it stack with all the quick casting abilties from the Sorcery skill? I don't remember the numbers, but I think it could get to the point where the Sage is almost the only one who's doing anything on the battlefield.
Hmmm ... Yes, it might be a bit over the top. I actually think that when I first had the idea for this skill a very long time ago, I did not even know that Sorcery did this same thing (I still believed Sorcery increased spell damage!). Therefore, a reasonable change would probably be that Enchantment subtrackts another 20 % or 30 % Initiative use on casting, which stacks with Sorcery for a total of 50 % (or 60 % ? - but that's probably too much) Initiative bonus maximally. But yes, this Mage is deffinitely gonna burn a lot of Mana on the battlefield - however, he will not be very strong in Destructive Magic.
Quote:
Sniper
"range of Ranged units" is their no distance penalty range?
Scatter Shot to everyone sounds problematic, balista doing a scatter shot is just too weird, and there are special ranged units, like mages and succubi mistress' ...
Explosive arrows makes scatter shot completely useless and besides it's just very dangerous to your own troops.
Yeah, it should increase the distance at which the fire with no range penalty.
The Scatter shot thing is probably a bad idea - also, because it will become redundant if ones sticks to the explosive arrows thing. Would just have to come up with something new then.
With regards to the Explosive Arrows - there was an artifact in Heroes 4, that gave you Fireball Arrows. You might remember that. I thought that was great fun. I remember having that artifact and a huge group of Cyclops and Elves with me ... But of course, we could choose to make it optional - units could always use normal missiles. And of course, there's a problem with the graphics, because many ranged units often use magical projectiles (Mage, Succubus, Titan, Witch, Inquisitor, Druid). Don't know how to work elegantly around that - or if one should just let it be (of course, the Mage could not use this ability, and the Succubi probably shouldn't either!!).
EDIT > An alternative Ultimate Ability: Sniper's Vengeance: All ranged units gain the Ranged Retaliation ability. Units that already have this ability get one extra retaliation. Just a thought - would it work - or would it be overpowered?
Quote:
Warden
Can't really comment without seeing it in battle, sounds awfully powerful while the tent is there, and completely useless when it's destroyed.
Yes, that's the big problem with the Tent idea - in late game, 500 HP is like nothing. It probably should be a Hero ability instead - like a spell-like ability. In that way, you could also avoid having the Hero boost the units with spells as the same time as the Healing tent works. Should only use some 70 % of Initiative, however, at Expert level (like Hero gets 10 / 20 / 30 % Initiative bonus to this skill at Basic / Advanced / Expert level) - otherwise, it probably wont do you much good, because Hero's only act rarely with their basic Initiative of 10 - especially in the Sylvan army!
Well ... That's about my 5 cents for the first lap of second round. Please do return for more.
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted October 30, 2006 10:42 PM |
|
Edited by Geny at 22:49, 30 Oct 2006.
|
The second lap of the second round will begin shortly. Is everyone ready? 3...2...1...GO!
Overlord
OK for the minotaurs.
Leaving a unit with up to -3 morale penalty for the rest of the battle could be quite dangerous. To counter this I propose to switch either Luck or War Machines with Leadership as a prerequsite to the ultimate ability to make that skill more attractive.
I didn't think about the long duration of the Expert Exploitation (btw it's 8 rounds including the Superior Constitution), that brings the power of the ability to a more reasonable level. Anyway, what I really wanted to say is that when you halve a -3 morale penalty you get -1.5, I thought it should be rounded up to -2 so as not to make the ability too powerful. But now considering the first part of this ability is almost useless I'm not sure anymore.
Sorcerer
Yes it could be fun and the more I think about it the more interesting details come to my mind.
-If an area spell hits your units but not targets them (i.e. they're not in the middle of the area) does that count?
-What if you counter spell on a unit with magic-mirror?
-Maybe you should leave Chain Lightning out of Magical Shaping as an intentional "flaw" and instead raise the success chance a bit?
Alchemist
Hmmm... well when we think might Wizard we think about Alchemist because of HOMM3 (or we may think MightyMage, but he's irrelevant right now), but it doesn't have to be like this... a good idea maybe to focus on their construction abilities (gargoyles, golems, colossi) or their mutation experiments (they did create all the beastmen). I'm not sure how to make it work... maybe something about creature growth or creature stats...
Of course there is also their profound hate towards the undead, but I don't think that it should focused on.
Sage
So the preparation changes to quick spellcasting? Sounds fine, but now the abilities need a major change as well... oh and one more thing... do you know the exact numbers for Jhora's specialty?
Sniper
Yes scatter shot should go, anyway Sniper is about precision not quantity, so maybe you could double the effect of the Precision skill. Or maybe remove the obstacle penalty (there is an obstacle penalty in homm5, right?).
I think making Explosives Arrows an activated ability is much better, the graphics will still be a problem, but I have absolutely no idea what can be done about it.
EDIT:Sniper's Vengeance, eh? I don't know... the succubi are weak, but their chain shot makes the retaliation painful. If all your elves and druids (and any other shooters you can find) will be able to retaliate...  OMG!!! That's too much!!! You know what I imagined right now? A stack of angry titans shooting back at you!!! The mere thought of it makes wanna crawl under my bed and stay there for the rest of my life...
Warden
Maybe making it hero abilities is better, but remember Warden is a Magic Hero, giving him too much abilities would prevent him from casting spells.Maybe if also tied some of the abilities to hero's knowledge it would make more sense {it is his knowledge of herbs we're talking about here).
On a side note: why did you swapped the importance of att/def stats for the Sylvan advanced classes (i.e. made the attack grow faster then the defence)?
Well that's it for now folks... Something tells me this round will be muuuuch longer then the first one...
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted October 31, 2006 12:14 AM |
|
|
A short reply, and then bedtime. Will not cover all.
Quote:
Overlord
Leaving a unit with up to -3 morale penalty for the rest of the battle could be quite dangerous. To counter this I propose to switch either Luck or War Machines with Leadership as a prerequsite to the ultimate ability to make that skill more attractive.
I didn't think about the long duration of the Expert Exploitation (btw it's 8 rounds including the Superior Constitution), that brings the power of the ability to a more reasonable level. Anyway, what I really wanted to say is that when you halve a -3 morale penalty you get -1.5, I thought it should be rounded up to -2 so as not to make the ability too powerful. But now considering the first part of this ability is almost useless I'm not sure anymore.
I intentionally did *not* include Leadership. Overlords are bad and ruthless Leaders, that's what the whole thing with Exploitation is about. And, better than to halve, perhaps just lower Morale penalty with 2 (Forced March + Expert Exploitation will still hurt ... but then, so much more incentive to end battle quickly!).
Quote:
Sorcerer
Yes it could be fun and the more I think about it the more interesting details come to my mind.
-If an area spell hits your units but not targets them (i.e. they're not in the middle of the area) does that count?
-What if you counter spell on a unit with magic-mirror?
-Maybe you should leave Chain Lightning out of Magical Shaping as an intentional "flaw" and instead raise the success chance a bit?
Magical Shaping will only affect your own spells. Enemy spells will still be able to target your creatures. If you Counter cast on a unit with Magic Mirror ... Ehm ... Of course, that's gonna hurt - a lot. Of course, chance will be only like 9 %, but that's still 1 in 11. I would probably say, in the rare case, let the two abilities negate each other.
Quote:
Alchemist
Hmmm... well when we think might Wizard we think about Alchemist because of HOMM3 (or we may think MightyMage, but he's irrelevant right now), but it doesn't have to be like this... a good idea maybe to focus on their construction abilities (gargoyles, golems, colossi) or their mutation experiments (they did create all the beastmen). I'm not sure how to make it work... maybe something about creature growth or creature stats...
Of course there is also their profound hate towards the undead, but I don't think that it should focused on.
I think the undead thing belongs to the Wizards of Sages rather than with the Alchemists. The Construct thing would be obvious, however. Just a thought - triple upgrades for Constructs:
Stone Gargoyles > Obsidian Gargoyles > Diamond Gargoyles
Iron Golems > Steel Golems > Gold Golems
Something to actually make those units usefull - I'm thinking, more Damage to Gargoyles, and more Speed to Golems! Possibly coupled with the resource thing as a by-product.
Quote:
Sage
So the preparation changes to quick spellcasting? Sounds fine, but now the abilities need a major change as well... oh and one more thing... do you know the exact numbers for Jhora's specialty?
Preparation should remain as it is - or that was my thought. I just want to change the wording "Once prepared, the Sage uses only 50 % initiative to cast the spell" to "Once prepared, the Sage used 20 % less Initiative to cast the spell (bonus cummulates with Sorcery bonus)". The Skills could remain - I think they are ok as they are.
Quote:
Sniper
Yes scatter shot should go, anyway Sniper is about precision not quantity, so maybe you could double the effect of the Precision skill. Or maybe remove the obstacle penalty (there is an obstacle penalty in homm5, right?).
I think making Explosives Arrows an activated ability is much better, the graphics will still be a problem, but I have absolutely no idea what can be done about it.
EDIT:Sniper's Vengeance, eh? I don't know... the succubi are weak, but their chain shot makes the retaliation painful. If all your elves and druids (and any other shooters you can find) will be able to retaliate... OMG!!! That's too much!!! You know what I imagined right now? A stack of angry titans shooting back at you!!! The mere thought of it makes wanna crawl under my bed and stay there for the rest of my life...
Obstacle penalty is an excellent idea! Could easily replace Scatter Shot!  I buy that right away.
I actually like the idea of Ranged Retaliation. It's a pain in the *** but it's not THAT cumbersome. It generally buys you a little time, because the enemy either has to put in his melee unit, or sacrifice one of his ranged units - but it's not something that'll tip the scales completely (unless he only has ranged units, and in that case, too bad (bye bye Marksmen ;P)). It will certainly help preserve your ranged units, and that's fine ... No, actually, I still think it's a possible solution. I actually like it better than the explosive thing.
Quote:
Warden
Maybe making it hero abilities is better, but remember Warden is a Magic Hero, giving him too much abilities would prevent him from casting spells. Maybe if also tied some of the abilities to hero's knowledge it would make more sense {it is his knowledge of herbs we're talking about here).
That's the same thing with the Prayer / Benediction ability of the Knight. Many of the Knight abilities are nice, but will prevent your Hero from taking action. I think that's a fair payoff. And since someone commented that they found this ability to be very powerfull - maybe it's a good thing, to have a drawback, that it'll prevent your Hero from using spells.
Tying it to knowledge is a good thing. Could be easily implemented - for instance through the Healing amount possible (2 / 5 / 10 x Knowledge?).
Quote:
On a side note: why did you swapped the importance of att/def stats for the Sylvan advanced classes (i.e. made the attack grow faster then the defence)?
Ehm ... Actually, I swapped Attack and Defence of the Sniper to make him different from the Alchemist, and I swapped them for the Warden to make him different from the Cleric. I wanted all classes to have different stats. Perhaps I should have made the Alchemist the offensive one - after all, the Wizard has Attack as a prerequisite for their ultimate ability - but well, the Sniper seems pretty offensive as well, so I thought this would be ok. Also, having the ranged with 45 % defence and the Sniper with 40 % defence makes a VERY defensive unit - whereas this would be more ballanced. Now you have the reason - the other solution might be better.
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted October 31, 2006 10:14 PM |
|
|
Overlord
Ok I've given it some more thought and I agree with you, Leadership doesn't work well with Exploitation, and besides nobody forces the player to use it at the beginning and suffer from exhaustion later. It can be a great coupe de grace skill.
Sorcerer
I meant area spells that are directed at the Sorcerer's troops, will he counter even if that area spell doesn't target one of his units specifically? (it may be a bit hard to imlement such a counter)
Mirror and counter-spell negating each other? Could work... But you know, I looked at this class again, and I realized that it's a pretty powerful class without any negatives sides, and since magic mirror, along with anti-magic and resistances, is probably the only thing that can stop the Sorcerer, maybe it will be better to leave it as it is?
Alchemist
I think I like the triple upgrade idea... Let's see... I know gremlins aren't constructs but they're using machinery so what do you say to something like this:
Basic Construct - Gremlin Masters > Gremlin Canoneers
Advanced Construct - Obsydian Gargoyle > Diamond Gargoyle (although I think we should find some extremely hard rock instead of diamond)
Expert Construct - Steel Golem > Gold Golem
Ultimate Construct - Titan > *insert a cool name* (I know Titan is tier 7, but it's the only construct left and ultimate level is hardly attainable).
Higher resource income could be a by product of the skill, and better marketplace rate - one of the abilities.
Sage
OK now I understand. Sounds fine to me.
The only thing that still looks kinda weird to me is the Master Of Schools ability. I can't really put my finger on it though. Maybe it's the possibility of 6 prepared spells even with high mana consumption... I don't know, something just feels not right here...
Sniper
OK I may have overreacted here. Now that I think of it, it does sounds quite nice, no problem with the graphics and special ranged units (mages, succubi mistress). Retaliating Titans are a fearful thought, but the Elves still remain Sniper's main shooters, and they are so fragile they could use some more protection... Yeah it probably is a better idea then explosive arrows. There's only one thing I find wrong here, and that's the succubi double retaliation, their upgrade can already hit 4 units (including yours when you're a Sniper) no need to make it 4*2.
Warden
I think you missed the point of the first line. Knight is a might-based hero, he doesn't rely on his spells. Warden may come from a might-based Ranger, but he himself is magic-based and should use it to his advantage. How many activated abilities does the Wizard have? MotW and Consume artifact? The first one is permament and the second is for crisis situations only. That's why I don't like Warden having too much activated abilities, and that's why I proposed to tie it to knowledge, so that him being a mage would make some difference.
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted October 31, 2006 11:00 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Sorcerer
I meant area spells that are directed at the Sorcerer's troops, will he counter even if that area spell doesn't target one of his units specifically? (it may be a bit hard to imlement such a counter)
Mirror and counter-spell negating each other? Could work... But you know, I looked at this class again, and I realized that it's a pretty powerful class without any negatives sides, and since magic mirror, along with anti-magic and resistances, is probably the only thing that can stop the Sorcerer, maybe it will be better to leave it as it is?
About the Counter-casting and area-spell - my original approach would be any destructive spell cast by the enemy, no matter the target. Should apply to Fireball and Meteor Shower also.
I know the Sorcerer is powerfull, but an ability that harms yourself is always extremely annoying. Therefore, I'd still say in the rare case (Sorcerer vs. Academy Hero with this skill, and 9 % chance), let them possibly negate. Of course, it would be very fun to be the Wizard when it happens (he who laughs last laughs longest!), but still, I know I would find it tremendously annoying as Sorcerer, and I know I'd hate the developers for making it like that. And if there's a trouble with the ballancing, it should be fixed by other means than destroying gameplay.
Quote:
Alchemist
I think I like the triple upgrade idea... Let's see... I know gremlins aren't constructs but they're using machinery so what do you say to something like this:
Basic Construct - Gremlin Masters > Gremlin Canoneers
Advanced Construct - Obsydian Gargoyle > Diamond Gargoyle (although I think we should find some extremely hard rock instead of diamond)
Expert Construct - Steel Golem > Gold Golem
Ultimate Construct - Titan > *insert a cool name* (I know Titan is tier 7, but it's the only construct left and ultimate level is hardly attainable).
Higher resource income could be a by product of the skill, and better marketplace rate - one of the abilities.
I'd limit this ability to Constructs* stricktly - only Gargoyles and Golems. The Titan and the Gremlin are fine as they are, so no need to boost them imo. I'd probably go for:
Basic Alchemy: Increase Gold income by 250 Gold + 10 % per level. Also produce randomly 1 of the precious ressources each day.
Advanced Alchemy: Increase Gold income by 500 Gold + 10 % per level. Also produce randomly 2 of the precious ressources each day.
Expert Alchemy: Increase Gold income by 1000 Gold + 10 % per level. Also produce randomly 4 of the precious ressources each day.
Master Of Animates: Provides ability to upgrade Obsidian Gargoyles to Quartz Gargoyles (or Diamond Gargoyles) with the following stats: 4 / 5 / 2-4 / 10 / 7 / 20. No new specials. Cost: 90 Gold.
Master Of Constructs: Provides ability to upgrade Steel Golems to Gold Golems with the following Stats: 7 / 7 / 5-7 / 9 / 5 / 30. Magic Proof 90 %. Cost: 170 Gold.
Master Of Transformation: Gets ability to transform resources on a 1:1 basis.
Shaper Of Elements (Ultimate Ability): Increases income from Alchemy skill by 50 %, and reduces upgrade cost to Quartz Gargoyles and Gold Golems by 50 %.
This skill selection is probably much more interesting than my original suggestions. I like the skill name "Secret Of Gold" (that sits so well with Alchemy), but I guess I have to sacrefice that. I still say, however - no upgraded Titans or Gremlins. Also, remember that Subclass Skills should probably only go to Expert level.
*Actually, the Gargoyle is not a Construct, but an Animate - which ties up to two nice abilities as above.
Quote:
Sage
OK now I understand. Sounds fine to me.
The only thing that still looks kinda weird to me is the Master Of Schools ability. I can't really put my finger on it though. Maybe it's the possibility of 6 prepared spells even with high mana consumption... I don't know, something just feels not right here...
The Mage cannot have 6 spells prepared at the same time. He always uses a partial ability to Prepare one of them, and then this spell, and only that one, is prepared. Without the Master of Schools ability, the Mage can prepare a total of 3 different spells during combat. What this skill does, is that it allows him to possibly prepare any number of spells within 3 schools (but he still prepares one at a time). Thus, if he has chosen to prepare Ressurection, he can prepare any other Light Magic spell without that counting against his maximum number of prepared spells.
Quote:
Sniper
OK I may have overreacted here. Now that I think of it, it does sounds quite nice, no problem with the graphics and special ranged units (mages, succubi mistress). Retaliating Titans are a fearful thought, but the Elves still remain Sniper's main shooters, and they are so fragile they could use some more protection... Yeah it probably is a better idea then explosive arrows. There's only one thing I find wrong here, and that's the succubi double retaliation, their upgrade can already hit 4 units (including yours when you're a Sniper) no need to make it 4*2.
Ok, I'll remove the Succubus condition then. How often does you Ranger run with Succubi anyway. I still have a good feeling about this ability.
Quote:
Warden
I think you missed the point of the first line. Knight is a might-based hero, he doesn't rely on his spells. Warden may come from a might-based Ranger, but he himself is magic-based and should use it to his advantage. How many activated abilities does the Wizard have? MotW and Consume artifact? The first one is permament and the second is for crisis situations only. That's why I don't like Warden having too much activated abilities, and that's why I proposed to tie it to knowledge, so that him being a mage would make some difference.
I can understand your thoughts here. That was why I made the Healing Tent in the first place - to take the action off the Warden. However, the problem with the tend is that it can be destroyed. Otherwise, the Tend would have to be invulnerable, which would make this ability very powerfull. So I really don't know the solution to that problem.
Hmmm - here's a thought. Hermalism ties to Potions. We could make something like the Runes of Rune Magic. The Runes are tied to the Hero, but activated by the creatures at any time in combat. How about this: The Herbalism skill makes the Hero able to craft Healing Potions. The preparation of each potion consumes ressources, just like the Dwarven runes. The power of the potions would depend on the Herbalism Skill and possibly on the Abilities - or, the Abilities would allow the Hero to craft different potions with different effects. I think the best solution would have potions with various side-effects (Initiative, Speed, Regeneration, etc.) that became available when you acquire the respective abilities, and have the more powerfull potions be more expensive.
I'm actually very excited by this idea. It could really turn into something usefull - it ties to the Hero, but does not use his turns. It consumes ressources to ballance it, so you won't just spam-use your potions. And it's not a direct-in-combat effect like the tend. Please, give me feedback on this!
|
|
yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
|
|
posted October 31, 2006 11:17 PM |
|
Edited by yasmiel at 23:23, 31 Oct 2006.
|
Maybe give additional HP per level to tent..
Potions... they should still use initiative, but maybe only some percentage... 33% or 50%
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted October 31, 2006 11:28 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Maybe give additional HP per level to tent..
Potions... they should still use initiative of the hero, but maybe only some percentage... 33% or 50%
HP / level might work, yes. But I actually think the Potion idea is better. More fun, at least. And it wouldn't have to use Hero Initiative - at least, Dwarven Runes don't. And I think this could take much the same approach. To have each potion consume some ressources - and increase the cost with multiple uses of same potion - ought to regulate it, I think, and leave the Hero free to use his spells.
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted November 01, 2006 10:41 AM |
|
Edited by Geny at 10:44, 01 Nov 2006.
|
Sorcerer
Ok so the point is that whenever an enemy hero casts a destructive spell the Sorcerer has a chance to a counter-spell (with the exception of Armaggedon). It's easier for me to understand it that way.
Ok I see point about annoying gameplay. Well I guess Academy has enough magic-resistant creatures and the anti-magic spell to withstand the Sorcerer's attacks without the magic mirror.
Alchemist
Yeah, you're right, it looks much better this way. The only thing I'm a bit worried about is the numbers. An Expert Alchemist on level 20 will get what? 3000gp per day? Isn't it a bit too much? And with your new experience system the heroes will get to high levels very fast. Maybe something along the lines of 100/250/500 will be better?
Other than that this class seems to solve most (if not all) of the Academy problems. Sounds strange that to become a powerful faction Academy needs a Might Hero . Than again it's probably better that way, because you'll have to choose between a powerful Hero and a powerful a faction.
Btw, just for general knowledge, Titans are constructs as well only with a touch of magic in them. Here is quote from the Colossi description: "Colossi are the most powerful creatures that can be built or summoned by the Wizards. They are created using the same basic method as golems, but on a much larger scale. Each Colossus also hosts a figment of the soul of his creator...". But as I said this is just for general knowledge, no need to implement them as well.
Sage
So with Master of Schools a Sage can Prepare an infinite number of spells? hmmm... But it will take lots of time to prepare all of them... and of course the mana costs will be enormous... ok I guess this will work well. The only thing to worry about is that you could choose when to use Master of Schools and when not (i.e. be able to prepare Ressurection and after that prepare another Light spell with only 50% mana cost as usual).
Warden
You know, if it was NOT for the dwarven rune mages, I would say:"great! incredible!! fantastic!!!  ". But do you think it's a good idea having two classes with so similiar class skills?
If you think it's ok than I agree that the basic skill should give one kind of potion, advanced and expert - increase the effect, normal skill abilities give three more potions, and ultimate ability - halve the resource cost(?).
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted November 01, 2006 04:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Sorcerer
Ok so the point is that whenever an enemy hero casts a destructive spell the Sorcerer has a chance to a counter-spell (with the exception of Armaggedon). It's easier for me to understand it that way.
Ok I see point about annoying gameplay. Well I guess Academy has enough magic-resistant creatures and the anti-magic spell to withstand the Sorcerer's attacks without the magic mirror.
I think Academy can manage - also, the Magic Mirror will work on the Sorcerer's normal spells, it's only in the case that an Academy Hero's spell triggers a Sorcerer Counter Spell, that the two negate, and the Magic Mirror absorbs the spell rather than reflect it.
Quote:
Alchemist
Yeah, you're right, it looks much better this way. The only thing I'm a bit worried about is the numbers. An Expert Alchemist on level 20 will get what? 3000gp per day? Isn't it a bit too much? And with your new experience system the heroes will get to high levels very fast. Maybe something along the lines of 100/250/500 will be better?
Other than that this class seems to solve most (if not all) of the Academy problems. Sounds strange that to become a powerful faction Academy needs a Might Hero. Than again it's probably better that way, because you'll have to choose between a powerful Hero and a powerful a faction.
Btw, just for general knowledge, Titans are constructs as well only with a touch of magic in them. Here is quote from the Colossi description: "Colossi are the most powerful creatures that can be built or summoned by the Wizards. They are created using the same basic method as golems, but on a much larger scale. Each Colossus also hosts a figment of the soul of his creator...". But as I said this is just for general knowledge, no need to implement them as well.
Yeah, I actually intentionally made the gold level fairly high - because some skills, like the Estates skill (lousy 250 Gold pr. day) simply become waste of time too quickly. I'd probably go with 250 / 500 / 750 Gold pr. day + 10 % per level (that's 2250 Gold per day at level 20, which is nice, but not incredible).
And about the Titans - I am awear of that part of their description, but I simply refuse to consider them as Animates or Constructs.  Well, I guess they are somewhere in between, but I think it's ok to leave them out.
Quote:
Sage
So with Master of Schools a Sage can Prepare an infinite number of spells? hmmm... But it will take lots of time to prepare all of them... and of course the mana costs will be enormous... ok I guess this will work well. The only thing to worry about is that you could choose when to use Master of Schools and when not (i.e. be able to prepare Ressurection and after that prepare another Light spell with only 50% mana cost as usual).
I see your point there. Hmmm ... Perhaps this skill should be modified, so that it only affects the number of spells, and not the preparation time or mana cost - in that way, there won't be any management. Or something else completely could take it's place.
Quote:
Warden
You know, if it was NOT for the dwarven rune mages, I would say:"great! incredible!! fantastic!!! ". But do you think it's a good idea having two classes with so similiar class skills?
If you think it's ok than I agree that the basic skill should give one kind of potion, advanced and expert - increase the effect, normal skill abilities give three more potions, and ultimate ability - halve the resource cost(?).
I don't see any problem with the two systems being very close. In fact, I think that's to some extent a good thing - it makes it easier to balance it, and it's easy to incorporate in terms of game mechanics.
As a specific suggestion, I'd say something like:
Basic Herbalism: Makes Healing Potions available to units. A Potion heals 3 x Knowledge of HP. Cost: 1 Gem.
Advanced Herbalism: Potion heals 6 x Knowledge of HP.
Expert Herbalism: Potion heals 9 x Knowledge of HP.
Lore Of Refreshment: Makes Potion of Refreshment available. This potion works as a Healing potion, but also grants another retaliation strike. Cost: 1 Gem + 1 Mercury.
Lore Of Energy: Makes Potion of Energy available. This potion works as a Healing potion, but also increases minimum ATB value of creature to 0.20. Cost: 1 Gem + 1 Sulphur.
Lore Of Health: Makes Potion of Health available. This potion works as a Healing potion, but also adds 10 % to maximum Health of target. Cost: 1 Gem + 1 Crystal.
Lore Of Regeneration: Makes Potion of Regeneration available. This potion works as a Healing potion, but also provides unit with Regeneration ability. Cost: 1 Gem + 1 Crystal + 1 Mercury + 1 Sulphur.
Costs of Potions are for first use in each combat. Should probably be more expensive with repeated uses.
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted November 01, 2006 05:22 PM |
|
|
Alchemist
OK 250/500/750 Gold per day + 10% per level sounds fair enough. Now it looks like a very attractive and not overpowered class. Great idea with the triple upgrade.
Sage
I would like to see something completely different, but since I can't think of anything right now I propose to make it like this:
Master Of Schools: Whenever the Sage has Prepared one spell from a certain Magical School, he can Prepare one more spell from this school (only one to avoid overpowering) without this counting against his limit of prepared spells.
Warden
Yes it looks much better, now to the questions:
- Can the Healing Potions ressurect fallen creatures in the stack?
- How long does the effect of all the "special" potions stay?
- Isn't Regeneration a little weak for an Ultimate Ability?
- I just realized that I don't know how this will work. What do you mean "Costs of Potions are for first use in each combat. Should probably be more expensive with repeated uses."? I thought you need to prepare (not Prepare) potions in town, somewhat like the miniartifacts...
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted November 01, 2006 07:07 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Sage
I would like to see something completely different, but since I can't think of anything right now I propose to make it like this:
Master Of Schools: Whenever the Sage has Prepared one spell from a certain Magical School, he can Prepare one more spell from this school (only one to avoid overpowering) without this counting against his limit of prepared spells.
Sounds reasonable. Might wanna add something to make it more interesting, but let's let it stay for now.
Quote:
Warden
Yes it looks much better, now to the questions:
- Can the Healing Potions ressurect fallen creatures in the stack?
- How long does the effect of all the "special" potions stay?
- Isn't Regeneration a little weak for an Ultimate Ability?
- I just realized that I don't know how this will work. What do you mean "Costs of Potions are for first use in each combat. Should probably be more expensive with repeated uses."? I thought you need to prepare (not Prepare) potions in town, somewhat like the miniartifacts...
a) Healing Potions do not resurrect.
b) For 1 turn per knowledge? Just a proposal ...
c) Regeneration WILL resurrect creatures, when HP grow above maximum (Hydra does this). That's why it could qualify for Ultimate. Apart from that, Regeneration is not that fantastic. Regenerated amount of HP could be 5 x Knowledge per turn.
I haven't put down the cost system completely. It could be like the Hero 4 Potion system, where you bought potions and brought them with you. That would qualify for a uni-prize system. Alternatively, it could be like the Rune magic. Each Rune is available only once per battle, unless you have a special skill that allows you to use it several times, but at Tripple cost in subsequent turns. There is no such ability in Healing yet, but it could be a part of the Ultimate ability. In that way, you can use each potion once at basic price and then subsequent turns at tripple price. I like this system better, because it reduces management (you won't have the trouple with bying them, and deciding how many to bring along, etc.), but of course, it's less intuitive. It would tie up with the way of the Rune system, however.
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted November 01, 2006 09:42 PM |
|
|
Warden (I can't believe there's only one left already)
-First of all I finally understand how the Herbalism will work. Both ways seem fine to me. If you prefer the second way than so be it, it has a good sense in it.
-If Regeneration can ressurect creatures than it's much better than I thought, but still not quite enough to make it Ultimate so the possibility of using a more than one potion per battle (even at tripple cost) would be a nice addition to the Ultimate Ability. Just to make sure: if you use the same potion for the third time do you pay trippled basic cost or "basic cost"*9?
-Well, considering you can use a potion only once its duration should be long, and yet it shouldn't be infinite. I guess 1 turn for knowledge would fine, although it's hard to be sure without some numbers, and the numbers vary greatly depending on when the hero acquired the Warden class...
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted November 01, 2006 10:30 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Warden (I can't believe there's only one left already)
-First of all I finally understand how the Herbalism will work. Both ways seem fine to me. If you prefer the second way than so be it, it has a good sense in it.
-If Regeneration can ressurect creatures than it's much better than I thought, but still not quite enough to make it Ultimate so the possibility of using a more than one potion per battle (even at tripple cost) would be a nice addition to the Ultimate Ability. Just to make sure: if you use the same potion for the third time do you pay trippled basic cost or "basic cost"*9?
-Well, considering you can use a potion only once its duration should be long, and yet it shouldn't be infinite. I guess 1 turn for knowledge would fine, although it's hard to be sure without some numbers, and the numbers vary greatly depending on when the hero acquired the Warden class...
Yes, you've really helped me nail this down effectively.
I just studied what is known about the Dwarven Rune magic, as a refference. It seems, that once the Rune is used, it is destroyed, and you will need to use a spell (on the adventure map?) to renew the Rune. I seem to recall that an ability would allow you to use a Rune again, at tripple cost. I can't find this information, and don't know whether you can use it more than twice, and if so, what the cost will be of the third use. 9 times normal price seems over the top.
In terms of this, it would make sense to have a spell (or spell-like ability) to let you refresh your potions after battle. The Ultimate Ability would let you use each potion ... twice? ... where the second usage would be at tripple cost.
Will try to make some updated figures to capture recent development.
EDIT > New figures are now up in post one. Also one final tweek to Master of Schools - think it turned out just fine!
|
|
Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted November 02, 2006 05:41 PM |
|
|
Nice, real nice.
But now that you edited your first post I've got another question :
What exactly does the first part of Master of Schools mean? What do you mean "School where he has the corresponding Magic skill"? Oh, wait... you mean if he has the Light Magic skill he becomes Master in it?
btw you better finish editing this post, now it looks like you don't know whether the Sage's class skill is called Quickening or Enchantment...
|
| |
|
|
