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| Thread: Advanced Classes - A specific suggestion for modification of Class System. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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KnightDougal
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted December 23, 2006 01:13 AM |
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What about Warboss (Settlement Hero) Subclasses?
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted December 23, 2006 01:15 AM |
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Quote:
What about Warboss (Settlement Hero) Subclasses?
2 things,
1. its your faction, so you can make it
2. is the Settlement in Heroes 5 currently? no, well then, no worries
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 23, 2006 01:59 AM |
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Planeswalker
- The elemental terrains in SOD were good only for your magic, so they're effects can't be used here, but graphics-wise it sounds very fitting.
There is nothing wrong with a fixed number for everyone (we already have skills and abilities that do that) it just that I felt that +5 is too much for a 2 lvl creature. If you feel that +3 will be to little in end-game, you can add a small initiative bonus (and remember that you have +1 speed AND a bonus to the summon elemental spell).
I think adding a penalty is good and if it'll make think is it worth to use the rift or not, it only makes the game more interesting. Of course you could reduce the penalty later-on, I think that adding it as a side effect of the ultimate ability is the best way to do it.
- It's a good idea regardless of the duration. Therefore I think that the duration should be used as a balance tool. After you decide what bonuses/penalty will the rift give, look at it all and think - is it overpowered? If it is - add a round limit, if it isn't leave it for the duration of the whole battle.
Summoner
- So I thought... I can't say I liked the Heroes 4 Summoning Skill. I don't know how much units a day it will give, but you should consider it as an even more powerful version of Necromancy because you don't have to fight to get those units. On that note I have to say that if Necromancy exists in the game there's no reason why Summoning shouldn't, it just has to be very very well balanced.
And one other thing - how do you know which kind of elements joins you?
- Yes, I see where you got the friend idea... I still can't say I like, but I can't think of anything better... Except maybe this... The hero gains the ability to use the elements of the dead stacks (friend or foe) and by sacrifcing their bodies he can call a stack of manifestations of the according element. The number of the manifestations won't exceed the number of dead units and ???XP/hero lvl. I'm not quite sure how to explain it properly, but I feel that there is something in here...
Elementalist
- OK about the sizes.
- That's better, but still there remains a slight problem with the implementation. What happens if the hero gets enforce elements first and the master abilities later? Maybe you could just make a prerequisite for that ability - at least one of the master abilities?
- Elemental Revenge: OK, Daystar and you conviced me that it's far from being underpowered.
Well that's it for now, I heard you're leaving on a holiday, but don't worry these questions will still be waiting for you when you come back.
Merry Christmas!
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KnightDougal
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted December 23, 2006 04:34 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
What about Warboss (Settlement Hero) Subclasses?
2 things,
1. its your faction, so you can make it
2. is the Settlement in Heroes 5 currently? no, well then, no worries
Well, the settlement is mine, but this thing is Alcibades's. So his work the settlement, tropical, stampede, stronghold, prison ang guild subclasses.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted December 23, 2006 06:18 AM |
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knight dougal, i think its purely optional if we have subclasses for our town. i don't want any for the stampede, or for the stronghold, because i think it would lose the feel of the towns. i spent along time getting those heroes intune with the workings of the town. frankly, i beleive people create or want to create subclasses for their towns because they feel that they haven't done the town to the best of their abilitys
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted December 23, 2006 11:21 AM |
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The Northern Alliance does not need multiple classes really. It needs a main skill, but not secondary ones.
Someone needs to make a list of all the factions we've made.
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KnightDougal
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted December 23, 2006 04:15 PM |
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Good work Alc! Carry on!
I think the settlement classes:
Normal class: Warboss
Might Subclass: Destroyer
Magic Subclass: Orcish Sorcerrer
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted December 23, 2006 06:04 PM |
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Quote:
frankly, i beleive people create or want to create subclasses for their towns because they feel that they haven't done the town to the best of their abilities
ahem
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted December 24, 2006 03:25 AM |
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i question for Alc or anyone else who can answer, in the picture with Markel on page 1, he has the 4 abilities, and only 1 line for specialication and racial
Question 1. Can you have four ablilites in your natural abilitie?
Quesion 2. Doesn't Markel need another specialicantion and racial bar?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 25, 2006 03:16 AM |
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Edited by Geny at 03:18, 25 Dec 2006.
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I can try and answer some of it:
1. I don't understand what do you mean by "natural abilities...
2. He probably does, only without the specialization.
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted December 25, 2006 03:38 AM |
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i mean like "Skeleton Archers" can you have 4 of them, includeing the ultimate one?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 25, 2006 03:59 AM |
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I'm still not completely sure, but if you mean the subclass skill then you can have 3 normal abilities and one ultimate ability in it, just like the basic race skill.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 28, 2006 09:21 AM |
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Quote:
i question for Alc or anyone else who can answer, in the picture with Markel on page 1, he has the 4 abilities, and only 1 line for specialication and racial
Question 1. Can you have four ablilites in your natural abilitie?
Quesion 2. Doesn't Markel need another specialicantion and racial bar?
You have a keen eye! You are very right about your points, and I will try to answer here:
1. There should be an extra line corresponding to abilities from your sub-class skill.
2. I did not include in on the image. If this should be implemented, the class and sub-class abilities should probably be moved from this leave to a new separate leave, because there are not space on this leave for another set of abilities.
3. Yes, you can have 4 abilities in your class skills (and sub-class skills). The 4th ability is always the "Ultimate Ability".
Geny > I will read your comments thoroughly later, and try to make a version 1.1 of the Conflux skills.
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What will happen now?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 30, 2006 02:57 AM |
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So, based on your comments Geny, here's a revised scheme. Just to ensure maximum confusion, the class called Elementalist in the first version is now Conjurer, whereas the class called Summoner now is Elementalist!
Modifications include minor changes to Plane Shifting skill and abilities, exchanging the problematic Summoning skill with the more conventional Elemental Draining skill, modifications of abilities tied to former-Summoner now-Elementalist class, minor changes to former-Elementalist now-Conjurer abilities plus modifications of new spell areas.
As to your comment about the Enforce Elements ability: The way I would see it work is like this: When you choose to take this ability, it'll work normally unless you haven't got any of the Master Of Elements abilities, in which case you will get the choice to choose any of them. If you gain Destructive Magic later, or start taking abilities in it, and you have taken the Enforce Elements ability, you will not be able to take the ability that you chose previously to replace the EE ability (alternatively, one could say that if you chose for instance Master of Storms in the first place, and the got DM and chose Master of Storms again, the first ability would change into the normal Enforce Elements ability ... but, I wouldn't have any problems with the other restriction).
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What will happen now?
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KnightDougal
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted December 30, 2006 09:49 AM |
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Okay. What about the Settleemnt subclasses?
Normal class: Warboss
Magic class shoud be Sorcerrer, Mght class Domnator.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 30, 2006 01:06 PM |
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Nice...
Strange as it may seem, I think I'm all out of questions... 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 30, 2006 01:47 PM |
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Quote:
Nice...
Strange as it may seem, I think I'm all out of questions...
Incredible! 
Quote:
i question for Alc or anyone else who can answer, in the picture with Markel on page 1, he has the 4 abilities, and only 1 line for specialication and racial
Question 1. Can you have four ablilites in your natural abilitie?
Quesion 2. Doesn't Markel need another specialicantion and racial bar?
To return to your question, Ted, I've tried to make a complete new layout for all the skill leaves in the Hero info menu. What I would do was add another leave, so that the leave including Skills + Specialization + Class Abilities is separated into to leaves: One concerning Skills, and one concerning Specialization + Class Abilities.
A suggestion for layout is shown below (top: Skill Screen; mid: Specialization + Class Abilities screen; bottom: Abilities screen). I would like to add a comment to the new Specialization + Class Abilities screen.
What is shown is in the top the Hero Specialization (+ a pane to include a text description of the spezialiation). Below this is the Class Skill pane, showing to the left the Skill Icon (in this case Necromancy) and to the right the 3 Class Abilities (Eternal Servitude, Skeleton Archers and Banshee Howl). Below this is shown the Ultimate Ability to the right (Howl of Terror) and the 4 small icons represent the required abilities for gaining this skill. In this case, Dark Ritual, Corrupted Soil and Silent Stalker is shown in full colour, because the Hero has acquired these skills. Power Of Speed is darkened, because the Hero still needs to obtain this skill. Likewise, the Ultimate Ability is darkened because the Hero hasn't obtained this skill yet. Below the class Skill is the Subclass skill pane. The Subclass skill slot is empty, because this hero has acquired no Subclass. Likewise, all the Subclas abilities show "?" because no Subclass is obtained.
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Lethos
Hired Hero
Lord of Poison
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posted December 30, 2006 02:33 PM |
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wow, very nice Alc, i completly see it now, i really think that this could quite possisbily (and should) be in Heroes 5, or even Heroes 6
 now all you needs an email, and a few hundred QPs
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Posion is your ally (i am Ted)
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted December 31, 2006 12:48 AM |
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While I am definitely an activist for the division of class groups in the game as you have suggested (might and magic), which removes the stereotypes a town may have for being more inclined to might or more inclined to magic, I have a few qualms with the idea.
Firstly, the preset "might and magic" skills and the 3 skills needed to specialise in a particular class, make the game more streamlined as to which skills are chosen. For example, once becoming a Demoniac, the new skill percentages are such that the players is precluded from learning any sort of skills that may boost his/her magical attributes. This wouldn't have been a problem in the old system since the experience curve is so high that there would be little chance to branch out due to the levels effectively being capped in the late 20s. With your new system for experience, it favours the development of more skills because of the slow curve, and the possibility to achieve 5 - 10 more levels with comparable experience.
The main problem is that most heroes are already inclined to become might or magic due to their initial skill percentages. E.g., the Knight has 58/90 percent invested in might skills (10 is taken for racial skill) making it difficult to specialise in magic - 3 highest % = 8+8+10 = 26 vs 3 highest % for might = 10+15+15 = 40.
With the class abilities, I think they are superfluous - the bonuses gained through adopting that advanced class is enough. While your experience curve does allow for an additional few level ups (in long games), in shorter games, there will hardly be time for the hero to develop the class skill, racial skill, their abilities, as well as the standard 6 abilities. This may instigate the players to refuse the specialisations in short games. In the first 16 or so levels, there is minimal difference between the experience curves, and around the mid-late teens is the usual maximum for a small - medium map.
I think what may be more fitting is to have two ultimate racial abilities, one centred on magic and the other on might. Going for two separate Ultimate Abilities in the one game is almost impossible and most certainly impractical.
As an alternative suggestions on how one could reach the might or magic class, it could be less restrictive if there were a pre-determined set of might/magic heroes already like in previous games, where the percentages are already divided into their sub-groups, and where specialising in 3 skills would provide further benefits. Otherwise I think it is too long-winded starting from scratch with a base hero.
However, it is a great original idea and many of the principles are very sound in my mind. Well done to Geny also for providing suggestions.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 31, 2006 09:35 PM |
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Yay! Thanks for the QP! (btw I love it how my name is the the only name in your post though this is alcibiades' idea)
I'm more used to asking questions than giving answers in this thread, but there's one thing I must comment on:
I don't really see a problem with the Cleric sub-class being more hard to achieve, a Knight is still a might class and he should (imo) get the might sub-class more easily.
The rest of the issues are too complicated for me, and besides, this is alcibiades' thread - let him break his head.
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