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| Thread: Advanced Classes - A specific suggestion for modification of Class System. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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KnightDougal
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted November 02, 2006 06:32 PM |
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I agree with Vlaad this feature- is must be with alernative heroes, hereos can fiht like ceratures, that 3 fheatures are realy needed for Heroes 5...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 02, 2006 08:37 PM |
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Oh no, not more questions. 
Just kidding. 
Quote:
Nice, real nice.
But now that you edited your first post I've got another question :
What exactly does the first part of Master of Schools mean? What do you mean "School where he has the corresponding Magic skill"? Oh, wait... you mean if he has the Light Magic skill he becomes Master in it?
Yes, it was supposed to meen that this Skill only applies to those schools, where you have the appropriate Magic Skill - Light Magic, Dark Magic, Summoning Magic and Destructive Magic.
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btw you better finish editing this post, now it looks like you don't know whether the Sage's class skill is called Quickening or Enchantment...
Yeah, there were a couple of mistakes. Have corrected what I found. Thanx.
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Geny 
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 02, 2006 09:08 PM |
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Well now it looks great, if I didn't take the role of the critic in this thread I would even say it's perfect . I'm really glad I could help and just so you know I really really enjoyed every minute (or is it every post?) of it.
And now for my final question... *drums*
WHY IS THERE NO QP ON THE TOP OF YOUR FIRST POST???
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 02, 2006 11:33 PM |
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Thanx man, can't reply you to that. But can say, that if I deserve one, you do as well, for your giant contribution to this work.
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Awra
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 28, 2006 11:06 PM |
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I don't know if anyone suggest this, but i have similar ida of advanced classes. First of ale as all of us know, the Ultimate Ability requires four skills. But there are also other abilities that requires also four skills.
For instance: Demon Lords for ulltimate ability requires Luck, Dark magic, Logistics and Attack, but for "secondary" ultimate ability taht means Mana Burnst s/he needs War Machines, Summoning Magic, Sorcery amd Destructive magic.
So maybe this division could be made by means of this "Primary" and "Secondary" Ultimate Abilities??
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted November 29, 2006 08:39 AM |
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I think the basic idea is execllent.
But, there are some classes that don't supposed two have Might and Magic.
I'll explain:
The wizrads-They supposed to be just magic. That's the whole idea of wizrads.
The knights-They supposed to be just might.
And knight cannot be also a cleric. S=
It's might be knight or cleric, in the subclass.
The idea is good, but the subclasses are already in the game, when you chose between the different races.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 29, 2006 10:58 AM |
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Quote:
But, there are some classes that don't supposed two have Might and Magic.
I'll explain:
The wizrads-They supposed to be just magic. That's the whole idea of wizrads.
The knights-They supposed to be just might.
And knight cannot be also a cleric. S=
It's might be knight or cleric, in the subclass.
I think that's beside the point. Of course, if we started from scratch, one might argue that some of the names of the Classes could have been chosen better, but we have to use the existing Classes as a starting point and then add Subclasses. And well, if you have a problem with Wizard having a might Subclass or Knight having a magic Subclass, then I'd say that's only a question of habits and embracing a new feature of the game with an open mind.
Of course some of the Classes are might and others are magic, and it'll seem more natural for them to develop into the same type of Subclass, but that goes for all 6 (7) classes, and if one accepts the idea of two branches, I really think one should ignore the problem with the names.
And to address your point, Awra: I had actually noticed the feature that you mention: That each Class has an Ultimate Ability in the class Skill, but also has another Ability that will require a number of specific Skills. One could certainly implement that feature!
I chose another approach for this system: Each Class requires 4 Skills for it's Ultimate Ability. I divided these into 2 groups of 2 Skills, and transfered these to each of the Subclasses. I then added 2 new Skills to each Subclass.
Thus, Knight requires Enlightenment, Logistics, Light Magic and Leadership in my suggestion (notice that I actually changed some of the pre-requisits from the excisting ones in the game!). These divide into two groups: Enlightenment + Light Magic (magic), which transfer to Cleric; and Logistics + Leadership (might), which transfer to Lord. The other two skills for Sub-Ultimate Abilities were then chosen from the ones not used for the Ultimate Ability - thus, Cleric got Luck + Dark Magic; and Lord got War Machines + Defence.
Also notice that for *all* magic Subclasses, the two types of magic related to the faction (Light Magic and Dark Magic for Haven) occur in their Sub-ultimate Ability requirements. One could actually make a similar system for the Might Skills, to tie each faction to two Skills from the group Attack, Deffence, Luck, Leadership (corresponding to the four schools of magic for the Magic skills - thus, Haven could be said to tie to Leadership and Defence) - I did not systemize that part as yet, however, but might look into it.
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awra
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 29, 2006 08:50 PM |
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OK I can understand this.
But again (I am nasty creature, I know )this division on Ultimate sub-abilities made in the original game is also conected with the division on the more magic and more might hero. Coming back to the our poor demon Lords, they requires much more "magic skills" to get the Mana Burnst Ability. And much more "might skills" are required for the Urgash Call Ability. I don't want to make from this disscusion the "honour case".
I'll say that it is your idea, which I really like. And I'm wainting for the ideas for the Runemage
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KnightDougal
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted November 29, 2006 09:23 PM |
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I wating for the ideas of the warboss.
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted November 29, 2006 10:26 PM |
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Quote:
I wating for the ideas of the warboss.
warboss? i am going with your Settlement or Neutral Creatures and Factions
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 30, 2006 12:30 AM |
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Version 1.0 of Dwarven Skills and Subskills are here. Raw and unedited, the Transformer skills comes straight from my not always descriminating mind. Let me know what you think!
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KnightDougal
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted November 30, 2006 06:40 PM |
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Quote:
Version 1.0 of Dwarven Skills and Subskills are here. Raw and unedited, the Transformer skills comes straight from my not always descriminating mind. Let me know what you think!
What about Settlement? Warboss's subclasses.
My ideas:
Basic Class
Warboss
Avilbe Advenced Subclasses:
Sorcerrer
Mek
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted November 30, 2006 06:57 PM |
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Well, here we go again...
First of all, I don't have the HoF expansion so I don't really understand the Ashan dwarves and am not familiar with their tactics.
Now to the questuon part:
The "Basic" Ultimate Ability is made of 3 Might Skills and 1 Magic Skill which is a bit problematic for your system. But I don't think it means that you need to add Enlightment (Magic Skill) to your Might Ultimate or Luck and Logistics (TWO Might Skills) to your Magic Ultimate.OK so the Luck skill goes well with the Transformer, but still... (btw I have something to say about this, see the Transformer part).
Defender
I know you made before the Fortress was even announced and that explaines some things:
- Offensive Retaliation is now replaced by the Preparation ability (Defense).
- I always thought that luck could apply to all strikes including retaliation, doesn't it?
Transformer
Sorry, but when I hear this name I think abou robots I think something along the lines of Chaneller or maybe Spell-Breaker would be better.
-Now to the main problem - the resistance. Let's add up everything (correct me if I'm wrong): Magic Resistance + Dwarven Luck + Expert Absorption = (15%{MR} + 30%{EA})*2(DL)= 90% throw in boots of magic resistance and you get magic immunity! And if that's not all your hero is an Expert Destructive Mage who can cast Armageddon!! But wait, there's more - with all those absorbing abilities your troops will actually benefit greatly from that Armageddon!!! ..... need I say more?
- Ok, let's say you reduce the resistance percentage. Still the abilities are very dangerous and in fact that makes them quite useless. I mean, if I was fighting a Transformer there's no way in hell I would cast Destructive against his troops (even without the absorbyion skill it's at least 30% resistance).
Well, you wanted feedback...
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted November 30, 2006 08:07 PM |
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Certainly, I wanted feedback - good as well as bad. That's part of the game.
Quote:
First of all, I don't have the HoF expansion so I don't really understand the Ashan dwarves and am not familiar with their tactics.
Haven't played HoF yet, so neither am I.
Quote:
The "Basic" Ultimate Ability is made of 3 Might Skills and 1 Magic Skill which is a bit problematic for your system. But I don't think it means that you need to add Enlightment (Magic Skill) to your Might Ultimate or Luck and Logistics (TWO Might Skills) to your Magic Ultimate.OK so the Luck skill goes well with the Transformer, but still... (btw I have something to say about this, see the Transformer part).
I deffinitely agree with your point here. The problem is, that if I want to transfer two Skills from the main class to the Magic Class, and I want to add Luck in the same time (to have Dwarven Luck), there's no way to avoid this. I actually found this solution to be ok, because both Dwarven Luck and Swift Mind will be usefull for a caster, but alternatively, I would have to either a) exclude Luck (bad solution), or b) change requirements for Runemage UA, which I have no problem with doing (I did that for several other classes as well)! I just wanted to stay as true to the origin as possible.
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Defender
I know you made before the Fortress was even announced and that explaines some things:
- Offensive Retaliation is now replaced by the Preparation ability (Defense).
- I always thought that luck could apply to all strikes including retaliation, doesn't it?
I realized the part about Offensive Retaliation as well today! And you might be right about the luck thing - I'm not too sure, though, but think it's right. Might make Morale bonus apply instead?
Quote:
Transformer
Sorry, but when I hear this name I think abou robots I think something along the lines of Chaneller or maybe Spell-Breaker would be better.
-Now to the main problem - the resistance. Let's add up everything (correct me if I'm wrong): Magic Resistance + Dwarven Luck + Expert Absorption = (15%{MR} + 30%{EA})*2(DL)= 90% throw in boots of magic resistance and you get magic immunity! And if that's not all your hero is an Expert Destructive Mage who can cast Armageddon!! But wait, there's more - with all those absorbing abilities your troops will actually benefit greatly from that Armageddon!!! ..... need I say more?
- Ok, let's say you reduce the resistance percentage. Still the abilities are very dangerous and in fact that makes them quite useless. I mean, if I was fighting a Transformer there's no way in hell I would cast Destructive against his troops (even without the absorbyion skill it's at least 30% resistance).
Spell-Breaker is not a bad name. I couldn't come up with a decent name, so just posted this as a start.
As for Dwarven Luck - I just assumed it added another 15 % to the basic Magic Resistance Bonus - that was my assumption, I might be wrong, or one could change the skill. In that case, the bonus would be 30 % + 15 % x 2 = 60 %, which is a lot (one might go down to 5 %, 10 %, 15 %, but my experience from Heroes 3 tells me this is too low to have any importance. I did not consider the boots!
As for the Armageddon case, you have a very good point! One should deffinitely throw in a condition that states that this only counts for spells cast by the enemy hero, to avoid abuse!
And thanx for the help, as always.
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted November 30, 2006 09:02 PM |
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Quote:
Well, here we go again...
First of all, I don't have the HoF expansion so I don't really understand the Ashan dwarves and am not familiar with their tactics.:
I have played HoF, its quite good, the Dwarves are very good at winnig when the odds are aginst them, why? beacuse if you do a rune it helps alot, eg if your a bit to far from a unit, theres a rune that doubles your movement for 1 turn, how about that?
Quote:
Transformer
Sorry, but when I hear this name I think abou robots
Transformers! Robots in Diguise!
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 01, 2006 01:35 PM |
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Always glad to help, besides I'm enjoying this to much to stop
Skills
I see your point. I can't say I like it, but it is a logical solution so it can stay this way as far as I'm conserned (unless of course you want to change the original requirements).
I'm still not sure, however, about the Enlightment in Might Class - is it just for balancing? because this kind of balancing doesn't make sense to me... I mean you couldn't avoid inserting might skills to the magic class, but you could avoid inserting Enlightment to the might class. Or do you think that Attack (which is the only alternative) won't go well with the Defender class? IMO Attack skill, which concentrates on tactics and organization, will go better with the Defender than the all-out magic skill - Enlightment.
Defender
-Morale bonus instead of Luck bonus sounds like a good idea: it gives an option to create a fast counter attack or to recharge your retalition.
-I'm also trying to think about a new ability instead of Offensive Retaliation, but the only thing I could think of is something like the "fire shield" ability, only dealing normal damage, and I don't really like that.
Spell-Breaker(until you find a better name)
I myself am not sure how the Dwarven Luck works, will ask Sfidanza...
But even if the overall resistance be 60% as you suggest, you still haven't answered the last part of my previous post: are all those abilities really usefull? Do you think that the enemy hero will be stupid enough to cast Destructive spells on a 60% resistant units? especially if those units will benefit from resisting them?
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KnightDougal
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted December 01, 2006 02:37 PM |
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Okay, what about Warboss (Settlement hero class) subclasses?
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 01, 2006 03:44 PM |
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Quote:
Skills
I see your point. I can't say I like it, but it is a logical solution so it can stay this way as far as I'm conserned (unless of course you want to change the original requirements).
I'm still not sure, however, about the Enlightment in Might Class - is it just for balancing? because this kind of balancing doesn't make sense to me... I mean you couldn't avoid inserting might skills to the magic class, but you could avoid inserting Enlightment to the might class. Or do you think that Attack (which is the only alternative) won't go well with the Defender class? IMO Attack skill, which concentrates on tactics and organization, will go better with the Defender than the all-out magic skill - Enlightment.
I had to include Enlightenment, because Enlightenment > Mentor is a prerequisite to learn Leadership > Empathy. Thus, I had to include either both or none. Furthermore, since Leadership > Empathy is a prerequisite for Attack > Retribution, I could not include Attack instead of either of them - in fact, Retribution is for the Rune-mage the "second" Ultimate Ability that Awra mentioned in his post, which might make it reasonable to exclude Attack and all Skills in that branch from this tree.
Basically, we have three groups of skills:
* Defense, Destructive Magic, Logistics, War Machines > Absolute Protection (Ultimate Ability)
* Attack, Summoning Magic, Enlightenment, Leadership > Retribution ("second" or complimentary Ultimate Ability)
* Dark Magic, Light Magic, Luck, Sorcery > Not yet used.
Thus, if we wanted to make 2 Subclass Ultimate Abilities by combining 2 Skills from the first group with 2 from the last, we'd end up with:
* Defense, Destructive Magic, Logistics, War Machines > Absolute Protection (Ultimate Ability)
* Defense, War Machines, Luck, Dark Magic > Defender's Punishment (Might Subclass Ultimate Ability)
* Destructive Magic, Light Magic, Logistics, Sorcery > Energy Healing (Magic Subclass Ultimate Ability)
* Attack, Summoning Magic, Enlightenment, Leadership > Retribution (complimentary Ultimate Ability)
I know this is very theoretical, but basically, in this way, all 12 skills are used. I might try to look into systemizing this for all the classes - just for the fun of it.
Defender
-Morale bonus instead of Luck bonus sounds like a good idea: it gives an option to create a fast counter attack or to recharge your retalition.
-I'm also trying to think about a new ability instead of Offensive Retaliation, but the only thing I could think of is something like the "fire shield" ability, only dealing normal damage, and I don't really like that.
I'll look into that in the weekend then - or whenever I have time.
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Spell-Breaker(until you find a better name)
I myself am not sure how the Dwarven Luck works, will ask Sfidanza...
But even if the overall resistance be 60% as you suggest, you still haven't answered the last part of my previous post: are all those abilities really usefull? Do you think that the enemy hero will be stupid enough to cast Destructive spells on a 60% resistant units? especially if those units will benefit from resisting them?
Ironically, I can see your point: In order for this skill to have any use, the percentage should not be too high! Of course, even blocking the enemy from using Destructive is nice, but it doesn't add much to gameplay. The trick is to hit the barrier where the enemy might wanna chance it, and then every now and then it turns into something cool for you instead.
However, I also think the current abilities are a bit one-sided. I might look into something that'll make it a bit more varied, and then possibly make the weapon thing and the armour thing into one skill.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 01, 2006 08:12 PM |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted December 01, 2006 09:18 PM |
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Quote:
And I'll be waiting for new ideas that I can criticize (it's really fun, you should try it sometime).
Oh, I do that all the time. If you look into some of the other posts on the board, you will notice that I'm not always the most popular person for my views.
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Oh, and there is an answer about the Dwarven Luck ability in the Manual thread:
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=19045&pagenumber=4
Interesting. That's less powerfull than simply doubling up (for instance, a 30 % resistance will turn into 51 % resistance with Dwarven Luck). Anyway, here's version 1.01 of the Defender and Transformer-now-Spell-Breaker, with some serious changes to Abilities. Tell me if this is better.
Some of these Skills really need some better names (Absorption, Fortification - but I'm running low on words here), so please help me out!
F.Y.I.:
* Resistance (15 %) + Dwarven Luck = 28 % Chance to resist.
* Resistance + Strong Mind (25 %) + Dwarven Luck = 44 % Chance to resist.
* Resistance + Strong Mind + Boots (35 %) + Dwarven Luck = 58 % Chance to resist.
Notice that with the 75 % chance, this still only meens 43.5 % chance to Channel energy.
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