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| Thread: Dwarves are creatures, not a race! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT» |
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 07:09 PM |
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Dwarves are creatures, not a race!
Am I the only one who thinks that the Dwarf should be just a creature in town like Sylvan and not a race?
The Dwarves are not interesting creatures. They are small men, that's it. And they don't have any magical abilities.
There's a name for a magical Dwarf: Elf. look at the dictionary, that's the meaning.
The only creature in H5 that is actually a Dwarf is the Defender or the Shieldguard. That's what Dwarf suppose to be: Defensive little and fatty man.
The Dwarf is not a rider (Bear Rider), he has nothing with mind control (Brawler), he doesn't teleport (Thane/Warlord), he is not a caster (Rune Priest). He might be Spearwielder...
And I have a huge problem with the Thane/Warlord. It's suppose to be a Dwarf, right? Let's get back to what is a Dwarf: A small short man. The Thane/Warlord is a huge man! He looks like a Giant, not a Dwarf! And Dwarf don't control lightings, they don't have immunity to those things.
Again, the original stories of the Dwarf tell that he lives in the Forest. Yes, there's snow in the forest sometimes, but the Dwarves don't live in the cold north where there's always snow.
The Dwarves don't live in caves near Lava, they live in huts (Made of WOOD not stone!), in the forests, under the trees.
And the heroes of the Dwarves in H5 ride on huge mammoth. Isn't it a little bit strange that they will ride on an animal that they can't climb on? That they will crash if they fall?
It seems to me that every thing about the Dwarves is gone in H5.
What wrong to the original, old and good Dwarves?
Like these:
 
My opinion has changed since I wrote this post.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 24, 2007 07:19 PM |
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If I remember correctly you said somewhere that you've read "The Hobbit". If so, how dare you say that the dwarfs are less of race than elves or orcs??
About the Thane, I maybe wrong, but I don't remember seeing the word "dwarf" in his description.
And about the forest dwelling creatures - that would be the gnomes (even if in Hebrew gnomes and dwarves have the same name).
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GenieLord
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Legendary Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 07:23 PM |
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Quote:
If I remember correctly you said somewhere that you've read "The Hobbit". If so, how dare you say that the dwarfs are less of race than elves or orcs??
About the Thane, I maybe wrong, but I don't remember seeing the word "dwarf" in his description.
And about the forest dwelling creatures - that would be the gnomes (even if in Hebrew gnomes and dwarves have the same name).
Reminder: The Dwarves don't do magics in "The Hobbit" and they don't do magics there.
Yes, they are less race, becuase they all do the same thing. In the language of HOMM, they are all defenders.
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kiler
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 24, 2007 07:25 PM |
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Well for me personally, I would have to say that the HOMM2 Dwarves are the best, and in my opinion HOMM2 being the best out of the series.
I think that with the newer HOMM's coming out, some of the creature's got worse and worse.
Just my 2 cents 
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 24, 2007 07:32 PM |
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You can't judge about magic from "The Hobbit". In Tolkien's world only the mages and a handful of high elves could do magic.
You say that the dwarves aren't suited for being berzerkers? And what do you think Thorin was in the battle of the 5 armies near the Lonely Mountain? Yes, he wasn't fighting with his fists, but he was no defender that's for sure.
And about the bears... well ok that's new, but there's also no info about dark elves riding a lizard, for example.
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 08:46 PM |
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Hmm... Well Dwarfs lives in mountains in LOTR... and well LOTR is like the bible for fantasy, so nival made it snowy mountains... no problem for me...
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted January 24, 2007 08:48 PM |
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dwarves...
pray tell WHY are dwarves not (worthy of the faction that defines them as) a race?
whatever the original version of myth and lore about dwarves was, in modern fantasy they are one of the main races and as many examples have shown (WarCraft, Warhammer, etc) they can be quite interesting culture-wise (and i believe Tolkien was the first to change them as well) and i for one am rather fond of the Fortress faction... complete with Thanes, Bears and of course... Runes! ...the only thing bugging me is the dragons... lets not go down H3dragonverse
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 08:51 PM |
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Edited by Shauku83 at 23:12, 24 Jan 2007.
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Genie Lord, I understand that you would prefer dwarves as a single creature. But they have just as much right to be a race as the others. Dwarves have a long and rich history dating back to the origins of fantasy literature (Tolkien). After those time dwarves have "evolved" if I may say so, and are many times linked to atleast some kind of form of magic. In Forgotten Realms they can summon Earth Elementals for example.
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Shadelight
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 24, 2007 10:21 PM |
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correct me if I'm wrong, but even in old D&D dwarves were priests....I might be just a little bit loopy here, but I could of sworn priests cast magic.....wow guess dwarves dont know magic huh?
And.....saying LOTR is canon for all fantasy settings is what we call fanboyism.....try not to make definitive statements like that.
As for old Might&Magic games.....oh wait a sec, dwarves could be priests there too!...and they're even older then and were the basis for the Heroes games.
Trust me, just embrace the new fortress faction. Change can be a good thing you know. ^_^
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relentless
Known Hero
Shadow Elemental
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posted January 24, 2007 10:36 PM |
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As far as I remember the Tolkin "Dwarfs" were loosly based on Norse mythology. They lived in the mountains, they were great blacksmiths and weaponmakers and have a lot in common with the vikings.
The dwarfs are a race. Accept it. I think there are a too many dwarfs in the Fortress, but what the hell... I'd live with it. The Haven had 6 main race units.
Better to have 5 dwarfs than 0.
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Shauku83
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted January 24, 2007 11:11 PM |
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Quote:
And.....saying LOTR is canon for all fantasy settings is what we call fanboyism.....try not to make definitive statements like that.
Well, I'll add the word "literature" behind the word fantasy, as it is clearer then. Of course it is not the source of all fantasy settings which have so much from all and everything. But as for Tolkiens place in fantasy literature, it's not fanboyism to give credit where it is due.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 25, 2007 02:09 AM |
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Quote:
The Dwarves are not interesting creatures. They are small men, that's it. And they don't have any magical abilities.
There's a name for a magical Dwarf: Elf. look at the dictionary, that's the meaning.
The Dwarf is not a rider (Bear Rider), he has nothing with mind control (Brawler), he doesn't teleport (Thane/Warlord), he is not a caster (Rune Priest). He might be Spearwielder...
Again, the original stories of the Dwarf tell that he lives in the Forest. Yes, there's snow in the forest sometimes, but the Dwarves don't live in the cold north where there's always snow.
The Dwarves don't live in caves near Lava, they live in huts (Made of WOOD not stone!), in the forests, under the trees.
And the heroes of the Dwarves in H5 ride on huge mammoth. Isn't it a little bit strange that they will ride on an animal that they can't climb on? That they will crash if they fall?
Course they are. If you don't like them that's your opinion. You can't say they cannot be riders(first of all why would you?), someone focused on their martial skills and consumed with rage as a brawler could at least have a resistance to mind spells because they are operating on instinct and you could not exclude them being priests. Ever heard of D&D? Dwarves are not only in warcraft and lotr. About teleporting, ok that's a cheap way to acquire a flying unit but so what? It's an interesting and useful unit. The dwarves don't live in caves?? That's a joke. Most stories(excluding their use in modern games) picture them under the ground. Even in H3 where they were part of rampart. What's your problem with the mammoth? Can you jump on a high horse's back with a stride? Ever heard of elephants as mounts? And I'm talking about real life.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 25, 2007 02:32 AM |
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"And the heroes of the Dwarves in H5 ride on huge mammoth. Isn't it a little bit strange that they will ride on an animal that they can't climb on? That they will crash if they fall?"
Actualy, they dont ride on huge mammoth, they ride on mini mammoth. (academy elephant is bigger than it)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 25, 2007 02:37 AM |
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I don't see what one has to do with the other. Orcs are still good candidates for returning and thunderbirds will surely be with them. Unless the nagas have something to say about it! 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 25, 2007 02:50 AM |
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Quote:
Dont you get it?
Thunderbirds = Thane (same powers)
Venom Spawn = Wyvern (Same powers)
Rakshasa = Naga
If one of these creatures are in, then the others won't be in it.
Don't worry I do. But Nival also made old creatures with a new set of abilities and will. Venom spawn has absolutely nothing to do with a wyvern but you can be sure that either the thunderbird or the naga will return. It's all in the implementation and it won't be the same.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 25, 2007 02:53 AM |
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My only complaint is that they wasted good amount of abilities on renegades 
Im sure naga will be back, but more likely with 2 arms only 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 25, 2007 03:03 AM |
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I'd really rather NOT see that...Never liked them much this way.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 25, 2007 03:16 AM |
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They were one of the few things I did not like in warcraft. Just compare them to a naga queen from H3...And the nagas were mentioned in the history of creation as following Shalassa the dragon of water. In HoF's files there is a naga building which hints that they are next.
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted January 25, 2007 07:31 AM |
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Now i must agree and disagree here! The dwarves are great race, so what they got a big giant dwarf, he got hair everywhere = Dwarf!  and they got ladders for the mammoth thing...
and well The nagas cannot fill a whole town out ... Nope minium 2 creatures, a big sword wielding psyco and a naga with 6 crossbows... (that would be evil)
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 25, 2007 10:25 AM |
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Quote:
And I have a huge problem with the Thane/Warlord. It's suppose to be a Dwarf, right? Let's get back to what is a Dwarf: A small short man. The Thane/Warlord is a huge man! He looks like a Giant, not a Dwarf! And Dwarf don't control lightings, they don't have immunity to those things.
Actually, it is my strong belief that the Thane is not a Dwarf, but a seperate species all together. This is bast first on the properties of the Thane:
- The Thane stands some 9 feet tall.
- The Thane teleports.
- The Thane has Lightning strike.
But also on the unit descriptions. If you read the descriptions of each unit, it says:
Defender: "Comprising the backbone of any Dwarven army ..." - Ok, so this is a Dwarf.
Skirmisher: "Spearwielders are one of the Dwarven army's trump-cards. ..." - Another Dwarf.
Bear Rider: "No army can do without cavalry, whose object is to quickly reach and engage the enemy units. The Dwarves have tamed fierce bears for this ..." Ok, again obviously, we have a Dwarf on the back.
Brawler: There is no mention of Dwarf in this creatures description, which is weird. Notice that according to this picture, the Brawlers stands between the Dwarf and the Thane in size:
The game seems a bit vague on the exact nature of these units.
Rune Priest: "The Rune Priests are a special caste among the Dwarves ..." - Obviously, this is a Dwarf.
Thane: "Thanes are not only great warriors, but also possess magical abilities. A Thane can teleport himself into his enemies' ranks, slaughtering them by brute strength with his axe. In addition, his axe fires off lightning bolts, striking nearby enemies. Thanes are immune to the element of Lightning." - This contains no mention of these being Dwarves. It might just be coincidence, or it might meen their actually a race for themselves.
Warlord: "The Warlords are Thanes who have dedicated their lives to mastering the power of mountain storms. Once per combat, a Warlord can strike a selected target and its neighbouring units with a powerful lightning bolt." - Again, the only thing we get to hear is that the Warlords are Thanes, not Dwarves.
It might all just be conincidence, but ... it just strikes me that maybe it's not.
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