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| Thread: Necromancy Calculator (with dark energy) |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 08, 2008 12:30 AM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 09:04, 10 Oct 2008.
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Niggard Tactic
I have just noticed that the Necro alternative upgrades have different Power Rating therefor they have Diffrent DE cost:
Skeleton Archer PowerPoints = 84 DEc = 3,36
Skeleton Warrior PowerPoints = 85 DEc = 3,4
Plague Zombie PowerPoints = 150 DEc = 6
Rot Zombie PowerPoints = 145 DEc = 5,8
Spectre PowerPoints = 327 DEc = 13,08
Poltergeist PowerPoints = 331 DEc = 13,24
Vampire Lord PowerPoints = 739 DEc = 29,56
Vampire Prince PowerPoints = 757 DEc = 30,28
Archlich PowerPoints = 1539 DEc = 61,56
Lich Master PowerPoints = 1541 DEc = 61,64
Wraith PowerPoints = 2588 DEc = 103,52
Banshee PowerPoints = 2449 DEc = 97,96
Spectral Dragon PowerPoints = 3905 DEc = 156,2
Ghost Dragon PowerPoints = 3872 DEc = 154,88
The Greatest disproportion between raising cost is for Tier 6 5,56.
So because DE points are precious and they regenarate weekly so you when you can raise the same amount of undead but DE cheaper(you can always retrain for little gold amount and gold is growing on daily basis). Is it worth it hmm if you raise wisely you can have maybe 1 or 2 Wraiths Banshes 5-6 Vampires or 2-4 Liches in early mid game and as your DE pool rises the advantages of efficient rising rises
So Niggard Tactic (Lower DE spending Higher Gold Spending) Yes for Large Maps Late game
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zhengman
Tavern Dweller
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posted October 08, 2008 02:36 AM |
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Quote:
I have just noticed that the Necro alternative upgrades have different Power Rating therefor they have Diffrent DE cost:
Skeleton Archer PowerPoints = 84 DEc = 3,36
Skeleton Warrior PowerPoints = 85 DEc = 3,4
Plague Zombie PowerPoints = 150 DEc = 6
Rot Zombie PowerPoints = 145 DEc = 5,8
Spectre PowerPoints = 327 DEc = 13,08
Poltergeist PowerPoints = 331 DEc = 13,24
Vampire Lord PowerPoints = 739 DEc = 29,56
Vampire Prince PowerPoints = 757 DEc = 30,28
Archlich PowerPoints = 1539 DEc = 61,56
Lich Master PowerPoints = 1541 DEc = 61,64
Wraith PowerPoints = 2588 DEc = 103,52
Banshee PowerPoints = 2449 DEc = 97,96
Spectral Dragon PowerPoints = 3905 DEc = 156,2
Ghost Dragon PowerPoints = 3872 DEc = 154,88
The Greatest disproportion between raising cost is for Tier 6 5,56.
So because DE points are precious and they regenarate weekly so you when you can raise the same amount of undead but DE cheaper(you can always retrain for little gold amount and gold is growing on daily basis). Is it worth it hmm if you raise wisely you can have maybe 1 or 2 Wraiths Banshes 5-6 Vampires or 2-4 Liches in early mid game and as your DE pool rises the advantages of efficient rising rises
So Niggard Tactic(Lower DE spending Higher Gold Spending) Yes for Large Maps Late game
erm...the tactic makes sense, but why is it called "niggard"?
however, in early game or for small/medium maps, it may perhaps be better to just raise the upgrade you want, disregarding DE cost, since you are rushing and dont have time to go back to your castle to reupgrade.
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 08, 2008 07:21 AM |
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Why niggard i wanted to choose an translation of word of man who counts every peny, coin, and don't like spending money,in my language to english an from the results MISER; NIGGARD; PIKER; SKINFLINT) i choose, this maybe not so good.
Yes this tactic it only make sense when you have more then 600-700 DE points and with your main hero there is an supportive one near. The extra one is picking up resources and colecting raisied by main hero unupgraded dead or bad upgraded and transports them to another hero who is in vicinity of main town. And thats when it can work properly
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 08, 2008 11:51 AM |
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Frankly this thing looks like splitting hairs to me, only wraith vs banshee seems to be worth the trouble.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 08, 2008 02:08 PM |
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Quote:
The Greatest disproportion between raising cost is for Tier 6 5,56.
Actually you should work in PERCENTAGES.
But the Tier 6 difference is still the biggest (5%), follow by tier 2 I think (3%).
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 08, 2008 11:22 PM |
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Quote:
Frankly this thing looks like splitting hairs to me, only wraith vs banshee seems to be worth the trouble.
Yes the value information depends on howe big map you play. The bigger the map the more DE is for raising the more you can save another battle. so it is notingh new for you but other can make a muse of it
Quote:
Actually you should work in PERCENTAGES.
But the Tier 6 difference is still the biggest (5%), follow by tier 2 I think (3%).
Yes i was thinking about that but in the end pure numbers are important.
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broadstrong
Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
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posted October 10, 2008 03:16 PM |
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Amulet of Necromancy
I recently tested a battle to see if the amulet increased necromancy (I had actually played the battle previously, but I replay the battle just to test out the amulet) and the results are as below:-
AI hero (Ingvar): 48 battleragers, 21 rune patriarchs, 12 flame lords (plus other troops that are immaterial in my testing, you will know why)
My necromancer (Lucretia) has expert necromancy + 4(!) pillars of bones, that adds up to 80% already. She also has the amulet equipped (I even un-equipped the cloak of death's shadow and ring of the unrepentant just to be very sure that any necromancy changes, if any, is due to the amulet ONLY). After winning the battle, the raise creature dialog showed the following available for raising.
(A)84 skeleton archers (from harpooners),
(B)56 ghosts (from whitebear riders),
(C)37 vampire lords,
(D)20 arch liches,
(E)12 wraiths.
(lava dragons cannot be raised as undead)
Using the fan manual formula (HP raised = HP killed x necromancy %) and taking necromancy as 0.8 (80%) and ignoring vitality effect for all creatures, I get the following respectively for the undead creatures to be raised:-
(A)(84 x 10 x 0.8)/5 = 134 (becomes 84 as there are only 84 harpooners)
(B)(56 x 30 x 0.8)/16 = 84(becomes 56 as there are only 56 whitebear riders)
(C)(48 x 30 x 0.8)/35 = 32
(D)(21 x 60 x 0.8)/55 = 18
(E)(12 x 120 x 0.8)/100 = 11
which does not tally with the actual raised creatures.
However, if I used 90% necromancy instead (extra 10% from the amulet, where else?), and replace 0.8 with 0.9, I get
A)(84 x 10 x 0.9)/5 = 151 (becomes 84 as there are only 84 harpooners)
(B)(56 x 30 x 0.9)/16 = 94(becomes 56 as there are only 56 whitebear riders)
(C)(48 x 30 x 0.9)/35 = 37
(D)(21 x 60 x 0.9)/55 = 20
(E)(12 x 120 x 0.9)/100 = 12
which tallies very well with the actual raised creatures!
Hence this shows that:-
Amulet of necromancy indeed increases necromancy skill by 10% as stated in-game, it also has a hidden effect of reducing rising cost by 10%.
As an example, in my game, my hero only needs to spend 55 DE for each lich master raised, 26 DE for very vampire lord raised and so on.
What is even better is that, when you change from base upgrade (which is calculated by default) to alternate upgrade, the maximum number of that tier of creatures remains unchanged! This means that the calculation only depends on the HP of the base upgrades of the necropolis units.
Considering most alternate upgrades have more hit points, this means that the player will not have fewer creatures to raise simply because of choosing a higher-HP unit to raise.
My result may be inconclusive, please test if necessary, and if indeed the amulet does serve two purposes, the fan manual will need to update that (especially the racial skill section on necromancy)
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The queer part of the Carcity/Broadstrong/Zamfir[
/b] threeway, equipped with sailing, summon allies, spatial travel and supermover.
Many current projects on hand.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted October 10, 2008 03:21 PM |
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Good to knowQuote:
What is even better is that, when you change from base upgrade (which is calculated by default) to alternate upgrade, the maximum number of that tier of creatures remains unchanged! This means that the calculation only depends on the HP of the base upgrades of the necropolis units.
This is very interesting... now, if the DE cost would also be based on the power of the normal upgrade even for alternate upgrades, it would be fair (the Banshee is "overpowered" at raising )
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broadstrong
Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
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posted October 10, 2008 03:41 PM |
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Quote:
This is very interesting... now, if the DE cost would also be based on the power of the normal upgrade even for alternate upgrades, it would be fair (the Banshee is "overpowered" at raising)
@Asheera,
Sadly, no, banshees still cost less DE (97 normally, or 88 with the amulet), but then again, the main reason for me raising banshees is the fewer DE, its death wail is not much better after v3.1...I would rather take the wraith...
If DE cost is also based on base upgrade, I can imagine vampire princes being even more "overpowered" by being raised with fewer DE (their 1 DE extra than that of vampire lords mean nothing in battles where players can easily raise 50 to 60 vampires or their upgrades).
Seriously, if you can, do test it yourself also...anything to change in fan manual should be based on confirmed, consistent results from many testers, and not just a small test from 1 or 2 players...
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The queer part of the Carcity/Broadstrong/Zamfir[
/b] threeway, equipped with sailing, summon allies, spatial travel and supermover.
Many current projects on hand.
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted October 10, 2008 09:18 PM |
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Edited by Nebdar at 21:19, 10 Oct 2008.
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thanks for discovery broadstrong
I remember that was to desriptions in my mind the one that increases the skill and one that that decreases the cost. Both are true it seems.
I added the fixed descriptions to patch for 3.1 patch mod and others
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broadstrong
Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
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posted October 15, 2008 02:49 PM |
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One more thing to add on when doing these calculations:-
Do not prematurely round down your numbers!
This is actually a known concept in Mathematics, that after every intermediate step, do not round down (or up) the answers, which would be needed for the next steps, otherwise the final solution becomes inaccurate.
In our example, starting from the first formula, till getting the final number of undead creatures that can be raised, do not do any rounding, I just used these intermediate answers to carry on working out.
In the fan manual, the "number of creatures to raise", based on killing 10 of every living creature with basic necromancy, is rounded down. These figures are convenient to use, but note that slight inaccuracies may arise because of the premature rounding.
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The queer part of the Carcity/Broadstrong/Zamfir[
/b] threeway, equipped with sailing, summon allies, spatial travel and supermover.
Many current projects on hand.
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Archprelate
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 28, 2009 02:06 PM |
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Necro Chart for easier planning
Necromancy Chart for all you necro lovers...
I have found this chart helpful in planning my use of DE
each week. Now I can check the neutral stacks on the map,
and decide where I use my DE points, and get the undead
creatures I want. Enjoy!
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Legend:
The number in parenthesis after each creature = the number of undead creatures raised, if 10 living creatures are killed, at basic Necromancy (20%), rounded down.
DE cost (upg creature cost)
Skeleton 2 (3) DE
Zombie 4 (6) DE
Ghost 9 (13) DE
Vampire 20 (29) DE
Lich 46 (61) DE
Wight 88 (103) DE
Bone Dragon 126 (156) DE
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Neutral
Air Elemental ___________NONE
Earth Elemental _________NONE
Water Elemental _________NONE
Fire Elemental __________NONE
Death Knight ____________NONE
Phoenix _________________NONE
Wolf ______________(2.63)Spectre
Mummy ___________________NONE
Manticore _________(1.60)Bone Dragon
Academy
Gremlin ___________(2.00)Skeleton Archer
Master Gremlin ____(2.40)Skeleton Archer
Gremlin Saboteur___(2.40)Skeleton Archer
Stone Gargoyle __________NONE
Obsidian Gargoyle _______NONE
Elemental Gargoyle ______NONE
Iron Golem ______________NONE
Steel Golem _____________NONE
Magnetic Golem __________NONE
Mage ______________(0.72)Lich
Archmage __________(1.09)ArchLich
Battle Mage _______(1.05)ArchLich
Djinn _____________(0.84)Wight
Djinn Sultan ______(0.95)Wight
Djinn Vizier ______(1.05)Wight
Rakshasa Rani _____(2.40)Wraith
Rakshasa Raja _____(2.80)Wraith
Rakshasa Kshatra___(2.70)Wraith
Colossus __________(3.50)Wraith
Titan _____________(3.80)Wraith
Storm Titan _______(3.80)Wraith
Haven
Peasant ___________(1.50)Skeleton
Conscript _________(3.00)Skeleton
Brute _____________(3.00)Skeleton
Archer ____________(2.80)Skeleton Archer
Marksman __________(4.00)Skeleton Archer
Crossbowman _______(4.00)Skeleton Archer
Footman ___________(1.88)Plague Zombie
Squire ____________(3.06)Plague Zombie
Vindicator ________(3.06)Zombie
Griffin ___________(3.75)Ghost
Imperial Griffin __(3.68)Spectre
Battle Griffin ____(5.47)Spectre
Priest ____________(2.16)Lich
Inquisitor ________(2.91)ArchLich
Zealot ____________(2.91)ArchLich
Cavalier __________(5.14)Vampire Lord
Paladin ___________(5.71)Vampire Lord
Champion __________(5.71)Vampire Lord
Angel ___________________NONE
Archangel _______________NONE
Seraph __________________NONE
Dungeon
Scout _____________(4.00)Skeleton Archer
Assassin __________(5.60)Skeleton Archer
Stalker ___________(6.00)Skeleton Archer
Blood Maiden ______(8.00)Skeleton
Blood Fury ________(8.00)Skeleton
Blood Sister _____(10.50)Skeleton
Minotaur __________(3.65)Zombie
Minotaur Guard ____(4.12)Plague Zombie
Minotaur Taskmaster(4.71)Plague Zombie
Dark Raider _______(2.67)Vampire
Grim Raider _______(4.00)Vampire
Brisk Raider ______(4.00)Vampire
Hydra ____________(10.00)Ghost
Deep Hydra _______(13.16)Spectre
Foul Hydra _______(13.16)Spectre
Shadow Witch ______(2.91)ArchLich
Shadow Matriarch __(3.27)ArchLich
Shadow Mistress ___(3.64)ArchLich
Shadow Dragon _____(2.67)Bone Dragon
Black Dragon ______(3.00)Spectral Dragon
Red Dragon ________(2.96)Spectral Dragon
Inferno
Imp _______________(2.00)Skeleton
Familiar __________(3.00)Skeleton
Vermin ____________(3.00)Skeleton
Horned Demon ______(1.53)Zombie
Horned Overseer ___(1.53)Plague Zombie
Horned Grunt ______(1.53)Plague Zombie
Hell Hound ________(1.88)Ghost
Cerberus __________(1.58)Spectre
Firehound _________(1.58)Spectre
Succubus __________(1.33)Vampire
Succubus Mistress__(1.71)Vampire Lord
Succubus Seducer __(1.83)Vampire Lord
Hell Charger ______(5.26)Spectre
Nightmare _________(6.95)Spectre
Hell Stallion _____(6.95)Spectre
Pit Fiend _________(2.32)Wight
Pit Lord __________(2.40)Wraith
Pit Spawn _________(2.80)Wraith
Devil _____________(3.32)Wraith
Arch Devil ________(3.98)Wraith
Arch Demon ________(4.22)Wraith
Sylvan
Pixie _____________(0.63)Ghost
Sprite ____________(0.63)Spectre
Dryad _____________(0.63)Spectre
Blade Dancer ______(6.00)Skeleton
War Dancer ________(6.00)Skeleton
Wind Dancer _______(6.00)Skeleton
Hunter ____________(4.00)Skeleton Archer
Master Hunter _____(5.60)Skeleton Archer
Arcane Archer _____(5.60)Skeleton Archer
Druid _____________(1.36)Lich
Druid Elder _______(1.20)ArchLich
High Druid ________(1.24)ArchLich
Unicorn _________________NONE
Silver Unicorn __________NONE
Pristine Unicorn ________NONE
Treant ____________(3.68)Wight
Ancient Treant_____(3.62)Wraith
Savage Treant _____(3.50)Wraith
Green Dragon ______(2.67)Bone Dragon
Emerald Dragon_____(2.50)Spectral Dragon
Crystal Dragon_____(2.50)Spectral Dragon
:HoF: Fortress
Defender __________(0.82)Plague Zombie
Shield Guard ______(1.41)Plague Zombie
Mountain Guard ____(1.41)Zombie
Spearwielder ______(3.60)Skeleton Archer
Skirmisher ________(4.80)Skeleton Archer
Harpooner _________(4.00)Skeleton Archer
Bear Raider _______(3.13)Ghost
Blackbear Raider __(3.16)Spectre
Whitebear Raider __(3.75)Ghost
Brawler ___________(1.33)Vampire
Berserker _________(1.43)Vampire Lord
Battlerager _______(1.71)Vampire Lord
Rune Priest _______(2.18)ArchLich
Rune Patriarch ____(2.18)ArchLich
Rune Keeper _______(2.36)ArchLich
Thane _____________(2.00)Wraith
Flame Lord ________(2.40)Wraith
Thunder Thane _____(2.90)Wraith
Fire Dragon _____________NONE
Magma Dragon ____________NONE
Lava Dragon _____________NONE
:ToE: Stronghold
Goblin ____________(1.50)Skeleton
Goblin Trapper ____(3.50)Skeleton
Goblin Witchdoctor_(2.50)Skeleton
Centaur ___________(0.75)Ghost
Centaur Nomad _____(0.95)Spectre
Centaur Marauder __(1.05)Spectre
Warrior ___________(1.41)Plague Zombie
Mauler ____________(1.41)Plague Zombie
Warmonger _________(2.35)Plague Zombie
Shaman ____________(1.20)Lich
Sky Daughter ______(1.27)ArchLich
Earth Daughter ____(1.27)ArchLich
Slayer ____________(1.94)Vampire Lord
Executioner _______(2.29)Vampire Lord
Chieftain _________(2.74)Vampire Lord
Wyvern ____________(1.89)Wight
Foul Wyvern _______(2.10)Wraith
Paokai ____________(2.40)Wraith
Cyclops ___________(4.40)Wraith
Untamed Cyclops ___(4.50)Wraith
Bloodeyed Cyclops _(4.95)Wight
*********** end of file *************
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Nebdar
Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
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posted February 04, 2009 07:31 AM |
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I in the name of all Necro lovers Thank you
It is very interesting and will be helpful. Feel free to add more interesting news or infos about Necros
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Kruniac
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 06, 2009 03:18 PM |
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Thanks a lot. This will come in handy XD
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KANYENKYE
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 13, 2009 05:51 AM |
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But I dont get it...
I play as necromancer and I only can raise my own dead units
(Eternal servitude) and skeletons and after that skeleton archers. I can:t raise anything else! Is it something wrong with te patch I am using or am I doing something wrong
P.S. I once got 1 million plus skeleton archers in three stacks: total ownage
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Were all gonna die!!
Were all gonna die!!
Were all gonna die!!
I cant help being a pessimist- a well informed optimist
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted February 13, 2009 08:23 AM |
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...You don't have Tribes of The East?
By then necromancy was imba indeed.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted February 13, 2009 03:04 PM |
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@KANYENKYE: Either patch your game or buy TotE, the second expansion (which is a lot better than the original or HoF). Then you'll see what this is all about 
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razor5
Famous Hero
Freezing...
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posted February 13, 2009 06:04 PM |
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Quote:
Angel ___________________NONE
Archangel _______________NONE
Seraph __________________NONE
I though the Angel&Archangel&Seraph are turned into Bone Dragons,but well,sorry if this is a stupid post,but I rarely played with Necros (except in campaings) and using the DE for having more creatures
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted February 13, 2009 06:20 PM |
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It's a nice loreish touch by Ubi that Angels can't be raised as undead.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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KANYENKYE
Tavern Dweller
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posted February 14, 2009 01:24 AM |
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Quote:
@KANYENKYE: Either patch your game or buy TotE, the second expansion (which is a lot better than the original or HoF). Then you'll see what this is all about
O.k I but it and I played it and it all works... but why cant you raise upgraded 3 units? i.e can raise vampire lords but not vampire
princes. And also, if your stacks are full of upgraded units, what happens to the unupgraded raised units?
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