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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 03, 2007 11:13 PM |
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Quote:
some ideas for how to balance the renegades so that they can be used as alternates:
enforcer loses bash
crossbowman -1 def, 2-7 dam instead of 2-8
vindicator -1 def
battle griffin -2 initiative
zealot no range attack
champion stays the same
fallen angel has the same stats but instead of life drain he has fright aura, enraged and no enemy retaliation
Well..
enforcers should definitely lose bash.
Crossbowman --> obviously lower damage.
Vindicator--> if it's meant to be more offensive, than it should be obviously less bulky. Def/hp nerf.
Battle griffin --> this unit is weak (!), yes, the lose of battledive and offensive power for a much worse special and defensive typing that completely doesn't suit a unit with 15 initiative, sorry, it should be buffed if it's meant to be used as alternative, not nerfed.
Zealot--> no blind. There are other spells it can use.. or maybe stronger offensive capabilities?
Champion--> more or less ok.
Fallen Angel--> retains his signature life drain, but the damage range and HP gets reduced.
that would make it more or less balanced.
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Deathy
Known Hero
Angels Galore
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posted June 03, 2007 11:24 PM |
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Quote:
some ideas for how to balance the renegades so that they can be used as alternates:
enforcer loses bash
crossbowman -1 def, 2-7 dam instead of 2-8
vindicator -1 def
battle griffin -2 initiative
zealot no range attack
champion stays the same
fallen angel has the same stats but instead of life drain he has fright aura, enraged and no enemy retaliation
i wouldn't really call that much balancing. with no range penalty, even if crossbowmen lose one max damage point, with that skill, they would be doing quite enormous damage most of the time. considering haven always has light magic. and creeping would become even more easy o.o
would losing only one defense skill for vindicators really be that great? considering how haven heroes get pretty massive defense naturally.
battle griffin's aren't that great anyway, since they don't have battle dive.
who cares if zealots lose range attack, all they would need to do is blind your units and your done for 
so your letting champions keep their almost firebreath like ability? how nice, killing 2 stacks instead of one  with massive damage and jousting bonus too!
while life drain is quite nice, there are other things imbalancing Fallen Angel's too. like massive 75 damage if blessed combined with 35 attack skill. would be very frightening damage i would say. infact, is there any other lvl 7 creature that does more damage than Fallen Angel if fully buffed? and i know that many Haven players like to use the angels more as damage dealers.
the thing that i would dislike most about renegades becoming the alternative is that Nival would surely use that as an excuse not to make new abilities for these units. in my opinion this would be wrong, haven having to stick with old abilities, not getting anything new and innovative. all the 3 other factions that have been revealed so far have gotten awesome sounding new abilities after all.
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Haven player.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted June 04, 2007 12:22 AM |
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Hell yeah I would. Although they might get downgraded a bit, I think that life-draining Fallen Angel is gonna be a favourit. And it would be reason enough for me to play Haven.
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The_Mysterious
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 04, 2007 12:33 AM |
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Yeah, they could fit for Haven alternatives.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 04, 2007 08:03 AM |
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in response to doomforge - I decreased the battle griffin's initiative only to make his special ability more strong( so by lowering its initiative I've buffed it, not nerf it)
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 04, 2007 10:57 AM |
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Quote:
i wouldn't really call that much balancing. with no range penalty, even if crossbowmen lose one max damage point, with that skill, they would be doing quite enormous damage most of the time. considering haven always has light magic. and creeping would become even more easy o.o
The elven hunter alternative, the sharpshooter, also has no range penalty, plus enormous damage, good survivability and a second skill.That means crossbowman can have it too.
Quote:
so your letting champions keep their almost firebreath like ability? how nice, killing 2 stacks instead of one with massive damage and jousting bonus too!
champion charge does half damage, not full, like firebreath does. And, lay hands is immensely useful, I would not pick champions right away beacause they have champion charge, especially without cleansing in the guild. I'd call it a balanced alternative. Don't forget the paladin is already extremely strong, so his alternative has to be at least equal in terms of strength, and that's close to "overpowered"
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 04, 2007 11:13 AM |
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I kind of dislike creatures with no range penalty. They are easily overpowered (like sharpshooters from H3), the enemy cannot use any strategies fighting them. And from playing HoF, Crossbowman as they are cannot remain. And I fear Sharp shooter is also overpowered, unless Force Arrow is a negative thing (like initiative penalty after a shot), but it doesn't sound like one. Sounds like it will push enemy creatures back one tile. It is overpowered because it does more damage (nearly 40%!!!), has more initiative (crucial, initial shot makes all the difference in the world) and even has 1 point more defence.
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted June 04, 2007 11:50 AM |
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maybe force arrow makes your sharpshoters explode? that would be balanced
no, really.
lets say we bless master hunters (what? you all talk about it when crossbowmans' turn comes sylvans got also light magic). then it would deal similiar damage to sharpshoter. and now imagine enemy comes closer and master hunters deal two full shots, thats 2x damage of sharpshoter. they are not IMBA IMO.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 04, 2007 12:07 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 12:14, 04 Jun 2007.
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You shouldn't take Bless into consideration, or you should but NOT as a rule taht you have it always. You don't, and weakness has double effect as well. For Haven it is easier because Inquisitors have it, you need not to use a Hero turn for it.
Rarely anyone enters the full shot range of Master Hunters - they are easily killed from afar. But granted, from full range Master Hunters score more damage. But not 2x. They do about 50% more damage on that special occasion when enemy is within range. Now sharp shooter does 40% more damage in EVERY other occasion than full range... You do the math.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted June 04, 2007 12:17 PM |
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Enforcer - no reason to build their dwelling anyway
Crossbowman - stays same
Vindicator - stays same
Battle Griffin - 12 attack, 6 defense, 5-20 damage
Zealot - remove blind, add cleansing
Champion - stays same
Fallen Angel - cost 5000 gold and 3 crystal
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 04, 2007 12:55 PM |
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Quote:
You shouldn't take Bless into consideration, or you should but NOT as a rule taht you have it always. You don't, and weakness has double effect as well. For Haven it is easier because Inquisitors have it, you need not to use a Hero turn for it.
Rarely anyone enters the full shot range of Master Hunters - they are easily killed from afar. But granted, from full range Master Hunters score more damage. But not 2x. They do about 50% more damage on that special occasion when enemy is within range. Now sharp shooter does 40% more damage in EVERY other occasion than full range... You do the math.
and still gets killed with one empowered lucky spell. As a dungeon player, I completely don't care for his penalties 
Haven players will at last make a good use of the squires' shield allies thingy.
Also, mass deflect missle turns any shooter instantly useless, same for confusion if you can't cleanse it.
Shooters were grossly underpowered in vanilla heroes 5. Some good skills, like no range penalty, are needed to make them worthwile once again.
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted June 04, 2007 01:20 PM |
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Edited by radar at 13:22, 04 Jun 2007.
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I've just made a little test.
There are two heroes - Klaus and Raven, Klaus has:
- 50 Crossbowmans modded exacly to have same stats as Sharpshoters,
- 50 Master Hunters which stay untouched.
Raven has 2 stacks of 1000 skeletons per each.
Klaus has Tent, but it doesn't matter. Raven has no war machines. Both heroes have no battle skills. Klaus has attack of 3, and Raven has 3 defence. They have no artifacts which affect stats. Each Klaus stack has its own target to attack.
*Battle begins. Crossbowman (aka Sharpshooter) attacks his part of skellies with one full shot.
*Master Hunter turn comes and shots twice to his skellies with range penalty.
*Both skellies stacks move into full shot range.
*Crossbowman attacks his part of skellies with one full shot.
*Master Hunter turn comes and shots two full shots to his skellies.
*Klaus army gets vanished by Skeletons.
Klaus army had morale of 1, but it didn't trigger, as Warding Arrow didn't trigger either.
Master Hunters killed 283 Skeletons.
Crossbowmans killed 257 Skeletons.
Any conclusion?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 04, 2007 01:28 PM |
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That hunters are better at close range naturally. Nothing that could not be guessed. In any case it's the 11 initiative that is very painful, in 1v1 sharpshooters should kill hunters with ease...
They should be a great hunter killer in creeping but to upgrade them early is painful unless the costs change a bit.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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The_Mysterious
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 04, 2007 01:59 PM |
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About griffins... i miss Royal griffins from heroes 3, they were better looking than even Imperial griffins. 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 04, 2007 02:11 PM |
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Quote:
About griffins... i miss Royal griffins from heroes 3, they were better looking than even Imperial griffins.
you mean that ugly something with an move animation as if someone used a shock prod on it? yeah, yeah.
H3 fanboys scare me
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted June 04, 2007 02:16 PM |
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doom, they just looked better, no matter if someone used shock prod...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 04, 2007 02:18 PM |
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Agreed. I liked their proud stance even if it didn't seem as natural 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 04, 2007 02:29 PM |
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Quote:
Agreed. I liked their proud stance even if it didn't seem as natural
as natural? It looked ridiculous
I always hated their appearance and missed the good old heroes2 times
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Zielony
Tavern Dweller
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posted June 04, 2007 03:56 PM |
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Yeh, this is a point for other alternatives. But why should nival create a completely new line(!), when they o'ready have one? Did u think 'bout that? And if they create a new line, where do u think will the renegates fit in? A neutral race? With dwellings and so on? And wouldn't it take toooo much time to create a complete new line up?
And by the way: I think this armored imperial griffin looks bettter than the old ones
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chester_a_r
Hired Hero
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posted June 04, 2007 04:18 PM |
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They will most likely create a new line-up for heaven alternatives,and the main way to think about this is story-wise, as the units that people wrongly call 'renegades' can't fight alongside with the normal heaven units (followers of elrath)(oh, and no reasoning like 'man, cut it out with your story wise, they have the fallen knight feat for knights, does that seem story-wise to you', because I can't see the point of it)
Except from that, I don't think they will spend too much time on this, because the job is really to modify some models and create some abilities, they don't create anything from scratch,except the particular abilities.
So, as a conclusion, I'm AGAINST 'renegades' as alternatives.
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