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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 15, 2007 06:35 PM |
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better upgrade, you say.. hmm..
about peasants, I agree, doesn't matter..
crossbowmen make good units, but marksmen's ability to clear utopias in 2nd-3rd week is hard to neglect. Besides, if you can somehow force the enemy to come near them, you have a one-shot kill. So it's situational. Against things like magma dragons, I'd prefer marksmen. Against offensive factions, crossbowmen are better.
Squire vs. Vindicator, another interesting match. Vindicators do excelent damage while being very sturdy, but still, they are slow and have poor initiative. Still, their attacks are nothing to laugh at, and they look good  against overpowered sharpshooters, squires are more than a must, though. You need to reduce their ridiculous damage somehow.. until battle diving gryphs tear them apart.
Griffins, well, battle dive and offensive typing > battle griffin, nuff said.
Inquisitor vs. zealot, well, if your hero wants to do dark magic (and against inferno, he should want to), inquistor takes the role of buffer. With a lot of units with damage spread a lot, bless is a very important spell, so is haste. Zealot ofc wins with the blindness, which can be casted three times per stack with refined mana..
Paladins vs. Champions, well, I'd say a small stack(or stacks) of paladins are a neat choice, followed by a big stack of champions as melee force.
Archangel vs. Fallen Angel, if fallen angel stats remain unchanged it's a simple choice: fallen angel, hands down the most powerful melee unit in the game (when blessed, that is.). And with a certain bless from inquisitors..
So, it's not so obvious which unit to take.
I wish all the factions had such dillemas. >_>
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 15, 2007 08:09 PM |
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the thing that worries me is:
*in the russian magazine there was a pic of the Rakshasa Kshatri and I fought "no way", we've already seen a princess artwork, but...as it turns out the khsatri appeared as the alternate
* also the magazine showed a footman holding a two handed sword; that's bad for me and good for most of the community since it might be the alternate and not the vindicator 
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Deathy
Known Hero
Angels Galore
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posted June 15, 2007 08:19 PM |
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well when it comes to marksmen being awesome creepers, the thing is people could just first creep with marksmen, clearing the 7 lvl units with precise shot, and when the other player is coming to your territory you could switch to crossbowmen. i myself atleast don't see too many chances of getting use out of precise shot in big battles, as unfortunate as it is. it is so easy after all to just stay away from the marksmen as long as it is needed to be able to strike at them. unless of course you teleport the marksmen but that is totally different scenario
yeah, the biggest problem with Vindicators is that they are so slow. Squires can make themselves useful by protecting shooters and angels and paladins from ranged attacks even in the first round. while Vindicators can inflict good damage, it takes them the first round just so they can move towards the enemy. and it takes atleast 2 rounds minimum to give these units a initiave big enough so they can actually do damage often enough. they have damage potential but they waste most of it because they can barely get to hit their enemies.
haha i wonder does anyone actually disagree about royal griffin > battle griffin
while the buffs can be extremely useful, most of the time the hero can do them. and inquisitors usually end up doing stuff like countering weakness or slow with bless and haste. while important things to do for sure, blindess x3 every match can be huge cripple to your enemy, especially against factions that have no way to use cleansing. or have very minimal chance to get it. and even if they would have it, having to cleanse away blindness so often pretty much puts you into the position of ordering what your enemy hero can do.
hehe Paladins and Champions working together would be awesome ill admit that much. they work so well together.
and yeah, Fallen Angel is just superior. period.
while you did give good example that basically you could use all the units, in the exception of Paladins and Royal Griffins, in most situations renegades can perform better. i mean sure there are few places where haven units abilities rule over, but if those situations are like maybe 2-3 times out of 10, is it really that even choice then? and in situations where haven unit is better creeper, you can always switch the unit later into renegade 
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Haven player.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 15, 2007 10:18 PM |
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I'm pretty sure that if the renegades will be the alternates they will be a bit nerfed, even if it will be in ulterior patches
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted June 15, 2007 11:20 PM |
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Well they sure ought to be. Creeping becomes a bore if you have Crossbowman... Upgrading to Master Hunters/Sharpshootes in a few weeks at least cripples your economy, but Crossbowmans can be obtained in the first few days. Blaah. Damage is nearly same as with Blood Furies, but look at the growth!
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted June 16, 2007 11:36 AM |
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Quote:
Enforcer vs Conscript: nobody cares, they are used for training anyway. and in how many games, do you see the enemy use any variation of peasants in the battlefield in last battle but of course Enforcers are superior in every way.
Enforcers aren't superior in every way, their stats sux. In training, even if you'll train 20 of them to archers, half of population will still remain.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 16, 2007 01:37 PM |
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I don't know what you understood, I said that enforcers are superior to conscripts at stats + abilities(everything).
P.S. in case you weren't responding to one of my posts, don't mind me
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted June 16, 2007 03:58 PM |
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Quote:
official info that the alternates will share slightly different beliefs.
Aha! Its obvious for me that the renegades will be the new alts. I may have voted for no thanks to renegades, but in the few days I have become to think of that adding the renegades in Haven town wouldnt be as bad as I thought. I mean as many have mentioned, dark, spells, abilities, that these demon like humans were manipulated and trixed to belive they fighted evil. They were in fact to fight the demons but got trixed. The use demon like attitude on their armors and such, but thats is to scare and make em self more courageous. Call me a hypocrite, but I go for Renegades 
Quote:
They're all pink.
No they AINT! Not all.
The Skeleton Warrior has purple glowing eyes, the poltergeists ahve a redish/ crimson like glow. The Banshee and the Horror Dragon are the only ones, they looked pink but I think they aiming at purple, a darker purple I hope. Since it seems they saturizaed the colors to see what we thought of it.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 16, 2007 04:13 PM |
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Or they have a bad fashion sense 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 16, 2007 10:59 PM |
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the way I see it classic necro upgrd went for green/cyan and the alternates for pink/white
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dodokilla
Hired Hero
Hunting dodos
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posted June 17, 2007 08:53 AM |
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Here´s my suggestions to change renegades if they will be the alternatives(i´m still not sure of that)
Enforcer:Yes they are not changing the Haven gameplay, but still alternatives should be alternatives not bad unit vs slightly more bad unit. My suggestion is: take away bash from enforcers.
Crossbowman: I think they are pretty fine. Crossbowmen is better at creeping but Marksmen are often the better choise in late game. They are the only tier 2 unit you really have to fear then.
My suggestion:none,or maybe nerf hp a bit
Vindicator: They are fine as they are. Attacker vs defender.
Battle griffin: I think that they have to be a little bit better to compete with the mighty battle dive. My suggestion: change the attack rating from 6 to about 12.
Zealot: Well blind is a bit overpowering but on the other hand, pretty cool. They will fear the power of the Quasits thought 
My suggestions: nerf attack rating to 18 and let them have the same hp as priests (54)
Champions: They are balanced, I think. Better damage potential vs cleansers.
Fallen Angel: Vampirism on this heavy damage dealer is pretty insane, but logical for a fallen Angel( they ressurect themself instead of others)
My suggestion: lower the max damage to 60, their hp to 200 and give them "curse of Elrath", light magic cannot be cast at them.
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chester_a_r
Hired Hero
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posted June 17, 2007 10:27 AM |
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Hopefully there won't be renegades as alternatives...have you ever seen a vampire angel?? that's not story or lore-wise and no reasons like 'they heal themselves instead of others', because it's not logical , selfish angels and stuff..
Can't get what people see so cool in these 'renegades', as you call them...they just DO NOT fit in the same castle as the original heaven...they have opposite beliefs...they can't be in the same army
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 17, 2007 10:41 AM |
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Not exactly a vampire angel, but in HexenII there was a fallen angel enemy which looked pretty cool and had vampire fangs.
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dodokilla
Hired Hero
Hunting dodos
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posted June 17, 2007 11:07 AM |
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Quote:
Hopefully there won't be renegades as alternatives...have you ever seen a vampire angel?? that's not story or lore-wise and no reasons like 'they heal themselves instead of others', because it's not logical , selfish angels and stuff..
Can't get what people see so cool in these 'renegades', as you call them...they just DO NOT fit in the same castle as the original heaven...they have opposite beliefs...they can't be in the same army
I see your point, but from my view, Haven is the human faction and there has always been an duality in humankind. The light/dark magic path shows that Haven has a darker side too.
As for Fallen Angels there are mentioned both in the bible and the coraan. There it is written that the Fallen Angels have fallen from grace of God and chosen their own path. But there is no mention of that they would be enemys to humans.
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 17, 2007 01:20 PM |
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just a thought...
there are many ways to have a fallen angel...
in judeochristian dogma, a fallen archangel is the main antagonist... and fallen angels are demons ...in the world of tolkien, you have a fallen archangel (the terms archangel and angel are never used, but they are the equivalent in power) as the main antagonist and some fallen angels (Sauron, the Balrogs) as Pretty Bad Things (TM) ...the Renegade fallen angel is not that much of a stretch ...they are still messengers (thats what angel means) of their dragon/deity, but only in their own minds ...instead of protecting others, they try to eradicate all threats, a simple twist in philosophy
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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chester_a_r
Hired Hero
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posted June 17, 2007 02:19 PM |
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Yeah....but why in the world would an Elrath-worshiping holy-thinking righteous priest or paladin would be fighting along side , in the same army, with a fallen angel??? or a vindicator?? it does not make sense...and the light-dark duality does not apply everywhere...do you see good side in inferno?
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 17, 2007 02:45 PM |
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uhm
first of all, this is not elrath we are talking about...
and the renegades are simply more aggressive than the normal haven units, in a way they fight fire with fire, others may not necessarily agree with their methods, but sometimes its just best to shut up and survive with the help of people you may not see eye to eye, rather than have to fight everyone
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Card_Ximinez
Famous Hero
no
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posted June 17, 2007 03:28 PM |
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CH poll
I noticed this poll at CH.
Quote:
Which alt upgrades do you want to see next?
Academy
Fortress
Haven
Inferno
Necropolis
Interesting, huh?
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wtf this still exists
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted June 17, 2007 03:32 PM |
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Nothing special 
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dodokilla
Hired Hero
Hunting dodos
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posted June 17, 2007 03:47 PM |
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Quote:
...do you see good side in inferno?
No, but I see no humans there either
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This thread is pages long: 
