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Deathy
Known Hero
Angels Galore
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posted June 04, 2007 04:45 PM |
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i wouldn't really call that much balancing. with no range penalty, even if crossbowmen lose one max damage point, with that skill, they would be doing quite enormous damage most of the time. considering haven always has light magic. and creeping would become even more easy o.o
The elven hunter alternative, the sharpshooter, also has no range penalty, plus enormous damage, good survivability and a second skill.That means crossbowman can have it too.
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so your letting champions keep their almost firebreath like ability? how nice, killing 2 stacks instead of one  with massive damage and jousting bonus too!
champion charge does half damage, not full, like firebreath does. And, lay hands is immensely useful, I would not pick champions right away beacause they have champion charge, especially without cleansing in the guild. I'd call it a balanced alternative. Don't forget the paladin is already extremely strong, so his alternative has to be at least equal in terms of strength, and that's close to "overpowered" 
yeah, i kinda didn't mean the crossbowmen would be insanely imbalanced, im just more worried about the fact that a shooter with no range penalty would always be used instead of marksmen. i mean compare the situations where no range penalty would be more useful than precise shot. with master hunter vs sharpshooter it's atleast balanced because master hunter has two shots and sharpshooters no range penalty is meant to cover for the loss of that. precise shot on the other hand is meant to be mainly used against stuff with high defense, but paladins usually already take care of those units, so most people would rather go no range penalty(and therefore crossbowmen) which would help clean other shooters and low level units with ease.
and about champions, hehe that's why i said ALMOST firebreath like ability ^^ i was aware it only does half the damage to the second unit. im not that scared of champions themselves, but with the ability to train units to their alternatives in the new expansion(paladins to champions and vice versa), think of the possibility to use both paladins and champions at same time. now you have champion charge AND lay hands at your disposal. ouch i say  but atleast champions are far more balanced than fallen angels and zealots
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Haven player.
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted June 04, 2007 05:22 PM |
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You know what? I am dissapointed  If ToE will bring 49 new creatures as alternatives... just look: 49 : 7 = 7, but we will have 8 factions... so renegades stay
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 04, 2007 05:24 PM |
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You know what? I am dissapointed If ToE will bring 49 new creatures as alternatives... just look: 49 : 7 = 7, but we will have 8 factions... so renegades stay
Why do you include stronghold in your calculations? These units can't be counted as new alternatives. It would be pointless to say 49 new creatures (including the stronghold alternatives) cuz.. which of the stronghold upgrades are new and which ones are old?
It's 49:7, not 49:8. So it's ok.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 04, 2007 08:32 PM |
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I think they said 49, without explaining further more because they weren't sure either, what to do with the renegades
no haven alternates yet...another week of debates for this topic...
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Deathy
Known Hero
Angels Galore
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posted June 06, 2007 01:00 AM |
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im gonna stay as a firm believer of no renegades until ive been proven wrong XD or in good case of course, proven right.
one thing that worries me also btw, most of the new alternatives are giving all the factions a chance to renew their tactics in battle. however, i cannot see this chance with the renegades, since they are mostly very close to haven units anyway. this of course is only if they keep all the old abilities for the renegades instead of making new ones.
what would change with haven IF renegades were to be the alternatives. paladins would still charge killing everything, and champions would do nothing differently. nobody would pick battle griffin because battle dive just IS that much better. well crossbowmen wouldn't have the need to be teleported close since they could shoot anywhere and do full damage enforcers? nobody uses peasants seriously anyway lol. except as training food. well vindicators would probably be the only unit to get a new purpose, instead of defending, they would be attacking this time. harassing the enemy shooters because of large shield and cleave ability. angels would be even more attackers than they were before. not that many people use them for resurrection anyway. and zealots would be support casting like their counterparts. except more offensively this time
i ask this seriously, with renegades as alternatives, and no abilities changed, what would REALLY CHANGE for haven in the first place, and what would then be the whole point of those alternatives.
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Haven player.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 06, 2007 06:44 AM |
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I think that the gameplay would change as much as for sylvan or inferno, no substantial changes, but there are changes...it makes no sense to change the strategy completely, after all they are the same faction, you just get new toys to play with
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ZodkayCudimraZ
Adventuring Hero
We are Gilraenites
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posted June 07, 2007 08:47 PM |
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I think it would be really boring if those Renegades became the 2nd upgrade for the Haven. I mean, the Renegades are really cool, just not as an upgrade. The whole idea of Renegades is that they don't belong to the Haven anymore. Enabling us to get them as 2nd Ugrade would be kind of a contradiction. Besides, it's much more exciting if they create something new. Perhaps something darker.
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Parelzuurstof: kralen aan een kettingzaag geregen voor gebed.
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 07, 2007 08:53 PM |
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why all the hate?
seriously kids... all alternate upgrades seem to be based on a variation in ideology of the main faction ...if anything, the renegades are exactly that
story wise sure, the renegades in HoF are quite extreme but i can easily see the basic ideas behind them surviving even without demonic influence
as for stats... i am pretty sure there will be some tweaking
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted June 07, 2007 09:26 PM |
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Said it ealier, dont know where but the answer: No! - They are horrible!
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Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 07, 2007 10:22 PM |
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Although I may be one of the few - I think the renegades are great, all they need is a bit of balancing, after all they are what started the alternative upgrade idea and so they should be the alternates...
one more reason: since haven has the worst unit in all the game(peasant) it should also have the best(fallen angel)
I rest my case
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Deathy
Known Hero
Angels Galore
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posted June 07, 2007 10:57 PM |
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my grudge personally against the renegades isn't their sprite nor the storyline cross.
it's just the fact that i want something new and unseen for the Haven aswell, since other factions are getting new stuff too. i mean seriously, if after all this waiting they would give us renegades. i know i would be disappointed to know our alternatives for so long beforehand.
and my point about the tactics is that other factions new units are getting NEW ABILITIES ASWELL, that might change their role in battle totally. the current renegade abilities do not change any of the roles really.
i mean check the undead alternatives. they just lost all their shooters and got two melee units and the other one of them is support caster aswell. that is the kind of change that won't happen if renegades are the alternatives. but in my opinion tho, that is the kind of change i hope to see in the haven alternatives aswell. shooters into melee units and hey, maybe even melee units into shooters how about giving the squires two handed sword like some rumors tell, and angels could instead switch from huge sword into angelic bow or something haha XD or maybe spear. :3
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Haven player.
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 07, 2007 11:04 PM |
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heh
and when haven got the brand new renegades, the rest got nada, so it kinda evens out, no?
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Deathy
Known Hero
Angels Galore
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posted June 07, 2007 11:17 PM |
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Edited by Deathy at 23:18, 07 Jun 2007.
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partially true but i don't ever recall recruiting Fallen Angel's from my castles in HoF's multiplayer maps ;D
i doubt that when Nival made the renegades they thought that OMG these units should obviously be Haven's alternatives. i think that they rather thought to make somekind of units to use in the campaign to make the campaign storyline more interesting. my belief is that renegades were just meant to be campaign only creatures from the start. other games have done this too :3 like warcraft 3 with nagas.
and seriously, let's assume renegades would become the alternatives. is Nival gonna change their abilities at all, give them any new ones? or are they just gonna tweak ability or stat here and there put them out with the rest of them. if they don't want to go through the trouble of making new unit models for new Haven units(or rather, recolour them ), the LEAST they should IMO do is totally rework all the units and give them new skills. just check the insane amount of new abilities other factions are getting. pretty much one new skill per unit. except for skeleton warrior but they got huge damage reducement from ranged and magic to compensate lol.
i know i don't want myself fallen angel with life drain when sylvan just got rainbow dragon with rainbow breath :<
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Haven player.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 07, 2007 11:23 PM |
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when the renegades came out they presented new abilities at that time like: no range penalty, cleave, battle frenzy, champion charge
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted June 07, 2007 11:28 PM |
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what watcher said...
besides, we don't know what rainbow breath does yet (unless i missed some memo)
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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Deathy
Known Hero
Angels Galore
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posted June 08, 2007 12:14 AM |
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no range penalty was stolen from heroes 4 in the first place, i would hardly call that new ^^
cleave is just double attack with little modification, new skill maybe but it's not original tho and champion charge is basically a weaker fire breath that you can abuse with jousting.
battle frenzy was new skill ill admit(tho it basically borrowed an idea from the counterstrike skill ;D) but many people consider it weaker than battle dive anyway atleast for the griffins.
the new renegade abilities were basically just made new from old skills, which further makes me believe why renegades were meant to be campaign only creatures ^^ they kinda show that the abilities were just thought up quickly and developers didn't put much time into them.
yeah nobody knows what the rainbow breath does yet, but that's the thing im talking about, it's totally new skill that nobody knows anything about. that's the kind of excitement i want to feel for the haven aswell
if renegades would be alternatives, even with all the same skills that they had in HoF, i would kinda feel that "oh well back to massing paladins everygame"
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Haven player.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 08, 2007 08:57 AM |
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I believe training is meant to be changed again, so massing paladins won't be that fun anymore.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 08, 2007 09:16 AM |
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A lot of abilities(80%) were taken (you can't steal from your franchise) from previous games because the players liked them and there was no point in changing them.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted June 08, 2007 09:32 AM |
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A lot of abilities(80%) were taken (you can't steal from your franchise) from previous games because the players liked them and there was no point in changing them.
yeah, and it's hard to be creative when you want to create completely new things. Ok, jousting, double attack, life drain.. what else? Happy fluffy pillow attack? ~~
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 08, 2007 09:39 AM |
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what else? Happy fluffy pillow attack? ~~
Now that is what I'm talking about!
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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