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doom3d
Known Hero
Avatar of general Z
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posted June 16, 2007 10:11 PM |
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Edited by doom3d at 02:15, 17 Jun 2007.
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Quote:
Too bad WoG is needed for this to work.
I expected something non-wogish.
This is just the technical background. The game is as good, as the hard coded changes and script based extensions are.
TE is surely NOT a new WoG.
I swear, that You don't have to play WoG games during the install procedure.
@SAG: I was thinking a few hours about game balance issues, and I change my proposal.
So now I offer Neutral Spells- TE version with the following changes:
- only movement to mana conversion (other way raises too much balance questions, and more complicated)
- conversion factor with or without intelligence+spec. check, as You prefer.
- conversion factor based on hero level XOR sum of primaries including arties. (I used getbasicprimary macro in WoG, in TE it's not exist)
- feel free to give me "mana for one day movement" target values for heroes at lvl 1,5,10,20.. or sum of primary skills at 5,10,15..
/18 tiles on grass = ? spell points/
I will create the appropriate functions.
- Full AI support with or without AI multiplier. Don't know if You like AI tuning or not.
I will need some help to make it multiplayer ready.
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cosmin
Known Hero
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posted June 17, 2007 02:13 AM |
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Edited by cosmin at 02:13, 17 Jun 2007.
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Hello.
From the very beginning i might say that WOG wasn't one of my favorite’s versions of Heroes to play because it is more like a fantasy. To exaggerated. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the way I see it.
Heroes 3 was developed by an entire company of programmers, and yet Heroes 3 Complete Version it's the best version ever.
I think a "better version of Heroes" will never be a game where Kyrre can "sit in town for one day" and then the next day he "might use resurrection spell not even having a spell book". 
Same thing with gaining movement with manna cost....
A better version of heroes from my point of view would be a game where actually very few things "from the actual kit" would have been changed, but adding more options to RANDOM MAP GENERATOR. Allowing you to choose what you want to play. Like choosing what level of artifacts should be added on map, what heroes could be banned, even spells (categories of spells I’m thinking...); choosing for example how dense resources are added (easy to understand that for instance all maps could be a Jebus Cross or why not on the other side a Balance...). Because this is actualy the problem. The density of artifacts and resources. They make the maps unbalanced! If you may choose on Random Generator let's say a number of relics that are added to each zone is created, then the game would have a different value. You have a new motivation. You're hungry to discover faster new areas and find those relics before your opponent would do it!
This is to my opinion a TE version of Heroes. I don’t mean disrespect! I look forward to seeing what's going to happen with the current TE. The time will tell!
cos
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doom3d
Known Hero
Avatar of general Z
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posted June 17, 2007 02:25 AM |
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Quote:
...
I think a "better version of Heroes" will never be a game where Kyrre can "sit in town for one day" and then the next day he "might use resurrection spell not even having a spell book".
Who said that? Resurrection w/o spellbook would be strange.
Of Course, if mana->movement direction will be disabled, I will check, if a magic book is present or not.
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted June 17, 2007 03:17 PM |
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Quote:
From the very beginning i might say that WOG wasn't one of my favorite’s versions of Heroes to play because it is more like a fantasy.
WOG is singleplayer game. TE is based on WOG engine, but almost all WOG features are disabled as useless.
Quote:
I think a "better version of Heroes" will never be a game where Kyrre can "sit in town for one day" and then the next day he "might use resurrection spell not even having a spell book".
What do you mean?
Quote:
Same thing with gaining movement with manna cost....
Hmm. I doubt very much that this proposal will be enabled.
Quote:
A better version of heroes from my point of view would be a game where actually very few things "from the actual kit" would have been changed, but adding more options to RANDOM MAP GENERATOR.
Actually I asked already to make script for Witch huts (IMHO they should be allowed to give all skills). In general, developers are mainly fixed map players (strange but true), so they give less priority on randoms. Also, it's hard to do anything with RMG without program's listings...
Quote:
...what heroes could be banned
now there are no hero restrictions as far as i know, only Mullich is disabled. Even diplo heroes are in game, cause you simply can't join any guard (all guards set to "Savage").
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...even spells
it's possible to tune game switching on/off DD/Fly and few others
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categories of spells I’m thinking...
)
what do you mean?
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...choosing for example how dense resources are added
it was always possible in RMG.txt  you control density and quantity of resources
Quote:
The time will tell!
Time already tested TE - first version appeared 2 years ago, now is 6th modification.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted June 18, 2007 12:12 PM |
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I have tried the mod and i must say... I'm with Cosmin on this one. It just doesn't feel right to me.
Only thing i regret is not making a copy of my folder so i can't play normal heroes now until i get Cd back.
To me its much simpler:
Too many options = every player has his own game.
In TE it's not as bad as in WoG but its something.
In any case, the work is apreciated, and i hope that people with more free time can give the mod a proper chance.
And about leagues - i find them all the same, but i don't see why there should be any competition between them. After all, you can play for both leagues, much like different box divisions.
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted June 18, 2007 01:09 PM |
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Yasmiel - am i wrong, but i thing you said you dont play much online... if that is the case its normal you dont care about the new mods. But beleive me - some of them are VITAL.
Even if its only the exchange army button - thats enough for me!!!
And the others - you can switch OFF all of them. So whats the problem?
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted June 18, 2007 03:20 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 15:25, 18 Jun 2007.
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To all of you:
Please try to post opinions about the new H3 MOD "TE", and not about the different tournaments and their Admins. TE has nothing to do with WCL, LRH or ToH. Only because members/admins from different tournaments may have different opinions about that new MOD doesn't mean they want to express their "bad opinions" about the other tournament.
I also tried WoG and it was not my style. Uninstalled it soon...period.
"TE" has some good features and also some I find pretty useless resp. a step in the wrong direction.
Does that mean I dislike WCL? Of course not. I appreciate SAG's work and effort for making H3 a better game very much. My taste may slightly differ from most of the russian developers, but who am I?
Hope u got my point...
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted June 18, 2007 03:23 PM |
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IMPORTANT MESSAGE
Hot guys, please stop. This thread is EXACTLY for Heroes of Might and Might III Tournament Edition. I would kindly ask you to stay on topic.
I will remind this thread OBJECTIVES:
1) Publish news about Heroes of Might and Might III Tournament Edition (TE).
2) Help community to install and test TE 1.03q.
3) Help community to get feedback back to the team of developers.
4) Discuss current features/options/settings and decide which should be on default.
5) Discuss possibilities of future enhancements.
For those, who wanna continue dispute about leagues, please swith to this thread.
I'm really not happy about offtopic posts here, so i would kindly ask Angelito to delete any future offtopic posts from this thread.
P.S. I was not developing TE, I just assist now in it's promotion and future development
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted June 19, 2007 09:58 AM |
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Quote:
Yasmiel - am i wrong, but i thing you said you dont play much online... if that is the case its normal you dont care about the new mods. But beleive me - some of them are VITAL.
Even if its only the exchange army button - thats enough for me!!!
And the others - you can switch OFF all of them. So whats the problem?
Yes, i said i don't play much on Gamespy or similar online matching services. I do however play in LAN tournaments and games. I'm not saying that changes are bad, in fact most of them in T.E. are good if not vital as you say.
But however there is a feel that it could and would be done differently if some other person would do it. Some stuff could perhaps be done better. All in all it gives a same feeling as we have done with "everyone has his own trait files"
For example, small community in my area (7 players) will probably use it, but with additional changes to trait files because spell balance solution is seen differently (We don't think +1 cost for slow makes a difference).
NOTE: I'm not saying "our" way is best, but it is much easier to rebel against something proposed by an modder than something official and because of that i fear for mod's acceptance.
All in All, I'm not saying the mod is bad.. it is good, but somehow i don't think it will get the much needed use spread spectrum.
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted June 19, 2007 10:06 AM |
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I found 2 bug. 1 mod cant be disabled and 1 mod doesnt work.
1. One of the most important thing - creatures gain experience can not be disabled. Its said in the manual, that its hardcoded, but SAG said that it CAN be disabled. I did it in the WOG options, but later in the game the creatures still gained experience.
2. I checked the option to eliminate spells as scuttle boat, summon boat etc. but still found such spells in magic shrines.
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted June 19, 2007 11:06 AM |
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Quote:
"everyone has his own trait files"
Bah! I forgot to say about nice and important thing: no more mess with different txt settings on both sides! Only host's settings are used and second player can check these settings.
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We don't think +1 cost for slow makes a difference
Slow has moved for Level 2, so it's really makes a difference...
Most revolutionary for me personally will be DD/Fly which are back with some limits...
Quote:
One of the most important thing - creatures gain experience can not be disabled. Its said in the manual, that its hardcoded, but SAG said that it CAN be disabled. I did it in the WOG options, but later in the game the creatures still gained experience.
Yes it doesn't work as should be - can't disable from menu. The solution:
- find TE.ini file in \DATA\ folder
- edit it in Notepad
- find [Upkeep and experience]
- change 1=2 to 1=0 (this will make no tax on army. I'm not sure that such taxes are popular  )
- change 2=50 to 2=0 (this will disable creature experience)
Quote:
I checked the option to eliminate spells as scuttle boat, summon boat etc. but still found such spells in magic shrines.
hm...i don't have answer yet
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted June 19, 2007 11:28 AM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 11:29, 19 Jun 2007.
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My bad. Yes, it's 2nd level. However i would make it 3rd, if only to force might heroes to get wisdom to get it. After all, its one of most devastating spells in the game.
Some not necessary changes include adv.archery change to 30%... when i have seen it i thought..."um....why?" It has no real effect on the game. Small changes that don't do anything serious should have been avoided.
Text box describing mysticism should be simplified to stay in text-tone
"max(10,20%)" should have been written as something like "hero regenerates 20% or 10 spell points per day, whichever is higher. It took me 3-4 readings to figure out what it says.
While they were at it, change to eagle eye could have been done as well.
PS. All I'm writing should be seen as simple "one-player feedback", not as critic in any case.
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted June 19, 2007 11:57 AM |
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Edited by SAG at 12:05, 19 Jun 2007.
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regarding Slow:
Quote:
However i would make it 3rd, if only to force might heroes to get wisdom to get it. After all, its one of most devastating spells in the game.
Actually it's much harder to get Mass Slow on map because:
1) there are no Slow in shrines anymore
2) there are no Slow in spell scrolls (no scrolls at all) anymore
3) no "slow-spell" heroes anymore
4) spell itself is on level 2
5) expert earth is also less easy, because all heroes may learn all magic schools
try it 15-20 games and say if you still need it on level 3 
Quote:
Some not necessary changes include adv.archery change to 30%... when i have seen it i thought..."um....why?" It has no real effect on the game. Small changes that don't do anything serious should have been avoided.
Question "why" is always hard to answer. Even small changes are done after careful consideration of good MP players. I don't know exact reason, but my opinion is that this change was because now towns always have 2nd dwell pre-build. Means Castle/Inferno/Fortress/Conflux will have pretty good advantage.
Quote:
Text box describing mysticism should be simplified to stay in text-tone
yep, agree team should make it more clear.
Quote:
PS. All I'm writing should be seen as simple "one-player feedback", not as critic in any case.
Of course Every new idea should be viewed from different angles, only after discussion diamonds are made
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liophy
Famous Hero
Bulgarian
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posted June 19, 2007 12:37 PM |
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Quote:
Yes it doesn't work as should be - can't disable from menu. The solution:
- find TE.ini file in \DATA\ folder
- edit it in Notepad
- find [Upkeep and experience]
- change 1=2 to 1=0 (this will make no tax on army. I'm not sure that such taxes are popular )
- change 2=50 to 2=0 (this will disable creature experience)
Thanks, that will do the work for me, but how we will promote TE, if its so complicated to set up it right. I already tried to convinced some of my fellow bulgarian players to install TE and some of them were reluctent. People in general are sceptical and if they have to do such fine tunning...
I thing that in the next version this should be main priority - to fix the option to disable creature gain experionse
And a question - what does tax on army? Upkeep?
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 19, 2007 02:23 PM |
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Edited by maretti at 14:45, 19 Jun 2007.
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Even though I dont play atm I feel the need to express my opinion about these changes.
There are some obvious improvements in the T.E. version:
- "Town view", "Hero view", "Upgraded stack hit-n-run","Artefact cheat sell" bugs were fixed
- You can exchange the whole armies by clicking the "Change Army" button on the hero meeting screen. MAJOR improvement.
- Tower - Cloud Castle (giants) doesn't require Altar of Wishes (genies). Probably a good idea to make tower competitive.
- Basic 7th level creatures growth in Conflux is decreased to 1.5 per week. Good thing to get flux back in the game.
- Quick combat without usage of mana. Nice timesaver.
- Shooters can do melee damage without being blocked. Cool
- Creature specialists are more usefull, im not sure health is the right solution though
BUT if it aint broke why fix it?. Examples:
- "Witch Hut visiting will show the dialog window which asks if you want to learn secondary skill." Where is the need for this change?
- "Players will receive gems (instead of sulfur) after capturing NagaBank." Only town that lacks gems is tower. They can get what they need by tradepost (which is often present on snow) or on other temps than jebus by exploring grass areas (magic gardens)
- "Inferno - Pit Fiends upgrade doesn't require Mage Guild" Why this change?, it even makes sense that some magic is needed to get the ability to raise demons
- "Starting heroes will always have three stacks of monsters." Why is this needed?, I could accept that starting heroes allways have at least 2 stacks
- "Logistic specialists will gain 5% bonus to this skill without hero level dependence." The classic misunderstanding that log specs are better than Crag and Taz. They are not.
- "Major change in the spell system." On one hand there are so many spells that are never used, maybe it would be interesting if they came a bit back in the game. On the other hand its dangerous making these changes, just one example, slow is to hard to get, if one player gets it in his guild and the other dosent you have just created a major imbalance in that game.
- "All heroes can get all types of magic." A disaster imo, I like that the heroes are diffrent (its such a satisfaction crushing some noob that picks Tyris as main cause he thinks she rules)
- "Exp armor gives 20% reduction instead of 15%." Does these socalled experts even know what this change will mean? Who are they?
- "Many many more changes that changes very little" These things like lvl 4 magic heroes were no problem, why change them???
As we have discussed many times before regarding the tons of rules ppl came up with trying to balance the game: BALANCING EVERYTHING OUT WILL NOT MAKE A MORE BALANCED GAME. As long as there is a random factor one player will allways have an advantage day 1. Imo you make the most balanced game by having as many "small" imbalances as possible. This way these imbalances will counterbalance each other. Besides one of the things that make h3 great fun is to take maximum advantage of some of the (imbalanced) possibilities the game give you, like leveling Alamar up to teach your main resurection.
Ofcourse you can argue that if all these changes are obtional players can just choose the changes they like, but it would be much better if we had a game that is as close to the original version as possible but with all the obvious improvements so that ppl actually will play the same game. We wanna unite the h3 community not devide it by making ppl play 10 diffrent games. I can only imagine how long time it will take to get a game going if players have to agree which changes they wanna use.
My last point is that most players who are active today know the game pretty well allready and I doubt they have the desire to learn how to use all these details. Most players dont even have the desire to learn the old version in details. So its very likely half the community will stay with the old version.
All in all I believe there are some nice improvements here but there are way to many changes that wont improve the game, they might even do the opposite.
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted June 19, 2007 03:36 PM |
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Very nice and constructive post here maretti. I agree to 95% to all of your statements.
The only thing I disagree is the nagabank issue. Those sulfur rewards are important for 2 towns (Fortress + Dungeon). Both can get their sulfur from medusa stores, which are present on every terrain. But Tower often has problems upgrading their giant building if played on other templates but Jebus. You can't rely on the fact u "hopefully" get grass terrain as 2nd or 3rd area to find mystical gardens/leprechauns.
So I think you either need this change (nagbank --> gems), or u allow mystical gardens on ALL terrains. Especially because Tower needs its gems for mages and genies already. Imagine playing Tower on 160% on other than Jebus...
And refering to slow:
Making it harder to get a specific spell doesn't balance the game more. As maretti mentioned, for the case 1 player gets slow in guild, and the other not, makes it even more unbalanced. And to make it a level 3 spell is for sure meant to be a joke, right?
I liked the idea in Homm2. Slow was level 1, while MASS slow was level 4 and much more expensive. So why don't you keep "slow" where it is, but raise the spellcost up to 15 (for mass-) for example? And maybe duration does not refer to spellpower anymore, but has a fixed number? (like forcefield or firewall...). That way, high knowledge (and "intelligence" of course!) will become much more important.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted June 19, 2007 03:54 PM |
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Edited by SAG at 16:19, 19 Jun 2007.
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Quote:
Thanks, that will do the work for me, but how we will promote TE, if its so complicated to set up it right. I already tried to convinced some of my fellow bulgarian players to install TE and some of them were reluctent. People in general are sceptical and if they have to do such fine tunning...
Right point, people are sceptical and reluctant for changes. Even if they gain benefits with these changes. I personally could install TE 1,5 years ago (first draft version), but i was just too lazy to download these 30 mb (i had dial-up modem at home). Also, i saw that nobody on Gamespy play TE and i didn't know that it's possible to switch versions quickly. However time went, all my russian friends switched to TE, russian community grew a lot during last 2 years to ~200-300 players, team of TE developers is about 5-10 professionals. So now i have no doubts that TE will stay and will be gaining popularity all over the world. For those sceptical people - tell that games on TE are 15-25% faster than on SOD 3.2  (due to much better interface) - that's a lot especially for 2vs2 games. Tell them that annoying bugs are finally fixed, most of them at least. Tell them that on TE there are 4-7 good starting heroes for each town instead of 1-2 on SOD. Tell them that towns are more balanced so they can feel the power of Inferno or Tower and other towns + Necropolis and Conflux are back!
Quote:
I thing that in the next version this should be main priority - to fix the option to disable creature gain experionse
i hope they will fix it
Quote:
And a question - what does tax on army? Upkeep?
Tax on army means you pay 2% of cost of your troops each day. I don't think that it's popular however we may test it as well.
Maretti made good post so i asked Horn (lead of developers) to post comments in few days
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted June 19, 2007 04:50 PM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 16:54, 19 Jun 2007.
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Quote:
And to make it a level 3 spell is for sure meant to be a joke, right?
Nope, was dead serious. We are having slow as L3 here and it plays very well. In fact, it was one of the best changes imho.
I don't see a problem of it being that high level except one, which is the same thing marreti said. It would make imbalance if one player gets it and other doesn't. However this is solved by increasing slow's chances to appear.
Back on topic.
I noticed one more thing in T.E and it is good. Removal of confirmation window for picking up resources and similar actions is neat. Fastens things a bit
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doom3d
Known Hero
Avatar of general Z
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posted June 19, 2007 07:41 PM |
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Quote:
I liked the idea in Homm2. Slow was level 1, while MASS slow was level 4 and much more expensive. So why don't you keep "slow" where it is, but raise the spellcost up to 15 (for mass-) for example? And maybe duration does not refer to spellpower anymore, but has a fixed number? (like forcefield or firewall...). That way, high knowledge (and "intelligence" of course!) will become much more important.
It is possible to write a script, that dinamically changes the price of mass spells (slow, haste..), according to the number of effected stacks.
Something like 8+2*n for n stack. 
It is also possible to change the duration of those spells via ERM.
But, it would give a boost to might, compaired to magic heroes..
I prefer the magic side, please keep them alive.
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maretti
Responsible
Supreme Hero
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posted June 20, 2007 11:16 AM |
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I dont get why ppl find it so important to even out might and magic heroes. I think the game works just fine now that only might heroes are usefull as mains. Battles with only massspells or no spell at all are imo so much more fun than 7 rounds of implo and game over.
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck
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