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| Thread: Might vs magic |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 08, 2007 07:22 PM |
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Edited by sdfx at 19:24, 08 Oct 2007.
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Might vs magic
What is might and what is magic? Who would suck most with no magic at all? First I thought that academy is most magic because of a hero build(enlightenment, sorcery, 2-3 magic schools), library, stats(45% for knowledge and 30% for spellpower), skills(all magic schools, sorcery and enlightenment are easy to get), MotW doubles magic effects etc. But then it hit me that spellpower is far more important for a "true" magician, artificer itself has nothing to do with magic and there are many spells that support mainly might oriented heroes.
Below an ordered subjective list starting with a most magic hero class and ending with a most might hero class.
1. Warlock - primary stat: (empowered) SPELLPOWER
His creatures are weak, artifact merchant is needed badly for magic boosting artifacts(knowledge, spellpower, +50 elemental damage), he can't rely on his creatures - spells are all he got. Hit and run + empowered (lucky) destructive spells win games.
2. Necromancer - primary stat: SPELLPOWER
His creatures are weak(but numerous thx to necromancy and (before 3.0) haunted mines). Spells(phoenix, raise dead, fire trap, puppet, frenzy, mass ones) and durable enough troops win games.
3. Wizard - primary stat: KNOWLEDGE that later can be used to boost might
His creatures are strong, artifact merchant can be used effectively to get might or magic artifacts depending on a matchup. MotW is very magic but it can serve might purposes very well too(phantom forces). Both spells(they do well vs might heroes) and (artificered) creatures(they do well vs magic heroes) win games.
4. Demonlord - primary stat: ATTACK for ballista ownage
His creatures are average but can gate. Demonlords are true war machine experts. Both spells(dark+mana drain do well vs might heroes) and creatures(gating, high attack do well vs magic heroes) win games.
5. Runemage - primary stat: DEFENSE for might durability and optimal rune usage
His creatures are very strong, runes give a ridiculous might boost - they fix perfectly every might disadvantage(low damage, low speed). Mass haste and runes win games.
6. Ranger - primary stat: unfortunately DEFENSE for might durability.
His creatures are very strong, very fast and will act first. Mass haste and first strike with a lot +speed(tactics, familiar ground, windstrider boots) and +damage(luck, favored list, attack skill, attack artifacts) win games.
7. Knight - primary stat: DEFENSE for might durability
His creatures are very strong and very balanced(I mean att/def ratio and working together - marksmen shoot, griffins battle dive shooters, inq bless markies etc). Knights win games purely by might superiority(great stats, more powerful and more numerous troops) and mass haste.
8. Barbarian - primary stat: ATTACK for might superiority.
His creatures are very strong with bloodrage. Barbarians can't even learn magic - winning by might is all they got.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 08, 2007 07:31 PM |
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Pretty much how I would have asserted  Yes wizards have artificer and can buy artifacts, necro and dungeon are worse without spells. Runemages have runes anyway and sylvan is better than haven because it can at least resist spells with unicorns and easy to get luck skill. Of course the first 3 would have lousy creeping too Except academy that can pursue warmachines boosted from good knowledge.
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted October 08, 2007 09:04 PM |
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Quote:
5. Runemage - primary stat: DEFENSE for might durability and optimal rune usage
His creatures are very strong, runes give a ridiculous might boost - they fix perfectly every might disadvantage(low damage, low speed). Mass haste and runes win games.
Hmm? His creatures are pretty weak. Its the runes and the heroes Stats that makes them good. And magic ofcourse. But else your right
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 08, 2007 09:14 PM |
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Ok not exactly weak but with some rune help they overcompensate even.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 08, 2007 09:33 PM |
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Shieldguards, bears and magmas are very strong(magmas look imba ) and the rest doesn't shine - true. But overall, I just had to consider them very strong.
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VokialBG
Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
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posted October 08, 2007 09:35 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 21:39, 08 Oct 2007.
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Quote:
1. Warlock - primary stat: (empowered) SPELLPOWER
His creatures are weak, artifact merchant is needed badly for magic boosting artifacts(knowledge, spellpower, +50 elemental damage), he can't rely on his creatures - spells are all he got. Hit and run + empowered (lucky) destructive spells win games.
Wtf weak? The creatures in Dungeon are the elites in Homm 5,this race is quality... His creatures are low on numbers but not weak!
Quote:
2. Necromancer - primary stat: SPELLPOWER
His creatures are weak(but numerous thx to necromancy and (before 3.0) haunted mines). Spells(phoenix, raise dead, fire trap, puppet, frenzy, mass ones) and durable enough troops win games.
Probably we can cross off raise dead and haunted mines
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5. Runemage - primary stat: DEFENSE for might durability and optimal rune usage
His creatures are very strong, runes give a ridiculous might boost - they fix perfectly every might disadvantage(low damage, low speed). Mass haste and runes win games.
Hmmm his creatures are more average, but with the biggest population from town in the game
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 08, 2007 09:55 PM |
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Dungeon's creatures are very weak because of their growth.
assassin = 7 growth. Should I treat them as lvl3 creature? Let's try it and compare them to master hunters.. or maybe better not.
Same goes for furies - gowth 5 -> very weak lvl 4.
Minos are weak anyway.
Grim raiders are excellent - 1 exception.
Deep hydras are only good because they fit warlock so well(durabilty, can save mana vs AI shooters).
Shadow matriarchs are uselful but generally pathetic compared to other lvl6. Their spells are good but nothing too spectacular.
Black dragons are kind of weak because they are very expensive(dwelling) and can be attacked easily by something strong before they move.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 08, 2007 10:10 PM |
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Actually, if you look at the difficulty of the Dungeon Tier1 and compare it to other factions ...
Scout = 180
Assassin = 295
This rivals Haven Tier3, is between Tier2 and Tier3 of Inferno, is just below Tier3 of Necropolis, Sylvan has a slightly better Tier2 and it ranges between Tier2 and Tier3 for Academy as well as Fortress.
And the other Dungeon creatures are similar. Dungeon has the toughest creatures in the mix, hence their low grow rate. Take them on equal numbers and Dungeon would own any other faction around.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 08, 2007 10:22 PM |
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The point is that their growth is too low. For example, base growth of 7-8 for furies would be ok. But no.. they had to get 5.
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted October 08, 2007 10:36 PM |
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Just thought id say, if you go and edit a post theres a teensy little box at the top that says delete post.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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pinkspear
Known Hero
Crazy like a fool
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posted October 08, 2007 10:39 PM |
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@roy
Thanks I didn't notice that!
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted October 08, 2007 11:21 PM |
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Quote:
The point is that their growth is too low. For example, base growth of 7-8 for furies would be ok. But no.. they had to get 5.
40-60% more furies? They already deal insane damage as is, although you have to use them carefully to avoid losses when creeping.
Dungeon is fine, really. Don't forget that you can boost fury /minotaur growth by sacrifing creatures, and if they are other dungeon creatures. If I recall correctly, it doesn't need much to raise the growth by 1, which quickly pays out. Not sure if the growth gained this way stacks with fort growth boost though.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 08, 2007 11:26 PM |
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Yes it does. How often do you get 300hp stacks to join in dungeon games? It's pretty much useless...For the same cost they could boost furies by +1 or +2 and minotaurs +1 without breaking the balance.
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted October 09, 2007 03:07 AM |
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Quote:
Dungeon's creatures are very weak because of their growth.
assassin = 7 growth. Should I treat them as lvl3 creature? Let's try it and compare them to master hunters..
Well compare with the best shooter, it's not "fair". We can compare the new stalker
with a similar level 3: the hellhound!
Similar stats, right? But stalker has 2 more abilities: poison and invisibility...oh and cost less!
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roy-algriffin
Supreme Hero
Chocolate ice cream zealot
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posted October 09, 2007 04:01 AM |
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Notice that the hellhounds are unupgraded though, a lot of units gain good abilities only when upgraded. And id rather have 3 headed attack over poison and invisibility, bar some exceptions.
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"Am i a demon? No im a priest of the light! THE BLOODY RED LIGHT"
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted October 09, 2007 04:32 AM |
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Notice than invisibilty allow cross battlefield easily (very good against shooters), strike with no retaliation too (+ poison). Cerberus cost +60% and need town level 7 (6 + hellhound dwelling).
I don't know cost of the dungeon dwellings in TotE, but actually:
School of the Unseen Hand = 400 golds + 5 woods
School of the Black Heart = 1200 golds + 5 woods
Total = 1600 golds + 10 woods
In TotE (demo):
Howling Kennels = 1200 golds + 10 woods + 2 sulfurs
Raging Kennels = 2500 golds + 15 woods + 5 sulfurs
Total = 3700 golds + 25 woods + 7 sulfurs
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R-b-t3r
Hired Hero
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posted October 09, 2007 09:28 AM |
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Edited by R-b-t3r at 09:31, 09 Oct 2007.
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Quote:
Quote:
Dungeon's creatures are very weak because of their growth.
assassin = 7 growth. Should I treat them as lvl3 creature? Let's try it and compare them to master hunters..
Well compare with the best shooter, it's not "fair". We can compare the new [url=http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1851065692/m/3151093165]stalker[/url]
with a similar level 3: the hellhound!
Similar stats, right? But stalker has 2 more abilities: poison and invisibility...oh and cost less!
Your assesment is wrong because you do not consider the creature as part of a larger line-up but as a single creature. I play warlock often and i have noticed that he lacks an inexpensive unit to tank in the beginning. Would you ever tank with any unit which has a growth of 7 per week and a cost of 100 apiece? Or Furies maybe? Then what? Minos with pathetic defence and health pre-ToTE?
Your only tank is deep hydra and by the time you get it, most of the early and truly important creeping has finished.
I m not saying that dungeon is weak or sth but it's lineup is strange to say the least. eg.It was supposed to be a might-magic hybrid with the warlock's high attack skill, but attack needs LARGE NUMBERS to be effective which are difficult to achieve when fighting a human opponent.
More or less i agree with what Sdfx has already said, Grim raiders rule, the other creatures are not that strong in human vs human combat. Furies die like flies, assassins are very few to actually influence the combat, minos are only there to soak the attack or retal, hydras to gain time, matriarchs to cast spells only. Dragons you'll rarely build unless you play a rich map. Hopefully we will see a might aproach in ToTE.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 09, 2007 09:35 AM |
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Quote:
The point is that their growth is too low. For example, base growth of 7-8 for furies would be ok. But no.. they had to get 5.
Their growth is low right because they are (much) more powerful than their equal-Tier counterparts in other factions. I am arguing that it's balanced the way it is.
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R-b-t3r
Hired Hero
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posted October 09, 2007 10:15 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The point is that their growth is too low. For example, base growth of 7-8 for furies would be ok. But no.. they had to get 5.
Their growth is low right because they are (much) more powerful than their equal-Tier counterparts in other factions. I am arguing that it's balanced the way it is.
If it were 6 or 7 furies per week would it be unbalanced? The difference is slight and unimportant in the first few weeks but would make furies effective in longer games. Same goes for assassins. 1-2 assasins more per week wouldn't make dungeon imba.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted October 09, 2007 10:47 AM |
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Just wanted to say that warlock's creatures are far from weak. Most of them are the best for their tier.
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