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| Thread: Might vs magic |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 10, 2007 02:00 PM |
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But a warlock has to attack while his empowered spells are still very hot. If not, then haven may simply take their sweet time to lvl up and train more and more troops. So, the battle will be most likely on grass anyway.
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 10, 2007 02:11 PM |
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I thought we were discussing creature strength here, not warlock strength. Your strategy evolves around extremely high SP, and hopefully enough mana (highest I ever got was around 200) to keep casting while your troops survive. That's one possibility, in this case hydras, raiders and maybe furies are your most money efficient units, I agree. Raise dead is very good to have too, since it will allow you to keep fighting even after all of your troops have normally been exterminated. But that's not yet an army, it's merely a few sacrificable units that let you cast a couple of times before you go down or cast armagedon as you say. I'm really talking about unit strength, an it has nothing to do with the fact that you prefer spending your money in expensive artifacts, while I rely more on whatether I'll find on the map.
By week 5 or 6 you can get up to 7-9 black dragons and they're a force no one will neglect on the battlefield.
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r-b-t3r
Hired Hero
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posted October 10, 2007 02:28 PM |
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Quote:
I thought we were discussing creature strength here, not warlock strength. Your strategy evolves around extremely high SP, and hopefully enough mana (highest I ever got was around 200) to keep casting while your troops survive.
You can do better, i had 240 by week 4 in heroic difficulty in battle for honor....
I'm really talking about unit strength, an it has nothing to do with the fact that you prefer spending your money in expensive artifacts, while I rely more on whatether I'll find on the map.
By week 5 or 6 you can get up to 7-9 black dragons and they're a force no one will neglect on the battlefield.
Warlock doesn't have the units to field a good army. He lacks initiative so he gets hit first. He takes a good hit because he lacks defence.
WOW warlock must be a nice might hero!! 
By week 5 the game is decided already against haven. You either hit him at least once with hit an run or you 'll never make it once he attacks you.
Better spend you money on artifacts. On the same game i had about 30 spell power, and all these by week 4 which was not that difficult.
30 spellpower empowered implosion (1860 dmg, 3720 with luck, and 2790 and 5580 with slippers respectively) is a force to be reckoned with whereas 9 dragons are one hit from havens paladins.
Can 9 dragons kill 30 palas in one round? I really doubt it!
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 10, 2007 02:40 PM |
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Edited by sdfx at 14:41, 10 Oct 2007.
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Hmmm, yes the creature itself is very strong. I think only magmas and emeralds are superior. You said:
Quote:
So, by week 5 or 6 you can get up to 7-9 black dragons and they're a force no one will neglect on the battlefield
true BUT only when they would be lead by a might hero with:
-might skills
-might stats
-light magic : doesn't work on BD which is VERY bad, but light is still very good overall because it works on other dungeon troops. Mass haste fits very nicely to matriarchs' slow. They can cast tighteous might so mass divine strength may be worth it.
So, if dungeon had a true strong might hero then BD would be very strong. The point is they don't have one.. and probably won't.
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 10, 2007 03:01 PM |
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True 9 blackies won't take down 30 palas, 15 with luck is feasable though. But 30 palas won't take down 9 blackies in one shot either...
In any case I won't argue that you won't rule the world with mage guild lvl5 and 30 sp and 240 mana at week 4, ofcourse you will and no faction would be able to show an army rivaling that kind of power. But it still doesn't make the dragon a poor unit, it just shows that in your strategy you don't use the ressources to build the dragon vault, whihc again are 2 different things.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 10, 2007 03:58 PM |
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Edited by sdfx at 15:59, 10 Oct 2007.
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Quote:
True 9 blackies won't take down 30 palas, 15 with luck is feasable though. But 30 palas won't take down 9 blackies in one shot either...
Klaus with exp attack and 5 morale, retribution.
Let's assume that palas move first and black dragon's defense is the same(although normally it would be higher but on the other hand I assumed a bit "unfair" 5 moral..)
9 BD hp = 2160
Lvl 20-21 Klaus' 30 pala strike
= 30*25*1.5(exp attack*retribution)*2(joust) = 2250 with no luck
Warlock is a magic hero and he DOES make black dragons weak - going might way with a warlock is just asking to lose.
Simply put: trying do do might things with a magic hero is suicidal.
Same for artifacts - warlock prefers magic artifacts instead of might artifacts: Slippers(+50% earth damage) >> dwarven greaves(anti-slow, +4 attack)
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r-b-t3r
Hired Hero
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posted October 10, 2007 04:52 PM |
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Quote:
True 9 blackies won't take down 30 palas, 15 with luck is feasable though. But 30 palas won't take down 9 blackies in one shot either...
In any case I won't argue that you won't rule the world with mage guild lvl5 and 30 sp and 240 mana at week 4, ofcourse you will and no faction would be able to show an army rivaling that kind of power. But it still doesn't make the dragon a poor unit, it just shows that in your strategy you don't use the ressources to build the dragon vault, whihc again are 2 different things.
Look i m not saying that blackies are worthless, i love them but i simply don't play them
In my example i invested 13000 gold in the only good artifacts in my merchant which were the slippers, the beginer's wand, and a necromancer's helm. I bought them as quickly as i could afford to, and they increased my creeping power twofold. For the record i had a robe of sar issus which i found on the map, but i also had bought the +2power armor. As you can see a significant portion of my early power came from arties which also helped me in the long run.
Dragons could have never given me such an early advantage, and warlock needs to build his advantage early to survive. The rest i believe are self explanatory.
Dragons do help in the long run but you should have already done your dirty work (hit and run) before you bring these guys with you. And if money isn't enough for all units i ALWAYS buy all of the lizards first.
These guys do damage and i mean they do damage (even against might).
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted October 10, 2007 05:20 PM |
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Quote:
Let's assume that palas move first and black dragon's defense is the same(although normally it would be higher but on the other hand I assumed a bit "unfair" 5 moral..)
9 BD hp = 2160
Lvl 20-21 Klaus' 30 pala strike
= 30*25*1.5(exp attack*retribution)*2(joust) = 2250 with no luck
In final battle (or during a hit and run), you don't need assassins/stalkers: take 2 stacks of 1 blood furie! Move they just ahead your blacks, so Paladins can't charge even if griffins kill 1 furie. After that you can cast powerful spell on the Paladins and attack, wait or defend with your blacks.
I do the same with nightmares: they're only use to block mouvements and protect your other troops. No way to attack with them against Haven.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 10, 2007 06:22 PM |
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I was just showing how ridiculous Klaus' damage can be.. Normally:
a) there are no blackies
b) paladins are split
c) maybe split griffins(your single fury split example is best countered this way) and maybe split marksmen
d) squires and conscripts may not be worth it
e) angels suck
The point is to look(the best is to attack a warlock with a scout) at warlock's stats(I mean defense) and with gathered knowlegde about the enemy's army, a haven player should split his troops so that they can kill ~50% of a given warlock's stack:
-a "weak" haven stack should be able to kill ~50-60+% troops in a weak dungeon's stack
-a strong haven stack should be able to kill ~50-60+% troops in a "strong" dungeon's stack
This way luck skill is not "wasted"(suicidal scout also gives information about his own luck: if it's negative then a warlock is using those annoying -2 luck artifacts) that much because it doesn't overkill so it really helps to do the damage.
The better guessed/computed(hydras are tough so one pala stack should be "adjusted" to kill them) by a haven player is the damage, the more of warlock's forces is simply erased in no time. That's why trying to go a might way(meaning going for a late game) with a warlock is a suicide vs haven.
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted October 11, 2007 01:35 PM |
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Even without blackies, furie can protect your hydras/raiders.
If Paladins are split they're more vulnerable to AoE spells.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 11, 2007 03:12 PM |
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So? Paladins will charge and mix with dungeon troops anyway. Still, arma is a big threat so a too big split can be very bad. This makes imperial split even more important: not only do they kill those protecting furies but also they can battledive at some point preventing a warlock from suiciding himself and his army(by arma) to win the battle.
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 11, 2007 03:59 PM |
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Edited by kermit at 16:18, 11 Oct 2007.
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Klaus is sure deadly with those paladins, nothing to say about that.
But I still keep my faith in the black dragon. For me it has proven to be my most reliable unit on the battlefield. I love it's dark magic immunity making it invulnerable to pupet master controll and impossible to slow. Even if your army is torn by spells and you've run out of mana, the black dragon is still there, dealing tremendous damage with firebreath. It's also the only dungeon flying unit. Making it irreplacable in castle assault. 
Concerning confrontation with heaven, I already said that I'd avoid facing heaven player out in the open grass where he's strong. I'd prefer atacking him in his castle or on neutral ground maybe with tactics to limit his movement range. 
On another subject, I'm not sure it's such a good idea to use furies to block the way to raiders, heaven player could just as well ignore them and atack your other units, while the raiders would be standing there unable to atack!! Griffons could even battle dive them before they get to go! 
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted October 11, 2007 05:02 PM |
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Paladins will charge and mix with dungeon troops anyway.
But you gain 0,5 turn (minimum: wait or move+moral) and so your hero can cast a spell. A single Land mines with high SP changes the battle issue. And in TotE warlocks can learn Swift Mind and so play before Paladins!
Quote:
This makes imperial split even more important: not only do they kill those protecting furies
If they do, they maybe block passage to Paladins too.
I add the rocks/cracks/boles/... on the battlefield are huge help to magic heros.
Quote:
Klaus is sure deadly with those paladins, nothing to say about that.
Same. When they can charge it's the one shoot  .
Quote:
On another subject, I'm not sure it's such a good idea to use furies to block the way to raiders
You don't need to place furies next to your troops, it works with a 2-X spaces too, and use terrain configuration.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 12, 2007 11:40 AM |
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Quote:
And in TotE warlocks can learn Swift Mind and so play before Paladins!
Nah, swift mind belongs to log and taking log is pretty hard for a warlock because it only pays off when creeping/breaking is good enough. Dungeon is genetrally the best when attacking any faction ASAP with empowered destructive(early hit and run > late hit and run). Summoning can be a great aid when it helps to break and attack earlier or when the shackle risk is high. So, a warlock needs destructive, maybe summoning(map dependant), he definitely needs enlightenment->intelligence and then most likely sorcery.
Still, maybe dropping sorcery wouldn't hurt that much: it doesn't make casts stronger and it doesn't make the first cast faster. So, a sorcery hero has a starting:
10 initiative/(1-random_starting_ATB) =
10 or
~10.5 or
11.1(1) or
~11.76 or
12.5 or
13.3(3) initiative
and then after first empowered cast he a hero with sorcery has:
10/0.7 = ~14.3 initiative if he casts regular spells
Anyway, hit and run with 1 strong empowered spell early enough is very powerful, so maybe getting exp log(pathfinding can be huge) just to attack faster and reach some arties faster is the way to go.
But then again, swift mind would work perfectly with sorcery.. So, taking log after sorcery may be the best. But then again, warlock's luck is very attractive etc.
Generally, taking log too early(instead of sorcery or luck) is risky. Probably, too risky. Sorcery benefits(easier creeping, more mana, faster 2nd+ spell) will most likely outweight log advantages(attacking faster, maybe getting more stuff from map).
Quote:
If they do, they maybe block passage to Paladins too.
I add the rocks/cracks/boles/... on the battlefield are huge help to magic heros.
Yeah, 1 stupid rock can be stronger than the whole dungeon line-up combined together.
So sometimes:
1 rock helping warlock >>> whole dungeon lineup helping warlock
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 12, 2007 01:17 PM |
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Edited by kermit at 13:20, 12 Oct 2007.
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I wouldn't say that logistics is bad for warlock. In your rush scenario logistics would mean faster creeping, and faster atacking the oponent. This is preferable to waiting for 6 lucky lvl ups for warlocks luck to show up. Sorcery is fine too, but a first cast advantage may decimate big stacks before they can even get to move. In fact base initiative for warlock would be 12.5 giving him a big chance to cast meteor shower on palas and marksmen before they get to go, which might turn out decisive.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted October 12, 2007 01:32 PM |
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Quote:
In fact base initiative for warlock would be 12.5 giving him a big chance to cast meteor shower on palas and marksmen before they get to go, which might turn out decisive.
Not "might turn out decisive", would definitely turn out decisive. I thought they got rid of the "mass haste" strategy but it looks like whoever goes first wins in hereos 5 as well as heroes 3.
This is why people are complaining about the randomness at the start of combat. On the other hand if you take that out, the same factions are alwaysfavored.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 12, 2007 05:17 PM |
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Swift mind warlock's base initiative would be 10/0.75 = 13.3(3)
Log/sorcery choice should be based on creeps on the map. If sorcery is not really needed to take AI out(unlikely), then log is good.
But if log means creeping and getting stuck(IMO, very likely) vs shooters/casters/strong guards then sorcery is much better. Also, now warlocks can get arcane excellence(+2 spellpower, +100 mana) which can be very crucial at some point - all that (summoning-maybe) and empowered destructive spells may be used in final battle or to break something very tough. But then again, someone can have advanced sorcery and then take basic log etc. Really depends..
Not to mention that now going for ignite makes a lot of sense now - master of fire has always been good, secrets of destruction gives a spell and +2 knowledge.
Fire warriors(they block) may be very useful vs 2x2 creeps etc.
Warlock's luck in fact requires 7 level ups(3+3+useless dark ritual) so it doesn't look that great.
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grow
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 12, 2007 08:42 PM |
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yeah so what about might vs magic?
this seem to have turn into pro/con dungeon
everyones had enough time to cry about dungeon growth
and all since H5 was out...get over it...we in tote now
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nothing is predictable
grow me
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grow
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 12, 2007 10:10 PM |
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and magic in theory would/should always win, but i know nothing yet of these antimagic skills of the orcs lol, but otherwise, magic win
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nothing is predictable
grow me
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 13, 2007 12:32 AM |
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Quote:
Swift mind warlock's base initiative would be 10/0.75 = 13.3(3)
That's not quite right. Swift Mind adds 0.25 ATB but you still get the RANDOM[0;0.25] bonus, so your average ATB value will be 0.375, corresponding to an Initiative of 10/(1-0.375) = 16.
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What will happen now?
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