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| Thread: Might vs magic |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted October 13, 2007 09:35 AM |
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Edited by yasmiel at 09:47, 13 Oct 2007.
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Hero with swift mind gets +60% bonus initiative on average, but all creatures get a bonus of 12.5% so effective initiative for first turn is less than 16 (closer to 14) but is still considerable.
I wonder did Nival manage to make swift mind work with pounder hero..
That is excellent oportunity for a bug 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 13, 2007 10:09 AM |
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Quote:
Hero with swift mind gets +60% bonus initiative on average, but all creatures get a bonus of 12.5% so effective initiative for first turn is less than 16 (closer to 14) but is still considerable.
True ... I did not count on that.
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What will happen now?
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 13, 2007 11:47 AM |
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Quote:
yeah so what about might vs magic? this seem to have turn into pro/con dungeon everyones had enough time to cry about dungeon growth
Because I claimed that dungeon's pros are:
1. Magic + use MAGIC arties*. Might arties, unless ridiculous(staff of netherimbaness) are inferior to magic ones.
2. Dungeon's creatures are weak overall so a warlock has to go for magic: might way = asking to lose.
3. As a warlock, use money to go for spellpower/knowlegde from merchant with the money - not on BDs. So, go BDs = go might = asking to lose.
Hero's starting initiative without swift mind:
For 0.00 ATB: 10/1.00 = 10.00
For 0.05 ATB: 10/0.95 = 10.50
For 0.10 ATB: 10/0.90 = 11.11
For 0.15 ATB: 10/0.85 = 11.76
For 0.20 ATB: 10/0.80 = 12.50
For 0.25 ATB: 10/0.75 = 13.33
Average starting initiative without swift mind: SUM_init/6 = 11.54
Hero's starting initiative with swift mind:
For 0.25 ATB: 10/0.75 = 13.33
For 0.30 ATB: 10/0.70 = 14.29
For 0.35 ATB: 10/0.65 = 15.38
For 0.40 ATB: 10/0.60 = 16.67
For 0.45 ATB: 10/0.55 = 18.18
For 0.50 ATB: 10/0.50 = 20.00
Average starting initiative with swift mind: SUM_init/6 = 16.31
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 13, 2007 02:40 PM |
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Black dragons werent bad before ToTE. They were very expensive but very often their value was worth it. Now Lvl 7s are cheaper so they are even better. Going black dragons doesnt meant going might(its dependant on hero skills)
With right skills warlock doesnt need knowledge artifacts, he needs defense and spellpower artifacts.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 14, 2007 12:18 AM |
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IMO, a warlock should strike ASAP with right skills and right arties so that BDs and defense don't matter anyway.
early game dungeon >> mid game dungeon >>>>> late game dungeon
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted October 14, 2007 02:59 AM |
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Ye your logic is all right but defense still is important and BDs additional hit points and firepower are still important. Its not always possible win rushing , in that case you need to be prepared for later game.
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grow
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 14, 2007 08:03 AM |
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Edited by grow at 08:05, 14 Oct 2007.
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i'd have to say one of the main negative points of dungeon is
that blood maidens have no hp( 16 i believe )....thats like pathetic
even just 20 would be a lot better, but 16 gets crushed by even weak magic, they not durable at all, and the stupid citadel/castle towers always go for em too and always get several cause they hp suck, just like djinns when u attack castle, they get owned by towers alone
@sdfx - i decided go with it and give a tear for dungeon 
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nothing is predictable
grow me
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted October 14, 2007 10:10 AM |
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Man, there must be some difference between each creaure. If all'd be 'balanced' the game was just boring. Some people have Palas, others Furies, yet another Warlords with rune of Berserkering and Battle Rage on 'em...
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted October 14, 2007 11:43 AM |
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Quote:
i'd have to say one of the main negative points of dungeon is
that blood maidens have no hp( 16 i believe )....thats like pathetic
even just 20 would be a lot better, but 16 gets crushed by even weak magic, they not durable at all, and the stupid citadel/castle towers always go for em too and always get several cause they hp suck, just like djinns when u attack castle, they get owned by towers alone
True, they are fragile, but they also deal a lot of damage and can barely be hit by melee creatures if you use them right. In fact, they are perfect for Raise Death or Phantom Forces abuse.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 14, 2007 12:12 PM |
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SKILLS
Might skills: attack, defense, leadership, luck, war machines and light magic.
Magic skills: Sorcery, dark, destructive, summoning.
Might for might, magic for magic heroes: logistics, enlightenment
Might racial skills: all except: (1 line below)
Magic racial skill: irresistable magic
I assumed:
1. For a warlock luck = magic
2. Dark = magic
3. Light = might
4. TotE NEW: a ranger has a 6% chance for attack, 4% for sorcery
5. Ranger's war machines + imbue ballista = might.
I added up all perceage chances of skills of each hero class:
Barbarian: 100% might, 0% magic
Knight: 86% might, 14% magic
Ranger: 84% might, 18% magic
Rune: 82% might, 18% magic
Demon: 72% might, 28% magic
Wizard: 50% might, 50% magic
Necro: 41% might, 59% magic
Warlock: 31% might, 69% magic
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 14, 2007 12:53 PM |
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That is an interesting approach, actually. I think there are a couple of errors in your models - for one thing, even though Light Magic does work as a Might booster, you cannot consider it a Might skill, it is a magic school after all. Furthermore, considering the Class skills like Artificer as Might gives a skewing towards might, which will probably account for the odd ratios of Wizard and Rune Mage.
I would rather do the calculations like this:
Class Skills: Not considered.
Might Skills: Attack, Defence, Luck, Logistics, War Machines, Leadership.
Magic Skills: Sorcery, Enlightenment, Light, Dark, Destructive, Summoning.
I know Enlightenment sort of works for Might with Might heroes, but the Perks are Magic none-the-less - probable exception Barbarian.
This gives the following numbers:
Barbarian: 96 % Might, 4 % Magic.
Knight: 73 % Might, 27 % Magic.
Demon Lord: 64 % Might, 36 % Magic.
Ranger: 62 % Might, 38 % Magic.
Rune Mage: 62 % Might, 38 % Magic.
Warlock: 48 % Might, 52 % Magic.
Necromancer: 38 % Might, 62 % Magic.
Wizard: 27 % Might, 73 % Magic.
Notice that according to this model, it seems like the Warlock is actually intended as some sort of hybrid between Might and Magic - which is also obvious from the fact that his two favored skills are Attack and Destructive Magic. The Warlock is the only class with one favored skill in each group (one is Might, the other Magic). Obviously, people don't use him as such, but I get the fealing that the hyper-magic approach most Dungeon players use was not what Nival originally intended with this class.
It is also interesting, that there seems to be some sort of mirror between the two groups, although Might Heroes for some reason a more numerous - not considering Barbarian, the other classes fall as either Hybrid (~ 50/50), Might or Magic favoured (~ 62/38), or Might or Magic dominant (~ 73/27). However, Nival destroyed their own systemacy by making 3 classes Might Favored (Demon Lord, Ranger, Rune Mage) but only one class Magic Favored (Necromancer). It seems it would have made more sense to make the Rune Mage (who is after all a mage) Magic Favored, but in the end they made them more Might oriented with Defence and War Machines as favored skills. I wonder whether all this is purely coincidence or actually a concious decision by the developers.
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What will happen now?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 14, 2007 01:27 PM |
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You could argue that the Barbarian counterparts to the 4 Magic Schools are Magic skills as well. That would change the ratio for Barbarians. Considering those skills do nothing to add to the Might power of the faction, I would consider them under the Magic group of skills.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted October 14, 2007 02:29 PM |
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Alchis take seems more to what I had in mind as well. Though the racials could be taken into account as well. Then, the Dwarfs specialty being rune-magic, that would increase the magic percentages for them. Rune magic may not be as sophisticated as the normal spellschools, but magic nevertheless.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 14, 2007 02:40 PM |
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Yes, I think your model represents perfectly how it should look.
1. Light should be strong for magic heroes too. Now, this divine vengeance spell may actually help a lot but there should be many other spellpower dependant spells. I had to call light as might mainly because it's great at killing magic heros later:
might hero + master of wrath > magic hero
Also, light is a main tool for a wizards to give them might superiority vs necromancers or warlocks. Of course, a magic hero can mass haste too but it will just give him more turns: effect is basically the same.
Light is also sometimes needed to allow might to work(mass cleansing vs dark).
And last but not least: might with light >>> might with no light
2. I consider log as magic because it means more lvl ups and more artifacts. Magic heroes will get more magic stats and will focus on getting magic arties while might heroes will get more might stats and will focus on getting might arties.
Log should be more might because mages should be good at fighting not many fights but be capable of fighting something strong. Might should be about fighting many fights but with not that strong guards like mages.
3. I consider enlightenment as might/magic because IMO the most important thing about it are stats - perks are not that importnat. Intelligence is great but mana is used by both might and magic heroes.
Funny, because library of enlightenment gives only knowledge and spellpower.. so library = magic. Maybe enlightenment should be this way too..
4. Runic magic is called magic but IMO, it has nothing to with it: runes have no connection with spellpower. No spellpower = no magic for me. Also, runemages = happy about late and late game spellpower is just bad. Runic magic should be magic - they should have some connection with the stats - especially with spellpower. 1 stupid resource/rune is far from the greatest solution..
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 14, 2007 03:12 PM |
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I should add, perhaps, that I understand your thinking and even agree with you to quite a large extent - like I said the other day, Light Magic is different from the other schools, because it goes better with Might than with Magic Heroes (although Dark falls somewhat in between).
However, those who know me (ask Elvin) will know that I have a strong habit, almost boardering to the compulsive, to put everything into systems with symmetry and order. That is why, in my perfect little world, it makes so nice sense to have 6 Might Skills and 6 Magic Skills. I'm also pretty sure that was how the developers intended it - but that does not change the fact that some of them like Logistics and Enlightenment fall somewhere in between, in both or neither of the groups. Indeed, with the introduction of a perk like Swift Mind, Logistics moves drastically into the Magic domain (personally, I would have put Swift Mind as a perk in Enlightenment for the very same reason, besides the fact that it thematically goes well with that skill as well). One can also argue that Luck moves toward Magic with Warlock's Luck (now widely available) - so certainly, nothing is quite as clear cut as I'd like it to be.
Also, the Class Skills are quite dificult to place. Obviously, skills like Necromancy and Artificer are Magic Skills in the sense that they work through Magic. Same with Runic Magic. That does not change the fact that their effect is more inclined towards Might, in the sense that they increase unit "output". I would still consider these skills Magic, however - but that's a subject for debate. Again, it also makes sense because these four classes - Necromancer, Wizard, Warlock, and Rune Mage - are the Magic classes, thus establishing symmetry with 4 Magic classes and 4 Might classes.  That is no argument, however, to say that my view is more correct than yours.
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What will happen now?
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 15, 2007 11:43 AM |
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From my point of view a magic skill is one that benefits from or increases the value of spell power or knowledge. Low level light magic does not benefit from high spell power or knowledge only the mastery counts. The same could be said for dark magic, low level dark magic (lvls 1-3) is not spell power or knowledge dependent, but high lvl is in some way.
I think it would ballance the game more if there was a stronger dependancy on spell power/knowledge for light and dark magic schools. Mass spells should also be made harder to cast and definitely making the ATB cost higher for them. It just doesn't make any sense to have mass haste cost so little mana and only use up half of ATB... it should be like 2x ATB.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 15, 2007 11:58 AM |
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Quote:
However, those who know me (ask Elvin) will know that I have a strong habit, almost boardering to the compulsive, to put everything into systems with symmetry and order.
Guilty 
Quote:
Indeed, with the introduction of a perk like Swift Mind, Logistics moves drastically into the Magic domain (personally, I would have put Swift Mind as a perk in Enlightenment for the very same reason, besides the fact that it thematically goes well with that skill as well). One can also argue that Luck moves toward Magic with Warlock's Luck (now widely available) - so certainly, nothing is quite as clear cut as I'd like it to be.
I used to think about that, old skills were incorporated in the new ones as abilities and I am not so sure if they made the perfect choices. Suppose you love diplomacy but hate leadership, or archery while hating attack. And I am glad that some skills are not pure might or magic which is more realistic.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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HEBPEME
Hired Hero
I have TotE now!
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posted October 15, 2007 12:31 PM |
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...
Magic or might - i like a good fight
Seriously, below few observations / comments from me:
1. Dungeon lvl 1 creature is stats wise far more superious than the
other lvl 1. Growth rate is poor i admit, but their stats compensate for it and more. I did notice that noone mentioned new guys - stalkers. Well i would have to say something about them : they are insanely good and useful. Unlike scouts that are pretty useless, assasins can assist in various situations but far the best are, of course, those crazy invisible double bladed rogues - stalkers I even begun thinking whether people would start yelling BUG all over the place and here's why: yesterday i played dungeon and i immidiately upgraded to stalkers out of curiousity; to see how cool they look and check how this inisibility thing is working. Only to find out that it is absolutely crazy! On the beginning of the combat in 95% of the battles i got to act with them BEFORE any neutral shooters / casters! Therefore, i only had few stacks of stalkers in my army, turning invisible in the beginning of the combat and easily wiping out neutrals with 0 casualties. A friend i was playing with was surprised to see that and kept saying that it wasn't fair Personally, i don't see a bug or overpowered thing here, but simply a good way to preserve it's already smaller numbers compared to other factions. Whatever the case is - stalkers are fantastic. Not to mention that i used Vayshan in the game, found neckless of the blody claw, had battle frenzy and ring of vitality The guys are insance!
2.Brisk raider is a big dissapointment so far. I tried using their wheel attack and from some reason it din't work. At least i think i tried correctly Nevermind that, grims are just much better.
3.As for might / magic discussion i think you can play dungeon both ways. If a map alows it, go for light magic (all three masters), att, def, enl, luck, leadership / logistics. Plus good might artifacts and you have a great might faction. I think that might suites them fine just as magic does. I don't think that mixing those two in a same game can result in a win against a good player.
Anyway, who ever said that dungeon units are weak - has some issues They are great and strong enough, only sligthly outnumbered by other factions. That means you have to do much sacrificing to improve growth of everything you can, rush for dwellings in first week, get Ellaine or Talanar to sit, etc...
Cheers
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted October 15, 2007 12:46 PM |
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I'm not so keen on the invisible guys. Assasins are there to put poison on as many enemies as possible, and stalkers lose at least one turn until they can hit an enemy. And once they do, they are visible again and vulnerable. Same for the Shadow Mistress.
I haven't played with the other dungeon alternates so far, but they seem decent. Brisk Raiders should be pretty annoying if used right, and they still have the lizard bite. The rest seems like a matter of taste. Acidic Hydras for example are a bit weaker, but have more splash going on when they are hit in melee.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 15, 2007 12:50 PM |
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Hydras are there to take the beating anyway. They might as well dish out some damage in the process.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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