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| Thread: Might vs magic |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted October 09, 2007 12:50 PM |
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Not to mention that dungeon troops are voulnerable to hero attacks. losing 10 assasins or 5 furies hurts much more than losing 10 pimps or 5 horned ones.
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted October 09, 2007 02:08 PM |
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Quote:
i have noticed that he lacks an inexpensive unit to tank in the beginning. [...] Minos with pathetic defence and health pre-ToTE?
It's exactly the same with Inferno, there's no tank unit too, but even in the high tiers. Inferno player must use horned demons when Dungeon player must use minos, there's no other possibility and their efficiency is similar:
15 horned demons <=> 600 golds <=> 195 HP <=> damages 15-30
6 minos <=> 840 golds <=> 186 HP <=> damages 24-42
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted October 09, 2007 02:41 PM |
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Quote:
Just wanted to say that warlock's creatures are far from weak. Most of them are the best for their tier.
I don't get anybody who says that... I mean yes you are right they usually have the best stats for their tiers and prehaps some very nice abilities but that does not compensate for the low growth! It is of absolutly no use later when you stacks will be wiped out by big fast stacks just because they are so few! Again you are right when you say they are the best statewise for their tiers but that doesn't help you later... which doesn't make them weak but definetly not the strongest! As someoneelse pointed out a Dungeon with regular cretuare growth would be insane.
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R-b-t3r
Hired Hero
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posted October 09, 2007 02:43 PM |
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Quote:
It's exactly the same with Inferno, there's no tank unit too, but even in the high tiers. Inferno player must use horned demons when Dungeon player must use minos, there's no other possibility and their efficiency is similar:
15 horned demons <=> 600 golds <=> 195 HP <=> damages 15-30
6 minos <=> 840 golds <=> 186 HP <=> damages 24-42
There is a subtle difference beyond the extra 240 gold cost: inferno can gate, dungeon can't. Sylvan is the other faction that lacks a tank early (levels 1-3), not inferno. 
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted October 09, 2007 02:57 PM |
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inferno can gate, dungeon can't.
Inferno can gate only with a Demon Lord, you can play Dungeon with other hero without problem. Try a Necro, as Raven for exemple. Dungeon don't need a warlock, Inferno need a Demon Lord. IMO hero can't be include in the racial balance.
Moreover horned demon gating isn't a great help to tank. AI can shoot twice before the reinforcement. And if you play with a warlock you can cast powerful spells quickly, Attack bonus of the Demon Lord is useless to tank.
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R-b-t3r
Hired Hero
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posted October 09, 2007 03:20 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
inferno can gate, dungeon can't.
Dungeon don't need a warlock, Inferno need a Demon Lord. IMO hero can't be include in the racial balance.
That is an incorrect point of view, imo. The designers always take into account what the hero is so that balance issues would be addressed.
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Try a Necro, as Raven for exemple.
Have you ever tried cold death combined with necro SP? Raven is quite playable if you end up with a 'cold' spell.
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Moreover horned demon gating isn't a great help to tank.
Yes but it DOES help a bit.
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And if you play with a warlock you can cast powerful spells quickly,...
And that is the reason why warlock doesn't have a tank at low levels.
But still 840 gold for 186 hp "tank" ( ) with 2 defence is too much. Dungeon pays 4,5 gold for each hp in the stack, while inferno pays ~3 per hp. Gargoyles and zombies have the same ratio (3g per hp) and that makes them good tanks. Paying 1.5g more per hp is expensive and in essence you are not tanking. you miht say that golems have 5 to 1 gold to hp ratio but still they can be repaired and have 5 defence.
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted October 09, 2007 04:05 PM |
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That is an incorrect point of view, imo. The designers always take into account what the hero is so that balance issues would be addressed.
For me it's an incorrect balance of the game!
You can, for exemple, play Necro with ALL heros because undeads don't have moral: there's no problem, you just have to use a Necro to do 2 or 3 battles per week to gain undeads with necromancy. You can play Academy with a Knight and make mini-artifacts with a wizard... So most of the factions can change their strategies, but Inferno NEED gating and so Demon Lord. It's probably the same with barbarian now, which can't build mage guilde.
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Have you ever tried cold death combined with necro SP? Raven is quite playable if you end up with a 'cold' spell.
Of course, it's strong, never say the contrary. I precisely propose you to play Dungeon with a necro hero, as Raven!
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And that is the reason why warlock doesn't have a tank at low levels.
Lack of low level tank is big disadvantage for Dungeon, as for Inferno, as for Sylve. But Dungeon can recruit, later, hydras; Sylve has Ranger with good Defense (or knight) then Treants! Inferno has zero tank.
Moreover, start with Kythra and you can gain "Recruitment" rapidely, it's a BIG help for Dungeon.
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Dungeon pays 4,5 gold for each hp in the stack
Yes, but with tiers 4, 5 and 7 it's the contrary: Grim raider with 60hp, Deep hydra 125hp+regeneration, Black draon 240hp. Inferno troops have pathetic hp stats up till tier 7.
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 09, 2007 04:54 PM |
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Minotaurs are ok tanks vs low lvl shooters, in any case they don't have a growth problem. Scouts and furies are the ones that really lack in growth. Fortunately furies are so good creepers, that it makes you forget their extremely low durability in a Hero battle.
Scouts on the other hand are really far below any other lvl 1. They come in ridiculously low numbers to be of any use, even a stack of peasants does higher damage  and their tanking capacity is equally low.
Dragons on the contrary are simply the best lvl 7 out there.
Building cost might be high due to crystal needs, but now that TotE has decreased lvl 7 tier cost, they are much more viable.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 09, 2007 06:33 PM |
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Well, if you want to talk survivability of a Tier, then you need to couple the growth to the total HPs - and for ease of reference, ignore the difference in DEF for now.
Peasant: Growth 22, HP 3, makes for 66 HP / week
Conscript: Growth 22, HP 6, makes for 132 HP / week
Imp: Gr 16, HP 4, 64 HP / week
Familair: Gr 16, HP 6, 96 HP / week
Skeleton: Gr 20, HP 4, 80 HP / week
Skel. Archer: Gr 20, HP 5, 100 HP / week
Scout: Gr 7, HP 10, 70 HP / week
Assassin: Gr 7, HP 14, 98 HP / week
Gremlin: Gr 20, HP 5, 100 HP / week
Master Gr: Gr 20, HP 6, 120 HP / week
Faerie: Gr 10, HP 5, 50 HP / week
Sprite: Gr 10, HP 6, 60 HP / week
Defender: Gr 18, HP 7, 126 HP / week
Shieldguard: Gr 18, HP 12, 216 HP / week
While the Dungeon Tier1 isn't in the top, it's not at the bottom either. And something similar applies to other Tiers as well.
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 09, 2007 06:57 PM |
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maybe far below is exagerated
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted October 09, 2007 08:24 PM |
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Quote:
Well, if you want to talk survivability of a Tier, then you need to couple the growth to the total HPs - and for ease of reference, ignore the difference in DEF for now.
Peasant: Growth 22, HP 3, makes for 66 HP / week
Conscript: Growth 22, HP 6, makes for 132 HP / week
Imp: Gr 16, HP 4, 64 HP / week
Familair: Gr 16, HP 6, 96 HP / week
Skeleton: Gr 20, HP 4, 80 HP / week
Skel. Archer: Gr 20, HP 5, 100 HP / week
Scout: Gr 7, HP 10, 70 HP / week
Assassin: Gr 7, HP 14, 98 HP / week
Gremlin: Gr 20, HP 5, 100 HP / week
Master Gr: Gr 20, HP 6, 120 HP / week
Faerie: Gr 10, HP 5, 50 HP / week
Sprite: Gr 10, HP 6, 60 HP / week
Defender: Gr 18, HP 7, 126 HP / week
Shieldguard: Gr 18, HP 12, 216 HP / week
While the Dungeon Tier1 isn't in the top, it's not at the bottom either. And something similar applies to other Tiers as well.
you should also take into consideration speed, initiative,att, def, dam and specials; that way you'll see they(tier1 creatures) are pretty balanced except sylvan which is the worst for sure
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 09, 2007 09:02 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 21:02, 09 Oct 2007.
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Yes, well, if you do that, you have to take a difficulty score. All creatures have one, and I detailed it earlier in this thread - actually, my first post in it.
Edit: Oh, one thing not incorporated into it: the respective costs to buy them ...
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted October 10, 2007 08:15 AM |
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Yes, well, if you do that, you have to take a difficulty score. All creatures have one, and I detailed it earlier in this thread - actually, my first post in it.
Edit: Oh, one thing not incorporated into it: the respective costs to buy them ...
didnt't see that post
so all you have to do is multiply growth with power and we can see who is better
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 10, 2007 10:00 AM |
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Unfortuantely, power is meaningless. For example, sprites are one of the best tier 1 creatures. Their no retal, speed and initiative own walkers. Single fodders of them they can block shooters 1st turn.
Sprites are easily the best tier 1 troop(except shieldguards + runes) late game. Why? Because they fit perfectly the sylvan's 1st strike line up - with boosted speed and damage(attack artifacts, hopefully necklace of bloody claw, luck, favored, attack -> battle frenzy, nature's wrath..) they can move and hit 2-3 stacks(how much damage? Well, with luck and favored it's enough to erase 3 warlock's stacks..). Against might factions they can be used to block something 2x2 and strong(bears, palas).
So, power doesn't take take into account some "details". For example, warlock NEEDS durability badly for longer spellcasting(that's why he is forced to hit and run) and his weak creatures(except grims, hydras; Yrwanna's furies are average) are only good at being stinky corpses. Why? Because high attack NEEDS high initiative in order to be really effective.
Let's look at black dragons. Stats: amazing, but the most important stat(for a high attack and low defense hero like warlock) is just bad - only 10 initiative. For example, vs haven palas move before blackies..
Anyway, it's very clear that building black dragon's dwelling is generally a very bad move - all that gold would be much better spent on artifacts.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted October 10, 2007 10:54 AM |
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sylvan is horrible at creeping unitl hunters, while dungeon is the best
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 10, 2007 11:25 AM |
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Quote:
Let's look at black dragons. Stats: amazing, but the most important stat(for a high attack and low defense hero like warlock) is just bad - only 10 initiative. For example, vs haven palas move before blackies..
Anyway, it's very clear that building black dragon's dwelling is generally a very bad move - all that gold would be much better spent on artifacts.
Let me laugh at black dragons not being worth the money. They are extremely damaging, extremely durable creatures with no weak points, their initiative is a bit low but it's the only thing that's keeping them from being far more powerfull than other tier 7. Paladins, Emeralds , nightmares do strike first, but even if a dragon gets hit by charging units it can easily stand the first blow and retal hard. Extremely big stacks of paladins are always a concern, but the chance for them being placed in the same line as the dragons is not that high, and in worst case they can be blocked by furies or charged with raiders.
Dungeon has really 3 end game units, dragons raiders and hydras. The first 2 are very good damage dealers, and if you're skipping blackies you're giving up your most damaging unit. Dungeon without the black dragon is not dungeon to me.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 10, 2007 11:35 AM |
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Edited by sdfx at 11:36, 10 Oct 2007.
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No defense warlock will not help to "stand the first blow", sorry. No worry about haven speed either - a haven player that knows what he is doing against dungeon will fix it with aura of swiftness, tactics and familiar ground.
Also, going for late game vs haven is a suicide for dungeon - plain and simple.
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kermit
Known Hero
Soul hunter
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posted October 10, 2007 12:22 PM |
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If I follow your reasoning, heaven will win anyway with a hasted huge stack of paladins. How many empowered implosions can you cast anyway? They do cost nearly 40 mana after all, and that's for maybe 4K damage with slippers luck and around 20SP. Black Dragons have 30 def and 240hp which is alot, and they will last. Only reason hydra is the last standing unit, is because dungeon's oponent can safely ignore it, since it will never be a threat to any of his units.
Concerning familiar ground, I have to admit, I try to avoid fighting heaven on grass.
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted October 10, 2007 12:38 PM |
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It just means that it's best to invest all that money in spellpower artifacts and abuse hit and run hoping that enemy didn't get shackles. But even if shackle threat is very high, it's still better to spend money on artifacts(knowledge and spellpower) and go for destructive + summoning route: first warlock should kill high defense/strongest stuff with destructive and then switch to summoning and use phoenix, fire trap etc. No luck skill hurts(warlock's luck) but it's unpredictable anyway(enemy may get -2 luck stuff) - summoning is just more reliable in that situation. Even raise dead on hydras can be good at some point. Generally, when shackled it's often good to deal "even damage" to enemy stacks and then finish the fight with empowered arma - all creatures and enemy hero dies but warlock survives and can be bought in tavern.. so wicked.
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Zenithale
Promising
Famous Hero
Zen Mind
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posted October 10, 2007 01:43 PM |
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No defense warlock will not help to "stand the first blow", sorry.[...]Also, going for late game vs haven is a suicide for dungeon - plain and simple.
It's the same with Inferno: no more Defense, no more HP, no more SP...
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No worry about haven speed either - a haven player that knows what he is doing against dungeon will fix it with aura of swiftness, tactics and familiar ground.
Notice than in TotE Kight can't get Aura of swiftness: Skillwheel, Tactic can be nullify by Tactic, so you must just avoid grass ground.
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