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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted March 30, 2008 02:04 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 15:40, 30 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
If I mark, say, every faction with a 10/50, all I obtain is to set EVERY faction on an average lower score
Except your own.  That's the catch.
Statistically speaking.
If you lower the score of every faction in the contest except your own cause you can't vote for yourself, you basically raise your own score compared to other factions.
Every system can be misused, it's just up to your morals whether you do that or not.
EDIT
Tobius would you please define the term "copying from Heroes 5"?
I've noticed that it's your opinion that GenieLord, me and a lot of others copy a whole lot from H5 (or H4, or H3) so I thought it would be splendid if you just explained that in a bit more detail.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Golemcrafter
Promising
Famous Hero
Unlimited Fantasy Master
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posted March 30, 2008 03:47 PM |
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Just a note: Our term is to create a dream town for Heroes V and NOT to invent a totally new computer game called Heroes of Might and Magic 6. That's why we stick a little bit to HOMM 5.
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Tobius
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 04:35 PM |
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Edited by Tobius at 16:38, 30 Mar 2008.
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First of all:
This competition is about making factions for Heroes VI (look at this thread's name: ICTC III: Create a dream town for H6 ) - I think this is crystal clear!
Secondly to baklava's reproach of "misusing the system":
Do you know the Gaussian distribution? I'm firmly convinced of it. Hence it's absolutely abnormal that some jugdes have extremely high ratings on average, for example, Mytical's average is 42,75 points! If there are 50 points in total, the average should be markedly below the 30s - and so is my average rating score. Look at the visitor judges' ratings of the first ICTC, they all have been much lower than the one's we have this ICTC. Furthermore the Discretionary is more a bonus to me than a fundamental part of the overall rating. You cannot blame me for trying to rate in an objective and proper manner instead of giving almost all entries more than 40 points which is simply totally unobjective rating. I don't say that I was impeccable since there can be some rating flaws by more than 40 faction to rate, but I've given my best and I really don't like your way you try to blame me with untenable reproaches.
Thirdly to "copying from an older Heroes part":
Since our term is to make up factions for a possible Heroes 6, there have to some fundamental changes to get full points for imagination. For example, every Heroes part changed the creature system more or less. If you don't change anything with the system itself you cannot get full points in this category though you might invented a bunch of new abilities. But that's only my opinion.
P.S.
Mytical, I don't want to offend you with this, but honestly I think your ratings are somehow flawed since almost every entry gets about 40 points from you.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 04:50 PM |
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Quote:
If you don't change anything with the system itself you cannot get full points in this category though you might invented a bunch of new abilities. But that's only my opinion.
I would like to mention that I did change the system itself, and you still reduced me points for not doing that. You can't have an excuse for that. I did everything you require, and still, you didn't refer to it. 
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted March 30, 2008 04:56 PM |
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Quote:
P.S.
Mytical, I don't want to offend you with this, but honestly I think your ratings are somehow flawed since almost every entry gets about 40 points from you.
Right, because it's impossible she could be doing that well...
____________
How exactly is luck a skill?
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 04:59 PM |
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I agree with Daystar.
The quality of this ICTC's entry is very high. It is reasonable that the marks will come out so much higher than on the previous contests.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 05:09 PM |
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Quote:
Hence it's absolutely abnormal that some jugdes have extremely high ratings on average, for example, Mytical's average is 42,75 points! If there are 50 points in total, the average should be markedly below the 30s
it's like at school, not all the teachers mark in the same way.
Quote:
Since our term is to make up factions for a possible Heroes 6, there have to some fundamental changes to get full points for imagination. For example, every Heroes part changed the creature system more or less. If you don't change anything with the system itself you cannot get full points in this category though you might invented a bunch of new abilities. But that's only my opinion.
I personally think the heroes 5 system is good, that's why I didn't change it apart from the building tree.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted March 30, 2008 05:11 PM |
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Well, I have always been convinced of following some general criteria for the contest. For example, in ICTC1, where the scores were generally lower, a lower criterium would do. Now, in ICTC3, it's usual that the marks are higher. The thing is, fan contests generally have different criteria so it's up to the judges to settle that. If most of the judges use a certain way of marking, then it's weird to use another one just cause you usually use it.
That said, fundamentally changing game mechanics is an utterly risky move which is quite probable to ruin the gameplay of the faction. You can't expect over 40 contestants thinking up of completely different game mechanics just because of the possibility that Heroes 6 will differ a lot from Heroes 5.
Most contestants thought up slight to moderate changes, such as alternate magic systems, new abilities, taxation systems, prisons, war machines etcetera. If you look closely, you'll see that Heroes 5 doesn't differ a lot from Heroes 3. Every part of the saga had some minor changes and additions, which added up a bit at a time. Heroes 4 tried a gigantic leap and failed.
So all in all, flawed ratings are, IMO, those that generally stand out too much from others in the contest. Especially if people rate one's town highly, and he rates their towns lowly.
Just my 2 cents.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted March 30, 2008 05:43 PM |
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Right about now I'd like to remind everyone that it's just a contest. It's just a game. No need to fall out over a miscalculated rating or a vague explanation here or there.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted March 30, 2008 07:08 PM |
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I'll be in Next year, I promise 
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Snatch
Promising
Known Hero
Proud Kappa
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posted March 30, 2008 07:13 PM |
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It was fun! Why not make it half-yearly? 
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted March 30, 2008 07:45 PM |
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Nah! More often!!!!!
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 30, 2008 11:24 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 23:31, 30 Mar 2008.
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Quote:
Quote:
If I mark, say, every faction with a 10/50, all I obtain is to set EVERY faction on an average lower score
Except your own. That's the catch.
Statistically speaking.
If you lower the score of every faction in the contest except your own cause you can't vote for yourself, you basically raise your own score compared to other factions.
Every system can be misused, it's just up to your morals whether you do that or not.
I think you skipped the part where I said that you're going to draw negative attentions (meaning both by the mods and your competitors) in doing so. More generally, while it's true that every system can be misused, studying law teached me that abusing the holes in the system is never smart on the long term as it looks at first sight.
Let me explain why making "prejudiced" marks is idiotic and pointless... READ WELL:
I'll assume that we have three judges: RANDOMDUDE, HARSHMAN and KINDLADY. And three factions (A, B, C). Notice that kookastar said that every mark is worth more depending on how many marks in total the vistor judge made. I assume the influence of this is limited, but to prove my reasoning beyond doubt I'll assume that the value of the mark is multiplied for the number of factions marked.
Now let's assume that HARSHGUY reviews three factions with a 10/50 whereas KINDLADY with a 50/50, plus each one marks the faction of the other (D and E) - thus, their marks are worth exactly as four different marks summed up.
FACTION A gets 10/50 x 4 and 50/50 x 4.
FACTION B gets 10/50 x 4 and 50/50 x 4.
FACTION C gets 10/50 x 4 and 50/50 x 4.
Now, what is likely to happen to FACTION D and FACTION E? The entrants of these factions will very likely review both (thus, their marks are worth x2).
FACTION E by HARSHGUY is reviewed positively by KINDLADY (50/50 x 4) and, most likely, negatively from all the entrants of the other factions for vengeance (10/50 x 6).
FACTION B by KINDLADY is reviewed negatively by HARSHGUY (counts as a 10/50 x4) and positively by the other entrants out of gratitude (50/50 x6).
As you may notice, HARSGUY got away with the worst part of the deal: on average, his faction is the one with the lowst score overall. KINDLADY seems in the best position of all, so reviewing everyone with positive marks seems the best way to go to "cheat" the system, but her bet is risky (who tell they're actually going to give an high mark for gratitude rather than give her a lower mark) - she assumes that everyone is both grateful and stupid. Entrants A/B/C, who didn't review the factions for what they're worth, but just to avenge bad marks and returning good marks, didn't managed to achieve much but neutering the effect of the other two judges (on a different scenario, they can chose to review all factions too and overpower HARSGUY's and KINDLADY's relevance equally, and do whatever they want with them).
But the worst thing is that all of the above total five judges, no one of whom marked the factions objectively, can be deprived of power in one shot by RANDOMDUDE (you forgot him, huh?) who walks in and decides to give good or bad marks due to his honest evaluation of the factions, thus differentiating the scores and messing things up. In the end, RANDOMDUDE can decide who wins and who doesn't while the others tried to "cheat" and damaged only themselves doing so (things get worse if there is more than one RANDOMDUDE).
So, whoever out there is thinking to "cheat" the system to advantages himself should pretty much think twice about it - it just won't succeed at anything besides giving away your only power -the power to judge things fairly.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted March 31, 2008 06:17 AM |
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As Kookastar said, we should stay away from comments about the judging until everything is finished. If you have issues with somebody's judging IM one of the main judges FoG, TDL, or Kookastar. We can debate the judging after the contest if needed.
____________
Message received.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 06:54 AM |
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YES!
More ICTCs so i can have my revenge!
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted March 31, 2008 02:23 PM |
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ICTC's are fun. It really tests our creativity and a nice possibility to make our dreams come true 
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 03:10 PM |
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Not too often.
You don't want to get the fun out of it. 
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 03:52 PM |
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I'm seriously considering to withdraw from the contest. I've had some really, really amazing ideas for both towns and I'd like so much to show those to you guys, but I can't as long as the towns are part of the contest.
I could submit both towns again for the next ICTC (ICTC 4) but doing so would cause both factions a penality in creativity since they were already entered and judged in the previous ICTC (the current one). So retreat could be the only solution.
Ach! I'd like so much knowing what you guys think about those ideas... argh, I think in the end I'll just rebuild from scratch some completely different faction the next year, and let these two face their fate in the current contest. But it's a pity.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 06:41 PM |
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Don't give up Momo. You'll be atleast in the 10th place, and that's a good reason to stay.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 31, 2008 08:14 PM |
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Will the ICTC 4 be next year?
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This thread is pages long: 
