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JollyJoker
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posted April 02, 2009 07:07 AM |
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Dammit, Mvass, those who can read have definite advantages, you know:
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Let's say the base unit would be 10.000 $ (year) and the base 2 (to make it simple)
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Now, this is obviously a fairly simple example with simple numbers, but it get's the job done to explain the system. In reality and practise you could afford afford a smaller base than 2 and still get the job done
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a is the "start value" and b is the base of the logarithm. In the example is a=10000 and b=2, but a and b depend on how high an income you want to keep free of taxes and how high the maximum personal profit should be.
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b wouldn't have to be 2, it could be 1.8 or 2.2 or something else as well. What it was exactly, would depend on how much personal wealth you wanted people to be able to accumulate. I live in the Euro-zone, so going from the current price level (and just to make it more real), the minimum sum a person should have would be 15.000 €/year. Based on that you might make 12.500 € the base value for the formula - this would allow everyone to earn up to 25.000 € tax-free - which would be an incentive wo work even for those who got welfare -, but after that a quite progressive tax would come. You'd pick the base now with the goal to make it effectively impossible to earn more than the sum you'd deem should be the most someone might earn. Since this is AFTER taxes, I tend to think that the limit should not exceed 500.000 €/year net income for a single person, ergo you'd pick the base accordingly
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It's just a freaking example with round figures in a society where you cannot own land nor control corps via share majorities, and I said explicitely and twice that you can pick the two determining factors any which way you want it. The main thing is simply, that the more you earn the bigger the tax rate becomes for that more.
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mvassilev
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posted April 02, 2009 02:33 PM |
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I said explicitely and twice that you can pick the two determining factors any which way you want it
My point exactly. You can't perform economic calculation. Who knows what the optimal rate is? There is no way to figure it out.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 02, 2009 07:42 PM |
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What the hell are you talking about? Last time I checked we did have a tax rate, do we?
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mvassilev
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posted April 02, 2009 10:31 PM |
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Yes, but the goal of taxes is not to punish people or to redistribute wealth (although that may be a side effect) but to fund the government. Taxes are bad - they just happen to have partially good consequences because they fund the government's necessary actions. But in your suggestion, taxes are an end in themselves.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 02, 2009 11:12 PM |
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Yes, but the goal of taxes is not to punish people or to redistribute wealth (although that may be a side effect) but to fund the government. Taxes are bad - they just happen to have partially good consequences because they fund the government's necessary actions. But in your suggestion, taxes are an end in themselves.
Taxes are bad? Says who? And what do you mean with "fund the government"? What if 'WE' don't want "the government? The government isn't a natural desaster like an earth quale that you somehow have to cheat. The government is something YOU WANT because it can bundle the collective power of society if necessary to avoid natural and other desasters, to steer the boat of society through the waters of time. The government should be something to be proud of - otherwise it's not worth being called so. And the government's necessary actions, that's what society deems is necessary. It depends on what we deem necessary - WE decide about that.
Or we should - but we don't.
Jesus, "redistribute wealth". Happens all the time. Ask the Africans what happened with their natural resources. Or the people that just were evicted from their homes in the land of the free.
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mvassilev
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posted April 03, 2009 02:41 AM |
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JollyJoker
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posted April 03, 2009 07:52 AM |
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That shows the freaking misery this world has come to. What has become of the proud US that got Liberty from France? The government is supposed to represent what is good about a nation, it's not supposed to be a liability - if it was, we could get rid of it.
No game works without rules, and sadly we need someone who enforces the rules, otherwise they make no sense.
Your link is not a point against taxes - just a point against the wrong taxes.
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mvassilev
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posted April 03, 2009 02:51 PM |
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The government isn't supposed to represent what's good about a nation - there's no such thing as "what's good about a nation" anyway. There's only "what's good about the people who happen to live within a certain nation". I agree, the government needs to be the umpire - but not a player!
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JollyJoker
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posted April 03, 2009 03:06 PM |
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They don't play, no. But everything else.
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mvassilev
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posted April 03, 2009 10:50 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted April 04, 2009 08:50 AM |
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NO one owns land; the government can simply allow to make use of it, without anyone owning it.
You know, that this is semantics.
If something useful is done with taxes - build a public school, for example - who owns it?
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mvassilev
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posted April 04, 2009 04:26 PM |
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JollyJoker
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posted April 04, 2009 06:33 PM |
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The government IS everybody.
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del_diablo
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posted April 04, 2009 06:35 PM |
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The goverment is what is suppose to represent the people, aka its everybody.
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DagothGares
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posted April 04, 2009 06:43 PM |
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No, a government that claims to represent the people is a dangerous government, since you can't appease everyone (so they'll say they appease everyone: propaganda + populism). The government is the ruler of the people an depending on your political style, they can be many (unanymous government) or few (fascist dictatorship/ monarchism). Either way, the government is an autonomous tool that will be reformed every election (or every time the king dies or whatever).
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mvassilev
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posted April 04, 2009 07:23 PM |
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The government either represents the tyrannical majority or a combination of minority interest groups. Don't tell me that farm subsidies, rent controls, steel tariffs, and so on are in the interest of the majority.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 04, 2009 08:07 PM |
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Irrelevant. A school will always be owned by the community - no matter who represents it. It's "owned" by the community, that is, everyone of said community. Whether every single member of the community agrees doesn't matter.
If the brain tell the body to exercise the muscles protest as well. It's still one body.
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mvassilev
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posted April 04, 2009 08:42 PM |
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A school is a relatively small and local thing. What about bigger things? I don't feel that "everybody" owns the products of Congress's labors.
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TheDeath
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posted April 04, 2009 08:52 PM |
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No, a government that claims to represent the people is a dangerous government, since you can't appease everyone.
That's why the majority decides it? Wonderful thinking! I mean, if the government does NOT represent the people, then why do the PEOPLE vote? Someone else should, otherwise it is directly influenced by the "people". Mind you I do not like it that much.
mvass seems to be unable to make the distinction between something owned by the government and public-domain.
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No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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mvassilev
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posted April 04, 2009 08:58 PM |
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This thread is pages long: 
